[Calibans Dream]

"The first part of a two-part event, Fear and Faith is an extraordinary film looking at what happens when people have the experience of fear removed through the use of a powerful new drug."


So yet more examples of what the mind can do if conditioned with the help of outside influences. (Placebos, Advertising, Hypnosis, etc.)

Or is everyone just on Casting-call and playing along?

Discuss...

[pjc229]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

So yet more examples of what the mind can do if conditioned with the help of outside influences. (Placebos, Advertising, Hypnosis, etc.)

I'd have gone with "remember it's a magician's show, so don't believe everything (actually - anything) you see, you're probably being tricked somewhere", but each to their own

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by pjc229

I'd have gone with "remember it's a magician's show, so don't believe everything (actually - anything) you see, you're probably being tricked somewhere", but each to their own

But that can also be said about the X Factor. Who knows what they get up to behind the scenes on that.

But no, nothing put on TV can ever be taken as fact, however the complete opposite is just as equally valid, something that is shown may also be complete fact.

Having said that, we do have many case studies of the placebo effect that have supported such changes in some people and we have my knowledge of hypnosis which all come under a broader banner of psychology. (A much studied field)

[Abewest]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

But that can also be said about the X Factor. Who knows what they get up to behind the scenes on that.

But no, nothing put on TV can ever be taken as fact, however the complete opposite is just as equally valid, something that is shown may also be complete fact.

Having said that, we do have many case studies of the placebo effect that have supported such changes in some people and we have my knowledge of hypnosis which all come under a broader banner of psychology. (A much studied field)

Who's "we"?

If I remember correctly you tended to go off on one on the other thread when someone used the term "we".

And a slight correction is called for here: We have your unfounded *claims* about your knowledge of hypnosis.

That's all. Nothing more.

[pjc229]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

But that can also be said about the X Factor. Who knows what they get up to behind the scenes on that.

Absolutely.

But it's probably a little more pertinent in the case of a magician who regularly dresses up magic tricks as being (falsely) based in psychology, isn't it?

[elgransenor1]

if you had a drug that would completely remove fear, it would be extremely dangerous for anyone taking it, so it sounds like more bollox.

you'd be walking in front of cars, eating poisonous mushrooms, etc. bit like the film "fearless" with jeff bridges.

[pjc229]

Originally Posted by elgransenor1

if you had a drug that would completely remove fear, it would be extremely dangerous for anyone taking it, so it sounds like more bollox.

Well, yes. He'll tell them that they're taking some experimental new drug which obliterates their fears. Then they actually will lose all their fears but it won't be anything to do with the drug, which is a placebo, but instead down to Derren's trademark mindbuggery, which naturally he'll describe in a way to make you go "hmm, yeah, that sounds plausible I guess".

Actually, he'll be tricking them in some way, while simultaneously also tricking you at home into thinking that he's really doing what he describes, whereas in fact he will have done something quite different.

(I'm guessing of course, seeing as I haven't seen the show yet!)

Sounds promising though - provided we can avoid the "I'm going to hypnotise you into doing something with no awareness/memory" shite.

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by Abewest

Who's "we"?

If I remember correctly you tended to go off on one on the other thread when someone used the term "we".

And a slight correction is called for here: We have your unfounded *claims* about your knowledge of hypnosis.

That's all. Nothing more.

"We" in this case means everyone. So a correct usage.

If you don't wish you make use of it, then that is entirely up to you. Is however negates nothing.

Seriously if you are unable to discern by yourself about the fact that I have knowledge of that subject, them it's not my position to sit here convincing you. It's just a case that you don't want to acknowledge it as it doesn't go along with the amateurish nonsense that you have to say.

Read it and use it or don't - entirely up to you. But it's nonsense to dismiss everything that doesn't support you crackpot theories.

So nice to see that on a thread about tonight's show your first contribution is to attack me and try and disprove anything I have to say. It's easy to discern what you are up to.

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by elgransenor1

if you had a drug that would completely remove fear, it would be extremely dangerous for anyone taking it, so it sounds like more bollox.

you'd be walking in front of cars, eating poisonous mushrooms, etc. bit like the film "fearless" with jeff bridges.

Not in the controlled environment that this will be held in.

The particular fear will be identified and it's only that fear that will be tested after taking the 'New Drug'.

Remember this is a control piece of light entertainment not real world medicine. Claims will be made and things said that are not necessarily true in any way.

"Here we have an empty box" said by a magician can validly mean 'It is empty at the moment but won't be for long', or 'it's not empty at all but just looks like it it' or even the psychological angle where you think you have been shown the entire box but in fact you have not. And that is where the elephant is.

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by pjc229

Absolutely.

But it's probably a little more pertinent in the case of a magician who regularly dresses up magic tricks as being (falsely) based in psychology, isn't it?

Well I can't comment about you, but as far as I'm concerned a magician will and can do anything at all to achieve the effect. That is what they (all of them) do. That's how I view any magic act of any kind. I don't have a problem with that as he/she is doing what it states on the tin. The excuses or explanations given are also subject to all of the above. It's nothing different from a play in which the character; Sue a 16 year old virgin is actually 24, called Samantha and has two kids. No one has any problem with that and is expected in a play.

But then The X Factor abuses manipulation and everything and anything they can in a complex set of terms and conditions, most of which the viewing audience knows nothing about and would need a lawyer to interpret. I'm sure there are things that they can legally do behind the scenes to get what they want that would horrify the general viewing public.

[Reality Sucks]

If a fear can be diminished/removed by any means, whether it be a placebo or by suggestion, then it has to be a valuable thing, especially when dealing with unreasonable fear. However, it looked as though some of them were going to be bungie jumping etc which is a perfectly reasonable thing to be scared of. It should be interesting - I can't wait

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by Reality Sucks

If a fear can be diminished/removed by any means, whether it be a placebo or by suggestion, then it has to be a valuable thing, especially when dealing with unreasonable fear. However, it looked as though some of them were going to be bungie jumping etc which is a perfectly reasonable thing to be scared of. It should be interesting - I can't wait

But they can be as there are theory groups who do just that already running using a variety of techniques.

All based on variations of psychological conditioning to help suppress the fear or phobia. Be it flying on planes or going up ladders.

[Reality Sucks]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

But they can be as there are theory groups who do just that already running using a variety of techniques.

All based on variations of psychological conditioning to help suppress the fear or phobia. Be it flying on planes or going up ladders.

I've not heard of anyone using placebo for fear though . So this will be Derren's angle on it I presume. Making people believe that a pill can take their fear away.

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by Reality Sucks

I've not heard of anyone using placebo for fear though . So this will be Derren's angle on it I presume. Making people believe that a pill can take their fear away.

Well as the placebo effect is nothing but psychology, as it contains no drug, the pill should do whatever the person the subject puts their faith in says it will do. (As long as the problem is a psychological one)

If a person feels they are ugly, a pill could be made to fix that as the problem is the subjective opinion of subject.

A placebo is only the delivery method of the psychology and psychology delivered via hypnosis or just tradition therapy sessions work just as well.

[pjc229]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

Well I can't comment about you, but as far as I'm concerned a magician will and can do anything at all to achieve the effect. That is what they (all of them) do. That's how I view any magic act of any kind. I don't have a problem with that as he/she is doing what it states on the tin. The excuses or explanations given are also subject to all of the above. It's nothing different from a play in which the character; Sue a 16 year old virgin is actually 24, called Samantha and has two kids. No one has any problem with that and is expected in a play.

But then The X Factor abuses manipulation and everything and anything they can in a complex set of terms and conditions, most of which the viewing audience knows nothing about and would need a lawyer to interpret. I'm sure there are things that they can legally do behind the scenes to get what they want that would horrify the general viewing public.

Yes I agree with all that, and it wasn't particularly meant as a criticism of Derren - rather that seemingly large swathes of the audience people don't get this distinction, and actually genuinely come away believing a lot of Derren's misdirection. Would you agree with this?

[Calibans Dream]

Originally Posted by pjc229

Yes I agree with all that, and it wasn't particularly meant as a criticism of Derren - rather that seemingly large swathes of the audience people don't get this distinction, and actually genuinely come away believing a lot of Derren's misdirection. Would you agree with this?

Not only agree but know of cases where people enquire about getting into certain areas so that they can do what Derren does, without understanding at all what it was he actually did.

Still, NLP is a harmless hobby.

[DSWNSM]

After last week's joke of a show i wonder what Derren Brown is going to give us this week. It should be fun on here again tonight

[jediknight2k1]

Originally Posted by pjc229

I'd have gone with "remember it's a magician's show, so don't believe everything (actually - anything) you see, you're probably being tricked somewhere", but each to their own

" Prob is my old shows are rooted in magic so ppl still look for cheating. Ho hum."

A recent Twitter response to peoples complaints about deception or misleading audiences.

[Reality Sucks]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

Not only agree but know of cases where people enquire about getting into certain areas so that they can do what Derren does, without understanding at all what it was he actually did.

Still, NLP is a harmless hobby

I think Richard Bandler might take issue with you there. He has some great psychological tricks for getting people unstuck without using hypnotism (although he can) Personally, I find NLP a bit too formulaic for my liking, but like everything else, it really depends on the practioner, not the science itself.

[Sad_BB_Addict]

Well, two weeks I lovingly crafted a thread for his Apocalypse programme, and soon it was 100+ pages and 2400+ posts long.
Some of these were about the show. Others were random ramblings. More were forum members slagging each other off.

But hey - let's do it all again!

[Sun Tzu.]

Sounds like rubbish. I enjoyed his last show.

[Abewest]

Originally Posted by Calibans Dream

"We" in this case means everyone. So a correct usage.

If you don't wish you make use of it, then that is entirely up to you. Is however negates nothing.

Seriously if you are unable to discern by yourself about the fact that I have knowledge of that subject, them it's not my position to sit here convincing you. It's just a case that you don't want to acknowledge it as it doesn't go along with the amateurish nonsense that you have to say.

Read it and use it or don't - entirely up to you. But it's nonsense to dismiss everything that doesn't support you crackpot theories.

So nice to see that on a thread about tonight's show your first contribution is to attack me and try and disprove anything I have to say. It's easy to discern what you are up to.

Attacking you? That's a good one coming from someone who now uses the terms "amateurish nonsense" and "crackpot theories".

It was neither. I simply stated the truth. You claim to be a practising stage hypnotist, but I don't believe you.

And I wasn't attacking you. I was merely pointing out that on the other thread you went off on one when someone else used the same term.

For all we know you could be googling to your little heart's content. I think I remember you now from another Derren Browne thread some time back. You also claimed to be a hypnotist then, though then you went under a different username.

[Norrin_Radd]

If the conclusion of this - two parter? - is little more than 'guess what, that 'drug' was a mere placebo!' I am going to never ever ever watch any of his shows again. This is his last chance, 'post-Apocalypse.'

[dezire]

I do not take Derrens shows as experiements, but as TV entertainment now. If you remember his Lotto show - where he actually engineered some elaborate bullshit story to back up his trick - sadly it was prooved the balls were swapped.
It's a shame because he was once much more credable.

[eggshell]

Originally Posted by Abewest

Attacking you? That's a good one coming from someone who now uses the terms "amateurish nonsense" and "crackpot theories".

It was neither. I simply stated the truth. You claim to be a practising stage hypnotist, but I don't believe you.

And I wasn't attacking you. I was merely pointing out that on the other thread you went off on one when someone else used the same term.

For all we know you could be googling to your little heart's content. I think I remember you now from another Derren Browne thread some time back. You also claimed to be a hypnotist then, though then you went under a different username.

This.

Its typical that the OP starts with a contentious statement then accuses others of starting a fight.

I'm afraid you're factually inaccurate on the last paragraph though.

Under the guise in which he undertook his usual vigorous debating style last year Calibans Dream claimed to be both a hypnotist and a hypnotherapist.

Wonder why the change of stance -- maybe that somebody pointed out there was a slight conflict there.

I was particularly interested in this duality because it made me wonder whether he was a stage hypnotist who suddenly decided to use his incredible powers for good. Or whether he was a hypnotherapist who suddenly decided " stuff curing peoples ailments I,m going to make them quack like ducks".

Discuss......