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Old 05-11-2012, 16:08
Collins1965
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Can any of you give me an answer to this - am I right in thinking that Jack Harkness was able to transport other people along with himself with his TVM? I seem to vaguely remember that happening.

If that is so then why didn't River use hers to save Rory and Amy from the hotel room at Winter's Quay in TATM???

Surely she could have gotten them out that way - or when she "sent" the manuscript to Amy to publish could she have taken them with her then??

I guess I'm just finding it hard to accept that even if for some reason the Doctor could not get to them, surely River could.....
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Old 05-11-2012, 16:13
cat666
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I struggle too. The explanation was that the time vortex around New York was too dangerous to land in, but nothing was stopping Rory and Amy from being picked up elsewhere.
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Old 05-11-2012, 16:13
Corwin
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Can any of you give me an answer to this - am I right in thinking that Jack Harkness was able to transport other people along with himself with his TVM? I seem to vaguely remember that happening.

If that is so then why didn't River use hers to save Rory and Amy from the hotel room at Winter's Quay in TATM???

Surely she could have gotten them out that way - or when she "sent" the manuscript to Amy to publish could she have taken them with her then??

I guess I'm just finding it hard to accept that even if for some reason the Doctor could not get to them, surely River could.....
Jack's was used to transport 3 people (him, the Doctor and Martha) but only after the Doctor upgraded it a bit.

As to why River/The Doctor did not do this (or at least try) I guess they did not want to mess with a fixed point in time after what happened in Utah.
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Old 05-11-2012, 16:17
Collins1965
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I struggle too. The explanation was that the time vortex around New York was too dangerous to land in, but nothing was stopping Rory and Amy from being picked up elsewhere.
I thought the Doctor said he could not bring the Tardis back there because of the difficulties with the time vortex around NY in 1938 but I also thought that River made a point of saying that her Time Votex Manipulator didn't have that problem??
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Old 05-11-2012, 16:19
Collins1965
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Jack's was used to transport 3 people (him, the Doctor and Martha) but only after the Doctor upgraded it a bit.

As to why River/The Doctor did not do this (or at least try) I guess they did not want to mess with a fixed point in time after what happened in Utah.
Thanks, I remember that now. This whole fixed point in time thing drives me mad! It is such a cop out on the part of the writers, imho.
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Old 05-11-2012, 18:32
Sara_Peplow
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I feel the same way. There could have been so many ways to rescue or at least try and rescue them. Think Amy and Rory deserved better then to become victims of the weeping angels.
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Old 05-11-2012, 19:12
kyllerbuzcut
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It could be that the clue is in the name. There has to be some kind of vortex there to manipulate? Presumably there isn't one around in all places in all times? You must have to know where they are. Perhaps they have Time Vortex Detectors built in to them. Of course time lords are a bit 'timey wimey' and are like walking Time vortexes or something, so can make them work better just by being around them. Similarly with people who have lived in, or even been conceived inside the tardis ( like River)
Just an idea. Does that square up any loopholes?

And yeah- after what happened in series 6 there's a good reason not to go messing around with stuff that are 'supposed to happen'.
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Old 05-11-2012, 20:23
jenzie
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amy and rory HAD to die, to create the paradox, therefore rescuing them using the TVM would have been fruitless to the end result!

there
simple really
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:34
johnnysaucepn
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It could be that the clue is in the name. There has to be some kind of vortex there to manipulate? Presumably there isn't one around in all places in all times?
There is. There is only one Time Vortex (at least in this universe), and it's what the TARDIS travels through all the time. The big swirly tunnel we always see it flying through in the opening titles. I feel safe saying this as it's always referred to as 'the' Time Vortex, rather than 'a' Time Vortex.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:51
cat666
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amy and rory HAD to die, to create the paradox, therefore rescuing them using the TVM would have been fruitless to the end result!

there
simple really
Rory was the only one who had to die, aged 80ish in New York, for the paradox to work. He can do whatever the hell he likes in the 50 odd years in between, as long as he dies at that moment in that place.

The whole reason the Doctor can't go back is limited to time, nothing at all to do with space. This means that a short trip away from New York would allow them to be rescued.

I've said it before, but I would rather Amy and Rory have been saved, but then turn to the Doctor and tearfully say that they cannot carry on travelling with him anymore and want to start a normal family. I guess that was too RTD for the Moffs liking though.
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Old 06-11-2012, 13:41
TRT1968
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Rory was the only one who had to die, aged 80ish in New York, for the paradox to work. He can do whatever the hell he likes in the 50 odd years in between, as long as he dies at that moment in that place.

The whole reason the Doctor can't go back is limited to time, nothing at all to do with space. This means that a short trip away from New York would allow them to be rescued.

I've said it before, but I would rather Amy and Rory have been saved, but then turn to the Doctor and tearfully say that they cannot carry on travelling with him anymore and want to start a normal family. I guess that was too RTD for the Moffs liking though.

This is why DOAS ranks higher than TATM! No complex timey-wimey tissue-thin paradoxes etc etc
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Old 06-11-2012, 13:48
johnnysaucepn
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The whole reason the Doctor can't go back is limited to time, nothing at all to do with space. This means that a short trip away from New York would allow them to be rescued.
Could have. If the Doctor hadn't been deliberately told that he didn't.
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Old 06-11-2012, 17:40
kyllerbuzcut
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Yeah. The whole thing with actually seeing that Rory was in his grave in the graveyard meant that it had to happen that way. Once he knew about it then he couldn't change it because it had already happened. If he changed it then it wouldn't have happened that way and he wouldn't have wanted to change it (paradox). AND as had been stated in the episode they had created a paradox to remove the angel farm/hotel. It could have caused a black hole or something and made a big hole where the big apple should have been. It could be a big reason as to WHY that period in New York is very unstable time wise. A possible effect of that paradox. Or maybe it just added to what was already there.
SO- ......to go and start trying to tamper even more, when they were lucky that they hadn't wiped millions of people out of existence already in the past half hour, well they weren't about to try it.

Oh yeah Johnnysaucepan- I think you are right about the vortex actually, but it might not rule the previous theory out entirely.
It could be like a tunnel network of wormholes or something. But MAYBE it still isn't everywhere. It could be that the TARDIS, since it is time AND space can travel through space to the nearest entry point or something, whereas a vortex manipulator, since it is on a persons wrist has to be actually taken somewhere near to an entry point. Maybe better ones can be miles away but crap ones have to be right near by or something.
Anyway it's all just speculation
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Old 06-11-2012, 18:59
sebbie3000
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Rory was the only one who had to die, aged 80ish in New York, for the paradox to work. He can do whatever the hell he likes in the 50 odd years in between, as long as he dies at that moment in that place.

The whole reason the Doctor can't go back is limited to time, nothing at all to do with space. This means that a short trip away from New York would allow them to be rescued.

I've said it before, but I would rather Amy and Rory have been saved, but then turn to the Doctor and tearfully say that they cannot carry on travelling with him anymore and want to start a normal family. I guess that was too RTD for the Moffs liking though.
No. That happening was removed when Amy and Rory threw themselves off the building. He no longer needs to die in that building in his eighties at that point. He is now free to die as and when he pleases, as the paradox they created by averting his dying in that hotel stopped the hotel from being an angel food farm. He just has to be buried in that cemetery - or just have a headstone placed there.

We know that they can't be rescued, because he read that they can't. As was established earlier on in the episode.
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Old 07-11-2012, 01:31
spiney2
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i always thought the acronym tardis clearly referred to minkowski space-time. so when did the vortex idea 1st appear ?
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Old 07-11-2012, 01:33
spiney2
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at one point didnt david tennant decide he could break the laws of time if he wanted to?
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:32
AdelaideGirl
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Yeah but it led to his death.

My understanding has been that a whole raft of time manipulations, paradoxes etc were possible when there were Time Lords to smooth out problems and stop things fracturing like in Father's Day. But their loss means less is possible, although how much less is not clear and in some ways the Doctor is testing the boundaries. So maybe he could do all the things we are suggesting but isn't prepared to risk it.
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