[i4u]

Originally Posted by katetow

OK - to be honest I do not read newspapers, so anything I have read has been through links on here. But I am aware of the Mails's reputation! For my sins most of the news I get is through listening to 5Live all day. Do I need to take cover?

Questions I raise on here are sometimes me playing devil's advocate. But I have a genuine interest in how people come to the conclusions they do.

I'm astonished with what 5 Live gets away with, considering it's BBC station.


Continuation of: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1755207

[nanscombe]

To misquote WIlliam Shakespeare...

Lord McAlpine, by any other name, would be a totally different person.

It would have been much more sensible for someone to have used the perpetrator's real name at the beginning.

[brancake]

Another misquote from Shakespeare:

David Rose, by any other name, would smell as foul.

[jsp263004]

Originally Posted by nanscombe

To misquote WIlliam Shakespeare...



It would have been much more sensible for someone to have used the perpetrator's real name at the beginning.

I agree Perhaps the police could have used the real name when showing the picture to the victim.

[nattoyaki]

I'm not sure it's worth posting here anymore...the threads on Savile here have been really good from the day news broke, but the last part seems to have gone downhill fast in the last week or two...people seemingly either promoting debates that lead away from the BIG story here or just totally muddying the waters, people attacking Messham, people getting their info from the Mail of all places, etc etc etc.

I'm reading less and less that's worthwhile here (sorry to all the genuine, constructive posters) and do not recognise this 'debate' anymore from the decent arguments and leads than were running until (probably) part 4.

I may decamp to the DI forum permanently. Over 800 pages now from a lot of people who are desperately working to uncover the truth (mostly) and only one or two mentions of reptiles in the entire thing, or people who appear to believe in them.

Yes there are crackpots on there. Can anyone vouch that there aren't any on here?! As ever, read, be critical, and decide for yourself what the 'truth' is for now, it's all we can do.

I may continue on here, I'm not sure. In the meantime, here's a snippet from the DIF.

@jimmysavile

Look at who his last two tweets are to. Look at his location. Genuine account or not...that's creepy.

[saralund]

Why do you think the entries were removed from wikipedia and by whom? There are only two real possibilities as far as I can make out, and you chose to quote only one from my post.

Shy, I couldn't find the original post to which this refers. Can you tell me which wiki posts have been altered, and what's been removed? Thanks.

[jzee]

Originally Posted by smc81

He certainly admitted that McAlpine was innocent of any wrongdoing so how would you complete the sentence:

Steven Messham, the former care home resident who has admitted his sex abuse claims against former Tory chairman Lord McAlpine were .......

Using a dictionary definition as opposed to a legal definition the word fabricated fits. I doubt Lord McAlpine would see the accusations as a case of mistaken identity, I think he would see them as a lie. .

He has admitted that he now knows them to be false, you could only say he had fabricated or lied if he already knew it was false when talking to TBIJ and Newsnight. The suggestion that Lord McAlpine, the former Conservative treasurer was involved I strongly suspect was made to Messham and other former care home residents by a journalist, quite possibly Simon Regan of Scallywag. The residents probably had very little, if any, knowledge of politics to correct this, and Regan probably knew nothing about there being a separate branch of the construction firm family in Wrexham. All Messham's evidence that he gave about the McAlpine at the Waterhouse inquiry points to Jimmie McAlpine, not Lord McAlpine.

Originally Posted by i4u

That's also my impression, and Lenny Harper who investigated the child abuse on Jersey has said he doesn't think the photo was at Haute de la Garenne home and the Sun were wrong to say Savile refused to assist police, he said they never asked him to.

Although he did say recently he thought Savile could have been implicated in the Haut de la Garenne scandal.

He said he didn't think it was the main older building of Haut de la Garenne, but that he thought it could be the newer block next door, which was still part of the home.

There was a good You and Yours today, not covering the abuse accusations per se, but covering the fallout on the BBC, what changes need to be made etc, including listener phone in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9

[Shy11]

Originally Posted by saralund

Shy, I couldn't find the original post to which this refers. Can you tell me which wiki posts have been altered, and what's been removed? Thanks.

This is the link I believe was edited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheriff_of_Clwyd

- though the entries are all back now. I wish I'd taken a screen-shot the first time we saw it, but I'm pretty sure the name Kenyon at first appeared for one year only, then later for many years. After this, the page listed around ten years with no names, and now they are all present in the way they were the first time we saw them, I believe - but can someone else please confirm all that?

I'm starting to feel as though I'm dreaming half of what's going on...

[Lilaeth]

One of the churchmen reffered to by victims?

http://news.sky.com/story/1010823/ex...x-abuse-claims

[lexi22]

Originally Posted by nattoyaki

I'm not sure it's worth posting here anymore...the threads on Savile here have been really good from the day news broke, but the last part seems to have gone downhill fast in the last week or two...people seemingly either promoting debates that lead away from the BIG story here or just totally muddying the waters, people attacking Messham, people getting their info from the Mail of all places, etc etc etc. I'm reading less and less that's worthwhile here (sorry to all the genuine, constructive posters) and do not recognise this 'debate' anymore from the decent arguments and leads than were running until (probably) part 4.

Have to agree. I spent a lot of the last thread putting people on ignore (although unfortunately still having to see their quoted posts), something I've never felt the need to do anywhere else on DS since I joined.

What has really put me off is the number of people intent only on deriding and ridiculing other people's opinions while claiming objectivity and the higher ground for themselves. Mostly while failing to offer anythng useful to the discussion.

I won't be heading over to DI but I agree that there are good constructive discussions going on there, in between the fantasy leaps.

[sozzled2day]

Originally Posted by lexi22

Have to agree. I spent a lot of the last thread putting people on ignore (although unfortunately still having to see their quoted posts), something I've never felt the need to do anywhere else on DS since I joined.

What has really put me off is the number of people intent only on deriding and ridiculing other people's opinions while claiming objectivity and the higher ground for themselves. Mostly while failing to offer anythng useful to the discussion.

I won't be heading over to DI but I agree that there are good constructive discussions going on there, in between the fantasy leaps.

I sincerely hope you don't stop posting here lexi. About 80% of the posters here are sensible and offer very useful points to the discussion, and you're one of them. Possibly the other 20% are just here to derail and / or get the thread closed down. If good posters stop posting, then they've won their vindictive game.

[brancake]

Originally Posted by Shy11

This is the link I believe was edited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheriff_of_Clwyd

- though the entries are all back now. I wish I'd taken a screen-shot the first time we saw it, but I'm pretty sure the name Kenyon at first appeared for one year only, then later for many years. After this, the page listed around ten years with no names, and now they are all present in the way they were the first time we saw them, I believe - but can someone else please confirm all that?

I'm starting to feel as though I'm dreaming half of what's going on...

Not sure what exactly you're after. This name is the only one I can find:

1986 The Hon. Lloyd1 Tyrell-Kenyon, of Gredington, Whitchurch, Shropshire.[13

Sorry, this won't help, I think.

Bit more info on the Kenyons:

Who was Thomas Kenyon ?
It is a good question.



Much more is known about his father, pictured above, Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon 5th Baron Kenyon DL FSA CBE. From this point onwards refered to as Lord Kenyon.

Lord Kenyon was born 13 September 1917 and was educated at Eton College and Magdalene College, Cambridge
Between 1947 and 1982 ‎Lord Kenyon was‎ President of the University of North Wales at Bangor.
From 1948 he was the‎‎ Deputy Lieutenant for Flint. (North Wales)
Between 1952 and 1957 ‎Lord Kenyon was‎ President of the National Museum of Wales.
Between 1962 and 1988 ‎he was the‎ Director of Lloyds Bank.
He was Commissioner of Wales Boy Scouts 1966
Between 1966 and 1988 ‎he was Chairman of the National Portrait Gallery.
He died 16 May 1993 ‎aged 75.


But who was “The Honourable” Thomas Kenyon ?

We know something about his elder brother, the 6th Baron Kenyon, also called Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon.
He was born 13 July 1947
He was High Sheriff Clwyd 1986 (North Wales)
And EU Ctee of The Regions 1994–97


But what about “The Honourable” Thomas Kenyon ?

He was born on 14 March 1954.
He died of Aids in 1993.

thanks to: http://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2...thomas-kenyon/

[saralund]

Originally Posted by Lilaeth

One of the churchmen reffered to by victims?

http://news.sky.com/story/1010823/ex...x-abuse-claims

I wonder if this case, and a Scottish case posted by Benjamini on the Politics forum:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...ntral-20302934

are an outcome of the 'Others' part of the Savile investigation?

[festyflo]

Originally Posted by nattoyaki

I'm not sure it's worth posting here anymore...the threads on Savile here have been really good from the day news broke, but the last part seems to have gone downhill fast in the last week or two...people seemingly either promoting debates that lead away from the BIG story here or just totally muddying the waters, people attacking Messham, people getting their info from the Mail of all places, etc etc etc.

I'm reading less and less that's worthwhile here (sorry to all the genuine, constructive posters) and do not recognise this 'debate' anymore from the decent arguments and leads than were running until (probably) part 4.

I may decamp to the DI forum permanently. Over 800 pages now from a lot of people who are desperately working to uncover the truth (mostly) and only one or two mentions of reptiles in the entire thing, or people who appear to believe in them.

Yes there are crackpots on there. Can anyone vouch that there aren't any on here?! As ever, read, be critical, and decide for yourself what the 'truth' is for now, it's all we can do.

I may continue on here, I'm not sure. In the meantime, here's a snippet from the DIF.

@jimmysavile

Look at who his last two tweets are to. Look at his location. Genuine account or not...that's creepy.

Have you got a link please?

[Shy11]

Originally Posted by brancake

Not sure what exactly you're after. This name is the only one I can find:

1986 The Hon. Lloyd1 Tyrell-Kenyon, of Gredington, Whitchurch, Shropshire.[13

Sorry, this won't help, I think.

That's the important entry, yes - but what I was trying to establish was what was deleted and whether entries were edited before being deleted (and then added again, correctly). I can't remember for sure what happened now with regards to the edits that took place.

[brancake]

Originally Posted by Shy11

That's the important entry, yes - but what I was trying to establish was what was deleted and whether entries were edited before being deleted (and then added again, correctly). I can't remember for sure what happened now with regards to the edits that took place.

I have added some more info on the Kenyons on my post above, if that might help. Only mentions Kenyon being High Sherriff for one year. Can't help with the edits, sorry.

[Dan Fortesque]

I wonder if there are any connections between the McAlpines and Kenyons. Same schools and such like.

[Paul Grayson]

Originally Posted by jzee

He said he didn't think it was the main older building of Haut de la Garenne, but that he thought it could be the newer block next door, which was still part of the home.

This view from Google Streetview of the newer block, taken from the main road, does look like the building depicted in the infamous photograph:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=jerse...184.19,,0,7.01

[saralund]

Originally Posted by Paul Grayson

This view from Google Streetview of the newer block, taken from the main road, does look like the building depicted in the infamous photograph:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=jerse...184.19,,0,7.01

Yes, it does. The house you can see off to the left over fields in the Savile pic is perhaps the house shown to the west of HdlG on the current Google image. That house looks to have had an extension thrown out at the front.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...red-abuse.html

[jassi]

Originally Posted by Dan Fortesque

I wonder if there are any connections between the McAlpines and Kenyons. Same schools and such like.

The Kenyons are an old Cheshire family, established at Greddington since the 18th century, whereas the McAlpines are relative newcomers to the area.I imagine that they move in the same social circles, buy I don't think there is any family relationship between the two.

[sangreal]

Originally Posted by Shy11

This is the link I believe was edited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheriff_of_Clwyd

- though the entries are all back now. I wish I'd taken a screen-shot the first time we saw it, but I'm pretty sure the name Kenyon at first appeared for one year only, then later for many years. After this, the page listed around ten years with no names, and now they are all present in the way they were the first time we saw them, I believe - but can someone else please confirm all that?

I'm starting to feel as though I'm dreaming half of what's going on...

No, it's the High Sheriff of Denbighshire which has no entries for 1962-1974
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sh...f_Denbighshire

Here's my original posts about the Sheriffs/McAlpines/Kenyons/etc
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...6#post62258266
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...9#post62238569
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...3#post62299023

[Shy11]

Originally Posted by Paul Grayson

This view from Google Streetview of the newer block, taken from the main road, does look like the building depicted in the infamous photograph:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=jerse...184.19,,0,7.01

With the pic taken on the other side of the building, you mean? I agree - the building is extremely similar in style and the map shows it could be taken round the back.

I think the house in the background of the JS pic can be seen in the top-left of this map.

Pic of JS for reference

[Shy11]

Originally Posted by sangreal

No, it's the High Sheriff of Denbighshire which has no entries for 1962-1974
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sh...f_Denbighshire

Here's my original posts about the Sheriffs/McAlpines/Kenyons/etc
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...6#post62258266
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...9#post62238569
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...3#post62299023

Apologies and thanks for clearing up.

[clemmati]

Originally Posted by Dan Fortesque

I wonder if there are any connections between the McAlpines and Kenyons. Same schools and such like.

Most of this is in Wikipedia and/or thepeerage.com. I ran a quick search for you. I didn't find any schools in common.

[pmaxted]

Anybody feeling sorry for George Entwistle ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm8inl5mQ2s