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Michael Jackson and JImmy Savile...


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Old 09-05-2013, 11:57
haphash
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It is not beyond the realms of possibility but I'm starting to think that MJ was probably not a peadophile.
I on the other hand have always thought that he was. He was never attracted to women (despite his ridiculous phoney marriages) I don't believe for one second that he ever had sex with a woman as he was obviously attracted to young boys.

It depends on how you define abuse though. I don't think actual sex was involved just a bit of inappropriate touching. Still wrong though.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:04
tomclarky
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And you honestly think it's more likely that he's telling the truth now rather than before?

Wade Robson is and has been on an employee of AEG long before this case even started (I think he was a dancer for Britney Spears at one point). He's probably being paid a tidy sum by them to make these allegations.

Either way he's a liar and therefore isn't credible.

Trying to use this to somehow prove MJ was a paedophile against the huge mountain of evidence on the other side is scraping the barrell at best.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:12
tomclarky
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I on the other hand have always thought that he was. He was never attracted to women (despite his ridiculous phoney marriages) I don't believe for one second that he ever had sex with a woman as he was obviously attracted to young boys.

It depends on how you define abuse though. I don't think actual sex was involved just a bit of inappropriate touching. Still wrong though.
Never attracted to women?

I wonder why regular hetrosexual porn was found at Neverland and Lisa Presley went on record saying they had an active sex life and she wouldn't have married him if they didn't. She was even admitting that when she was trashing him in interviews after they had divorced!
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:12
i4u
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And you honestly think it's more likely that he's telling the truth now rather than before?

Wade Robson is and has been on an employee of AEG long before this case even started. He's probably being paid a tidy sum by them to make these allegations.
Just telling it like it is.

Did you have to wait for the highly paid Tom Mesereau to put that idea in your head so you had a straw to hang onto?

Why is creepy looking Tom Mesereau is still hanging around 8 years later, who's paying Tom boy?
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:16
tomclarky
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Just telling it like it is.

Did you have to wait for the highly paid Tom Mesereau to put that idea in your head so you had a straw to hang onto?

Why is creepy looking Tom Mesereau is still hanging around 8 years later, who's paying Tom boy?
Haha this is literally your only straw left in the molestation allegations and it isn't even credible.

The fact that Wade Robson has been an employee of AEG in the past is not a coincidence.

Labelling Tom Meserau 'creepy' pretty much sums up the fallaciousness of your arguments.

There's nothing more i can say on the allegations against him. Anyone with a rational brain who's been reading my posts on this thread will see that he was clearly an innocent man.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:22
haphash
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Never attracted to women?

I wonder why regular hetrosexual porn was found at Neverland and Lisa Presley went on record saying they had an active sex life and she wouldn't have married him if they didn't. She was even admitting that when she was trashing him in interviews after they had divorced!
I think you are being fooled by false evidence planted by Jackson and his team. As to Lisa she was well paid for perpetuating rumours that he was heterosexual and probably signed a binding contract.

Look its obvious you are a fan but don't be fooled by the stuff pumped out by Jackson and his team of lawyers to buoy up the image of a clean living hetero man. That is a fantasy they created, its not the reality.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:29
tomclarky
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I think you are being fooled by false evidence planted by Jackson and his team. As to Lisa she was well paid for perpetuating rumours that he was heterosexual and probably signed a binding contract.

Look its obvious you are a fan but don't be fooled by the stuff pumped out by Jackson and his team of lawyers to buoy up the image of a clean living hetero man. That is a fantasy they created, its not the reality.
You have no evidence to back up anything you say so you just make things up as you go along and hope they mean something

The evidence is that an unanounced police raid on Jackson's home found zero child pornography and only regular porn magazines. No way it could be 'planted' if they have no idea the police raid is about to happen.

As for the saying Lisa was somehow paid to say MJ was straight is just baseless nonsense. Like i say she was criticisng him left right and centre in interviews after they divorced so she clearly was saying whatever she wanted about him. For her to still insist that MJ was straight is damning against your claim he wasn't attracted to women so all you can do is make something up in your head to say she was paid to say it.
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Old 09-05-2013, 13:42
jzee
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The evidence is that an unanounced police raid on Jackson's home found zero child pornography and only regular porn magazines..
That is not true, there were 'art' photographs of naked children, Jackson also commissioned a painting of himself partially naked with naked children around him.
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Old 09-05-2013, 13:50
tomclarky
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That is not true, there were 'art' photographs of naked children, Jackson also commissioned a painting of himself partially naked with naked children around him.
Yes.. Art. They were two legally available and entirely non sexual stories about the spirit of boyhood.

That is not pornography.
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Old 09-05-2013, 13:54
RealityRocks
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I was an MJ fan (just putting that out there!) and I don't believe he was a paedophile.

He was formally accused twice of child molestation, the first time he paid off the accuser, which was a terrible decision as not only it made him look guilty it opened the floodgates for more accusations. Since this time, I believe a credible magazine has exposed the lies told by the accuser's family and the significant changes in their stories.

The second time, despite the district attorney's best efforts to 'get him' he was found innocent in a court of law.

The only risque material found in his home in a raid was adult oriented and the only other thing the prosecution could throw at him was that he had in his posession a book containing 'naked boys' - which turned out to be an art book by a famed photographer, Bruce Weber, I believe - you can buy the book in Waterstones...

If one piece of evidence was found, which proved what the prosecution couldn't, then I'd say 'OK, I was wrong'. But to call Michael Jackson a predator, I think is wrong, too. There are many, many children who say they stayed at Neverland and nothing untoward happened. The very few who did (three to my current count), all have made or will make substantial monetary gains and fame, or infamy at best.

I think MJ was mixed up, I think he acted wrong, but has anyone seen the movie 'The Hand the Rocks the Cradle'? In it the psychopathic nanny frames the mentally challenged gardener of molesting the six year old daughter of the family they both worked for. Because the gardener didn't have the capacity to defend himself, and because he was a little different, and liked being friends with children, he was automatically and wrongly assumed guilty. I see that here with MJ - no, he shouldn't have had slumber parties with kids (which included his own kids). He probably shouldn't have had a fairground and zoo in his garden (even though bus loads of underpriveleged children visited regularly whether MJ was there or not - and when he was, he'd go on the rides with them!) and he shouldn't have tried to defend his frendships with teen boys after being accused the first time - a sensible and level headed person would have seen their actions were seen by some as inappropriate. But, like the gardener, he wasn't able to comprehend how his innocent actions were seen by the wider world.

None of this, however, makes him a paedo and not one person could ever prove he was. Makes you think.
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Old 09-05-2013, 13:55
jzee
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Photos of children naked to be precise.

They were two legally available and entirely non sexual stories about the spirit of boyhood.

That is not pornography.
So he had an interest in looking at books of photos of naked children, and that was entirely unrelated to him wanting to sleep in beds & spend most of his time with children?

None of this, however, makes him a paedo and not one person could ever prove he was. Makes you think.
That he was a very wealthy & manipulative man and a lot of other people also had a lot to lose by him being found guilty.
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Old 09-05-2013, 14:05
tomclarky
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Photos of children naked to be precise.

So he had an interest in looking at books of photos of naked children, and that was entirely unrelated to him wanting to sleep in beds & spend most of his time with children?
They weren't books of naked children. They were story books. The one with a naked child on the front was to him by a fan.

If that's your proof that he was a paedophile then you're going to have to try harder i'm afraid. That wouldn't be enough to convince a jury.
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Old 09-05-2013, 14:08
tomclarky
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I was an MJ fan (just putting that out there!) and I don't believe he was a paedophile.

He was formally accused twice of child molestation, the first time he paid off the accuser,
That's a factually incorrect statement to make. Court documents from the CIVIL settlement clearly state that it in no way prevented the chandlers from testifying in any criminal trial. No criminal trial went ahead after months of investigations because there was no evidence to back up the claims.
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Old 09-05-2013, 14:18
haphash
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You have no evidence to back up anything you say so you just make things up as you go along and hope they mean something

The evidence is that an unanounced police raid on Jackson's home found zero child pornography and only regular porn magazines. No way it could be 'planted' if they have no idea the police raid is about to happen.

As for the saying Lisa was somehow paid to say MJ was straight is just baseless nonsense. Like i say she was criticisng him left right and centre in interviews after they divorced so she clearly was saying whatever she wanted about him. For her to still insist that MJ was straight is damning against your claim he wasn't attracted to women so all you can do is make something up in your head to say she was paid to say it.
You say I have no evidence but the fact is - neither do you. MJ constructed a tissue a lies around himself, some say he did, some say he didn't. You really have no more 'proof' of anything than I do, so please stop trying to insist that you are an 'expert' when really you are just a fan trying to defend his reputation.
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Old 09-05-2013, 14:30
tomclarky
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You say I have no evidence but the fact is - neither do you. MJ constructed a tissue a lies around himself, some say he did, some say he didn't. You really have no more 'proof' of anything than I do, so please stop trying to insist that you are an 'expert' when really you are just a fan trying to defend his reputation.
Everything i say about the allegations made against him is based on evidence, testimony or court documents from the trial, or other reputable sources of information. You just make things up in your head as you go along
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Old 09-05-2013, 14:50
haphash
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Everything i say about the allegations made against him is based on evidence, testimony or court documents from the trial, or other reputable sources of information. You just make things up in your head as you go along
And you seem unable to accept that the 'evidence' you quote is not reputable at all.
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Old 09-05-2013, 14:55
tomclarky
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And you seem unable to accept that the 'evidence' you quote is not reputable at all.
Examples...

I'd like to see some hard evidence from you that Lisa Presley was 'paid to say that MJ was heterosexual' even though she freely said loads of negative things about him on TV.
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Old 09-05-2013, 15:08
haphash
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Examples...

I'd like to see some hard evidence from you that Lisa Presley was 'paid to say that MJ was heterosexual' even though she freely said loads of negative things about him on TV.
Well I wasn't present in the bedroom and neither were you. You think he's straight and I don't. Its all opinion.

Celebs constantly lie in interviews and on TV have you not yet grasped this? You cannot claim that this is real 'evidence'.
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Old 09-05-2013, 15:23
tomclarky
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Well I wasn't present in the bedroom and neither were you. You think he's straight and I don't. Its all opinion.

Celebs constantly lie in interviews and on TV have you not yet grasped this? You cannot claim that this is real 'evidence'.
Haha pathetic.
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Old 09-05-2013, 15:28
haphash
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Not pathetic at all. I have voiced my opinion but as a uber fan you just can't accept that Jackson wasn't a clean living heterosexual man as he liked to lead everyone to believe. I think you are in the minority if you believe this to be true now.
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Old 09-05-2013, 15:52
tomclarky
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Not pathetic at all. I have voiced my opinion but as a uber fan you just can't accept that Jackson wasn't a clean living heterosexual man as he liked to lead everyone to believe. I think you are in the minority if you believe this to be true now.
Again, you resort to trying to undermine my opinion by saying i'm just 'a fan', aka the ad hominem fallacy.

If you state an opinion then it is your job to back it up by way of evidence, which you're unable to do. My opinion, that he was heterosexual, is backed up by numerous statements of people that knew him.

For example,

-Teddy Riley has said how Michael would have often have women in the studio with him when they were recording.
-His former bodyguards have said that there were times they were with MJ and they would pick up an unknown woman and that they heard kissing in the back of the car.
-Heterosexual porn magazines found at Neverland during a raid
-Multiple interviews with Lisa Presley
-He himself descibes Brooke shields as "the love of his life"

The only people who have accused him of being a child molester have been proven to be only interested in money or were found to be liars on the witness stand.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:05
haphash
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Again, you resort to trying to undermine my opinion by saying i'm just 'a fan', aka the ad hominem fallacy.

If you state an opinion then it is your job to back it up by way of evidence, which you're unable to do. My opinion, that he was heterosexual, is backed up by numerous statements of people that knew him.

For example,

-Teddy Riley has said how Michael would have often have women in the studio with him when they were recording.
-His former bodyguards have said that there were times they were with MJ and they would pick up an unknown woman and that they heard kissing in the back of the car.
-Heterosexual porn magazines found at Neverland during a raid
-Multiple interviews with Lisa Presley
-He himself descibes Brooke shields as "the love of his life"

The only people who have accused him of being a child molester have been proven to be only interested in money or were found to be liars on the witness stand.
These people you quote above were all employees and paid lackeys. You seem unable to accept that what you quote as evidence could all be a complete fiction paid for by Jackson.

Women in the recording studio fans. As for the heterosexual porn mags, that cries cover up to me. Why would you have them lying around especially in a place where children were regularly invited?

I remain suspicious and sceptical of all things MJ ever put out to the press and can see that we are not going to agree on this.
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:08
tomclarky
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These people you quote above were all employees and paid lackeys. You seem unable to accept that what you quote as evidence could all be a complete fiction paid for by Jackson.

Women in the recording studio fans. As for the heterosexual porn mags, that cries cover up to me. Why would you have them lying around especially in a place where children were regularly invited?

I remain suspicious and sceptical of all things MJ ever put out to the press and can see that we are not going to agree on this.
A cover up, even though he had no idea the raid was going to happen. Right..
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Old 09-05-2013, 16:20
haphash
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A cover up, even though he had no idea the raid was going to happen. Right..
Yes. He was terrified of anyone accusing him of being gay. The terrible homophobia he would have faced and the reaction of his ultra religious family. Its a shame but I really believe that he lived a lie.
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