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Michael Jackson and JImmy Savile...


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Old 25-10-2012, 23:07
KatManDooo
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Yes, he slept with young boys but this does not mean he was a paedophile. He may or may not have been one, I've no idea and no one else does (except for the boys who slept with him)

The poster I quoted said he was a paedophile,(stating this as fact) and this is what I was questioning. How does she know? My guess is... she doesn't, therefore she is only making assumptions.

Assumptions and facts have different meanings. if a person views assumptions and facts in the same light, then they come across as confused, lacking understanding and intelligence.

The weight of reliable evidence presented, for example JC's accurate description of his erect penis, Gavin's assertion that he stored his underwear (and which was revealed in the legal documents to have been a part of his MO), the photograph of a naked Jonathan Spence, his multitude of books featuring pictures of naked boys, his late night calls requesting that the chosen boys spend the night with him, and his passing them over for younger models once they started to turn into young men, his sharing of his bed with little boys for over 700 nights, the couple on train who heard strange noises coming from his carriage when he was alone there with a child (as referred to in the FBI files) - these are just a smattering of the clues that, when put together, are too coincidental to make him anything other than not just a paedophile but quite probably also a child molester.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:17
tediouslyrandom
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The weight of reliable evidence presented, for example JC's accurate description of his erect penis, Gavin's assertion that he stored his underwear (and which was revealed in the legal documents to have been a part of his MO), the photograph of a naked Jonathan Spence, his multitude of books featuring pictures of naked boys, his late night calls requesting that the chosen boys spend the night with him, and his passing them over for younger models once they started to turn into young men, his sharing of his bed with little boys for over 700 nights, the couple on train who heard strange noises coming from his carriage when he was alone there with a child (as referred to in the FBI files) - these are just a smattering of the clues that, when put together, are too coincidental to make him anything other than not just a paedophile but quite probably also a child molester.
Indeed, had money and influence to get away with it.

Imagine yourself, you are told your thoughts and feelings are against society, you either comply or you try to find ways around it.

Paedophilia is as common as adult heterosexuality, we as a society have deemed adult heterosexuality as the 'norm'.

The people attracted to children need to understand that what they feel and think is against society laws and morality.

If you are unable to live by society laws and morality, be chemically castrated so you are not a harm to others.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:29
KatManDooo
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....but on the other hand, there are some things in life that you do need to have seen first hand to know it's true - the Michael Jackson case has proven that.

Anyway, here's an interesting article I found.....

http://druhepkins.hubpages.com/hub/W...on-Is-Innocent

I'm not a MJ fan but still found it interesting.
Written by a fan and full of emotive half truths and untruths. That article is opinion based, not fact based and it gives only a one sided and distorted image of Michael Jackson.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:33
KatManDooo
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I admit it dosen't look good however why did these parents let their child sleep in the same bed as him?.
Because they knew he would give them gifts and fund a lifestyle they could only dream of.
They took advantage in my opinion I still believe michael was gay and this was his way of expressing his same sex feelings.
As pointed out no-one said anything when elvis had a 14 yr old girlfriend we will never know the truth about michael.
Those parents were dysfunctional and that made it all the easier for Michael Jackson to abuse their child. I have lost count of the number of people that say 'if that was my child I would never have taken the money', and that is precisely why he targeted those particular families. Never forget that he paid out twice so as to make this problem go away.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:38
whatever54
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Indeed, had money and influence to get away with it.

Imagine yourself, you are told your thoughts and feelings are against society, you either comply or you try to find ways around it.

Paedophilia is as common as adult heterosexuality
, we as a society have deemed adult heterosexuality as the 'norm'.

The people attracted to children need to understand that what they feel and think is against society laws and morality.

If you are unable to live by society laws and morality, be chemically castrated so you are not a harm to others.
surely you phrased that wrong, I don't bury my head in the sand and know is probably more prevalent than joe public thinks. But as common as hetrosexuality
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:38
KatManDooo
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Indeed, had money and influence to get away with it.

Imagine yourself, you are told your thoughts and feelings are against society, you either comply or you try to find ways around it.

Paedophilia is as common as adult heterosexuality, we as a society have deemed adult heterosexuality as the 'norm'.

The people attracted to children need to understand that what they feel and think is against society laws and morality.

If you are unable to live by society laws and morality, be chemically castrated so you are not a harm to others.
Is it as common as heterosexuality? I'd like to see some statistics which back that up.

And I don't agree that we deem heterosexuality to be the 'norm'. I hope that we all accept that sexual relations should be between two consenting people, neither of which have been coerced into the relationship, and both of whom share an equal respect for one another.

Whether they be heterosexual or homosexual doesn't matter, but if it is an adult engaging sexually with a child it always matters.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:43
Saltydog1955
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Paedophilia is as common as adult heterosexuality, we as a society have deemed adult heterosexuality as the 'norm'.
What utter twaddle.

If that was the case, every other person would be a paedophile.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:44
tediouslyrandom
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Is it as common as heterosexuality? I'd like to see some statistics which back that up.

And I don't agree that we deem heterosexuality to be the 'norm'. I hope that we all accept that sexual relations should be between two consenting people, neither of which have been coerced into the relationship, and both of whom share an equal respect for one another.

Whether they be heterosexual or homosexual doesn't matter, but if it is an adult engaging sexually with a child it always matters.
You may not see heterosexuality as the 'norm' but you are living in a society that does, look around you, what do you see?

Homosexuality was illegal at one point, society thought it perverted.

We are what society dictates.

MPs are all church going Christians because they know society is still mainly Christian, if we were all Atheists, MPs would be Atheist - they go with the populous for votes.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:45
tediouslyrandom
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What utter twaddle.

If that was the case, every other person would be a paedophile.
Not twaddle. Think first, post later.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:50
KatManDooo
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I really like that site. Parts of it are a little bit sentimental which I feel spoils the overall knowledge contained, but the research is really good.

It suggests reading Topix which I did, but it seems that all they are intent on doing there is insulting one another. I don't know of any other forums which offer discussion on this subject. Have you come across any? I'd love to chat through these things (primarily because I find the Michael Jackson fan sites so nauseating) but internet searches lead me nowhere. If you have any leads I'll be glad to follow them.
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:52
KatManDooo
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You may not see heterosexuality as the 'norm' but you are living in a society that does, look around you, what do you see?
When I look around me I see relationships between heterosexuals and homosexuals. Don't you?
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:53
whatever54
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Not twaddle. Think first, post later.
you'll be telling us beastiality is as common as being gay or bisexual next-I am purely using that as an example of your bizarre rationale
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Old 25-10-2012, 23:57
Saltydog1955
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Not twaddle. Think first, post later.
Perhaps you could quantify your 'findings' with some figures?
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Old 26-10-2012, 00:04
Chabby_Boona
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you'll be telling us beastiality is as common as being gay or bisexual next-I am purely using that as an example of your bizarre rationale
Aren't all sex acts 'normal' unless we are told otherwise?

You are too used to living in a society. Think away from that, remember you're still basically an animal that has been taught rules and regulations - we hardly question, we just accept.
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Old 26-10-2012, 00:17
i4u
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He was in some ways - why would someone who has been accused of child abuse openly admit he slept with children in the same bed -.......

If MJ was an abuser then he didn't see himself that way I think JS just didn't give a monkeys for anyone but himself - in that almost certainly they were different. MJ also had some geunine friends like Elizabeth Taylor I don't think JS did.
Was he naive or calculating, if he felt it was ok to share his bed with young boys why did he not begin his campaign till 2003 rather than in the 1980s or early 90's?

Mother's were not aware their children had slepted alone with Michael, Wade Robson's mother only discovered the truth at the molestation trial.

The pattern seemed to be for Michael to take the kids off, provide them with treats and return 2-3 hours later. I believe this provided Michael with the opportunity to plant the idea the child could ask his mum if he could stay overnight.

Bouyed up the child pleads to be allowed to spend the night with Michael having fun....Michael sits back innocently having let the child do the persuading.

Unlike Savile, Michael appears to have formed relationships, but he seems to play off families against each other creating a court of chosen ones around himself.
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Old 26-10-2012, 00:37
whatever54
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Aren't all sex acts 'normal' unless we are told otherwise?

You are too used to living in a society. Think away from that, remember you're still basically an animal that has been taught rules and regulations - we hardly question, we just accept.
quite possibly, you raise an interesting point. Maybe if I was born a hundred years ago I would think it totally acceptable to have sex with my pet dog (I have no idea). Evolution society moves on and attitudes and views change. In society today I do not think it is as common to be a paedophile as hetrosexual (or homosexual/bisexual) and have no problem with that, hooray for evolution and the development of society
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Old 26-10-2012, 01:04
Chabby_Boona
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quite possibly, you raise an interesting point. Maybe if I was born a hundred years ago I would think it totally acceptable to have sex with my pet dog (I have no idea). Evolution society moves on and attitudes and views change. In society today I do not think it is as common to be a paedophile as hetrosexual (or homosexual/bisexual) and have no problem with that, hooray for evolution and the development of society
A pervert is only a pervert because as a society we have decided it's perverted.

Queen Victoria used to dabble in drugs,smoked opium, at the time it was seen as 'normal' now she would be described as a druggie and drug taker.

Yet she was the Queen of an Empire...
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Old 26-10-2012, 01:16
skp20040
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Similar situation?

Created Neverland which attracted children to his home, children competiting to be chosen to sleep with Michael, often seen openly hand in hand with young boys...yet fans saw nothing wrong?

He made costly settlements, when taken to court revealed he'd slepted in the same bed alone with a boy as young as 7 without the parents knowing.

Michael worked endlessly raising millions for charities especially childrens.

When Michael was proscecuted children who claimed to have been abused refused to testify, similarly with Jimmy Savile police could not take cases forward because complainents refused to provide further evidence.

Would Jimmy Savile had hired the finest lawyers and got off, and having done that made it clear he was truly untouchable by the law?
I do believe he was, silly in the way he behaved as it could so easily have been misinterpreted as it often was and he left himself wide open, but I do think ( I could be wrong of course ) he was just a child who never grew up and felt safer with younger people bearing in mind how so many adults had treated him. There are as many differences as there are similarities.
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Old 26-10-2012, 01:30
whatever54
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A pervert is only a pervert because as a society we have decided it's perverted.

Queen Victoria used to dabble in drugs,smoked opium, at the time it was seen as 'normal' now she would be described as a druggie and drug taker.

Yet she was the Queen of an Empire...
I see your point yes but as I say society has evolved. Coca-cola used to have cocaine in I believe seems hard to believe now. The OP stated paedophiles were as common as hetrosexuals. No mention of back in the day etc but as if was current reflection of society and I don't think that's true (I certainly hope not).
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Old 26-10-2012, 01:37
Chabby_Boona
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I do believe he was, silly in the way he behaved as it could so easily have been misinterpreted as it often was and he left himself wide open, but I do think ( I could be wrong of course ) he was just a child who never grew up and felt safer with younger people bearing in mind how so many adults had treated him. There are as many differences as there are similarities.
Michael Jackson thought of himself as a child, he interacted with children more than with adults. I'd imagine he fought sexual urges against his need to be childlike.

I was sexually active aged 10 years old, we played 'Doctors and Nurses' first showing private parts then further. I lost my virginity aged 14.

I'm not giving Michael Jackson an excuse, but if he is mentally thinking he is a child and prefers children to interact with then his suggested paedophilia isn't actually paedophilia, but a man with childlike thoughts and behaviour - basically he thought he was 14 years old hanging around with people of his 'mental age'.

Jimmy Savile is different, he was aware of his liking for children, he was not acting childlike, he was an adult, thought as an adult and lusted after young girls to abuse.
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Old 26-10-2012, 01:46
Chabby_Boona
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I see your point yes but as I say society has evolved. Coca-cola used to have cocaine in I believe seems hard to believe now. The OP stated paedophiles were as common as hetrosexuals. No mention of back in the day etc but as if was current reflection of society and I don't think that's true (I certainly hope not).
We follow laws, we are controlled, without control there would be anarchy. Last year's riots was an an ideal of life without laws. Judges gave six months jail to a guy who nicked a bottle of water. Why? Because Judges wanted to make it clear that if you riot on the streets of the UK you will go to jail.

Society rules, politicians beg for votes and act like they want to help us and act like they are our best friend, because they know society is in charge.

Conservative MPs are all for same sex marriages these days, 20 years ago they were voting against lowering the age of homosexual sexual consent from 21 to 16. Why? Because their voters weren't ready to accept homosexuals.

Society now not only accepts homosexuals, they want them to have the same rights and why the government is warring with the Church of England, the church is against what society actually thinks for the first time ever. Since Jacobean times religion has played a part in politics, our whole political ideas are based around Christianity and being in awe of and being frightened of a God.

Society is slowly becoming Atheist and scientific minded when it comes to who we are and where we are from and what we are deciding to do with our future.
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Old 26-10-2012, 06:23
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The comparison to Jimmy Savile is something that annoys me. Firstly, Michael Jackson was treated so unfairly by the mass media and wasn't protected by no big co-operation, despite how much money he made for them. Jimmy Savile's actions were kept in the dark, people knew and let it go on because apparently he was 'too powerful' to take down. It took him to die for people to finally come out and say 'Yes, we knew'. Where as in Michael's case many distanced themselves from him, joined in with the circus and the media had him as guilty before he was even given a chance.
To have people say Jimmy got away with it like Michael is completely false. Michael got away with absolutely nothing. For 20 years he was stressed by the allegations, and the past 10 years he was hardly ever given the benefit of the doubt by mass media. Jimmy Savile was protected by the mass media. Why?
Aphrodite Jones a reporter even spoke of the way the media went against Michael from the get go. She was asked to report on the trial, and thought he was guilty. She was ready to see him go to jail or atleast be destroyed... but as time went on her views changed, because what she saw in the courtoom was nothing like what was being reported, her opinion changed from guilty to innocent. She has a book Michael Jackson Conspiracy. It came out in 2007, but there's a new version coming out. It's a really interesting read, it's unbiased, and has court transcripts.

The Arvizo's are proven liars and con artists. They flocked from celebrity to celebrity and stupidly Michael took them under his wing. That family took advantage of his good nature.
I do find it highly suspicious, that they had lied uner oath before. Janet Arvizo claimed a security guard assaulted her and twisted her nipples 29 times, or a specific number like that. She had bruises on her body and took pictures to prove her case. Her sons both gave their stories of the abuse... this was all proven to be a lie. The bruises were not from security at all.

When Michael's documentary with Bashir aired, the Arvizos were on Michaels side. They recorded a rebuttal video and stuck up for Michael saying he was there when nobody else was... then they changed their story. They said they were forced to do that video tape, and that they were held hostage at Neverland. They weren't allowed to leave ever, and were kept from being told the time... despite the fact that clocks are all over the grounds and inside the rooms of the ranch. Despite the fact that the fences that prevent the public and anyone from getting out or in were about 4 feet high made out of wood. Despite the fact that Janet Arvizo was seen driving in and out at her own according going to salons and getting her nails done and having full body waxes or whatever else it was she got.
The Arvizo's do not sit right with me. Yes, they were teen boys, and Gavin was ill, but that doesn't mean they are innocent children who wouldn't lie. They said they knew absolutely nothing about sex, and not even masturbation... that Michael taught them to masturbate, that he said it was healthy for males to get a release. This was proven to be false when it came out it was actually Gavins's Grandmother who told him that.
The Chandlers are too... well Evan Chandler, people who seem like they had something to gain. What family asks for money? I also found this just now.

“I met him several times in the 1990s. I had lots of secret meetings with Evan Chandler, trying to get to the bottom of what was going on. I was pretty young, sort of green and wish I had my present level of expertise to be able to have applied back then. I have stories about that guy that I have never even published. He was about as inconsistent as they come. He was so determined to get me on his side, I thought he was just a tad scary. If you read my book you sort of get how I felt — feel — about him. When it came out, he called me screaming at me for not just buying his story 100%.
He actually threatened me, and I thought… okay, pal, now I know who you really are. I wish it had all been handed differently. To be honest, I wish MJ had never settled, and I told Michael that several times. But… he felt he had to save his life, and I understood that, too. He really was in bad shape. However, I wish it had gone to trial so we could have had real evidence presented in a court of law – like the Arvizo nonsense — and then really been able to sort through it and come to some real decisions. It all seems so useless now, though, doesn’t it? And such a shame.” Randy Taraborralli

There's too many sleezy fishy things around these allegations towards Michael.

Also, this isn't promotion but google Larry Nimmer, he shot footage of NEverland for the court case and it's really interesting what his documentary has, it has Gavins police interview, the Arvizos rebuttal tape, interviews with the Jury etc. It's really a great insight to the trial other than what you hear on tv or read in the papers.
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Old 26-10-2012, 06:43
Stockingfiller
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Was just looking at figuresre numbers of children abused given on the intothelight.org.uk site. Some people might be surprised.
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Old 26-10-2012, 08:38
chavet
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,,,

The Arvizo's are proven liars and con artists.

...
"I have had my nose altered twice and I recently added a cleft to my chin, but that is it. Period."
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Old 26-10-2012, 08:38
Rogue277
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I really like that site. Parts of it are a little bit sentimental which I feel spoils the overall knowledge contained, but the research is really good.

It suggests reading Topix which I did, but it seems that all they are intent on doing there is insulting one another. I don't know of any other forums which offer discussion on this subject. Have you come across any? I'd love to chat through these things (primarily because I find the Michael Jackson fan sites so nauseating) but internet searches lead me nowhere. If you have any leads I'll be glad to follow them.
I tried Topix but I didn't like it. I haven't come across any forums either, but there is another blog I found interesting.


http://desireespeakssolisten.blogspot.co.uk/
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