What is 'fair' though? Strictly has never been a level playing field between all the contestants, it simply can't be as they all have different backgrounds and different relevant experience. Relevant experience is more than just dance experience.

Denise is not the only contestant who's been to theatre school / been in shows etc, and there have been previous winners just like her. St Jill of Halfpenny, as many people affectionately refer to her due to her popularity, was a dance-trained stage school pupil just like Denise, yet no-one batted an eyelid.

How exactly is Denise's situation any different? Just because she's had a theatre job that involves dance? That they didn't have a directly relevant job doesn't make the training of Jill, Kara or any of the other theatre-trained past contestants any less relevant.

The apparent rules for "previous experience" seem to be as follows:

a) You can be a pop singer and have faffed about on stage a bit to your own songs as that isn't regarded as serious experience but the sort of stuff most persons with half a sense of rhythm could do.

b) You can have gone to stage school as long as you haven't used the singy/dancy bit seriously in your career (pop singy stuff doesn't really count - see above).

c) Acting isn't regarded as relevant experience - it just means you might be more comfortable performing which is forgiveable.

d) Having said all that, any perceived relevant dance experience (i.e. a or b) isn't an advantage in terms of the public.

(*Turns into Lloyd Grossman*)

Look at the evidence:

S1 - Only person with anything like relevant experience was Claire Sweeney. She was a shock boot.

S2 - An exception explained by the fact that Jill's experience wasn't widely known at the time (I remember it being played down as "ballet lessons as a child" in an article I read) and she had far less competition.

S3 - Zoe Ball was the only vaguely relevant celeb and she finished a distant third despite having scored more highly than anyone else all series.

S4 - Emma Bunton was widely disparaged. Perceived teachers' pet and never very popular.

S5 - Another exception. Alesha fell into category a) above but she got away with it partly because Kelly, Gabby and to a lesser extent Penny took most of the early flak and also possibly because of the way the series fell in terms of dances and dance offs. She may have won anyway but I remember an ITT after her dance off week where she plaintively squeaked, "I've had a journey too." She was still vulnerable and she knew it.

S6 - Despite being possibly the best technician Strictly's had, Rachel was generally as popular as the clap (although still more popular than Lisa). Dragged to the final two through sheer judgepower, she stood no chance against Tom Chambers. I liked her though.

S7 - No obviously relevant celeb. Ali, Zoe, Ricky and the like may have gone to stage school and obviously were from the acting profession but that wasn't really the reason that prevented them from winning.

S8 - I didn't know Kara had gone to stage school. And if I didn't know others may not have done either. Even if they did, she'd never been known for anything other than straight acting (see c) above).

S9 - Jason was the only one with real relevant experience and we all know what happened to him. (Of course it didn't help that he'd learnt "Conversational Charisma" at the Gary Barlow School but still).

S10 - Kimberley is an Emma B or an Alesha. She's not being as harshly treated as Emma because she's not out in front like Emma was and because, like Alesha, she has others (namely Denise) in the way to detract. Having said that, she's probably not getting away with her experience; Saturday's vote is possibly some indication of that.

And so we come to Denise. Well, never in the past has a contestant come to SCD quite so obviously experienced. Everyone who knew who she was expected her to be very, very good from the outset. And apart from a slightly dodgy waltz, she was. And still is. Look at the way others with less obvious experience have suffered with popularity over the years and then realise that Denise's last major "role" was on a series of reality shows judging others' suitability for West End singing and dancing parts and understand why her experience is regarded more suspiciously than the rest.

Or don't.

I don't really care .

I'm so sorry, I appear to have written the Domesday Book.

I think her experience is only "relevant" because people dislike her. If they liked her, they would ignore it.

Denise has been far from perfect. Her Waltz and Cha Cha were both a bit dodgy. She's definitely not a pro.

Excellent summary of the situation, though. I think your explanation is spot on.

Ah, but what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do people dislike her anyway and use her experience as a justification or do they dislike her because of her experience?

Clearly if people don't like her to begin with, it would make no difference whether she was Karen Hardy in a blonde wig or Quentin Wilson in drag.

I don't give a toss about "relevant" experience but others do and I do have some understanding as to why they see her as the ringeriest ringah ever to have been on the show.

Bib - Then maybe people appearing on the show should stop mentioning that word in conjunction with her. I don't think it's doing anything for her chances and I'm beginning to wonder whether it's deliberate.

It's a dance competition for people who don't have dancing in their background. Some of us feel Denise has that.

Agree. I loved Kara, so it didn't bother me one bit that she clearly had dance experience before doing the show. I don't like Denise anywhere near as much as Kara but I'm not bothered that she, or Kimberley have some degree of dance experience either. I probably should be more outraged but I'm not. Maybe because I think there are more worse things that need to be looked at on Strictly like the poor camera work, or Bruce's poor delivery at times or whatever else that could make the show much better than worrying about whether a contestant has a dance background that is short of professional. At least I can enjoy their dancing whereas I can't those other elements.


Well you argue the case well but fact is, people that don't like Denise will find any way possible to say that her situation is not anything like that of Jil, or Kara, or anyone else that has previosuly been on the show and went to stage/theatre school, or just any dancing school at a point in their life that has since led them to the advantage they now have on Strictly. For me it doesn't bother me this whole dancer versus amateur thing. While I like watching people learn to dance, ultimately I want to watch GOOD dancing, and the joy of that more often for me comes from the contestants that have more dance background already than those that have none. What can I say, I'm a dance snob. As long as they are not ex Ballroom and Latin dancers, or Pro Ballerinas of Darcy's standard then I'm pretty much game.

Just to add an extra point after the excellent summary on the dance experience debate:
Matt Baker got lots of flak for being a gymnast and his experience, probably heightened by Aliona using those skills early on, but Louis seems to have had a far easier ride for his gymnastic background probably because Flavia has cleverly not drawn attention most of the time.

Don't like Denise's legs they are just odd. Stupid reason I know but there you have it. Oh and sticking her with James is just too TOWIE (another pet dislike of mine).


Not forgetting Matt started off on a dodgy 70's disco stage show.

I think Matt got more stick for the routines he learned on Blue Peter. Nobody would have called him a ringer though.

Louis is very normal. Not a drama queen like Victoria and quite a few of the others. He just gets on with it, which is very appealing.

I was at a meeting yesterday where we discussed Strictly

the general view was that the final will be between Denise, Lisa and Kimberley.

I said nothing....did arch my eyebrows a bit though

I'll be very surprised if Denise lifts that glitterball. The judges will ensure she remains until the last 3 then (just like Zoe Ball in series 3) they'll find themselves lacking public support. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the bottom two before we get to that stage. It happened to Alesha and was much more popular than Denise.

I bought the Strictly Live Tour DVD, I think in 2009. The one when Ramps was on it.

James not only danced beautifully but also came across as a lovely and very amusing person. He almost made the DVD for me. That is apart from Ramps. And it is very easy to get the wrong impression when one has never met the person in real life.

I don't believe that we can really know what the pro's are like. Perhaps we should judge only their dances?

Nice thought but SCD isn't just about dancing and never has been. If it was, we might as well award Denise the trophy now.

It's about how a celeb comes across on TV, it's about how they interact with their pro partner, it's about the dreaded "j" word and, therefore, it's also about the persona the pro puts across too.

I agree that we don't/can't really know the pros from what we see - the same applies to the celebs. Doesn't and won't stop us judging what we see though and as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't. The show is something of a media circus and if Chris Hollins can beat Ricky Whittle because the public enjoy his partnership with Olachops (that name just makes me cringe ) a million times more than they enjoy Ricky's with Natalie despite the fact that Ricky is a million times better at dancing then so be it.

And if I decide never to vote for Denise in a million years because James has the uncanny habit of projecting an "Iamacomplete@rse" persona across the airwaves despite the fact that there's a fair amount of evidence that he's a decent bloke away from the cameras, then that's part of the deal too.

I'd be surprised too but what if the following are very close on the leaderboard and end up in the dance-off before the final?

Denise and Louis.
Denise And Kimberley.
Denise and Dani.

Who will the judges save?

Denise in each case.

I think the only close one there for the judges is Denise v Kimberley but I don't see Denise v Louis happening.

I think it would very much depend on the dance but I think Denise would be saved over Kimberley or Dani myself. Not sure about Denise V Louis but probably Denise.

I hope not, I'm a Kimberley Fan.

She'd be saved over Dani & Kimberley, but Louis? I think not.

I can't personally think of a time when there was a dance-off between two high marking dancers, one man one woman, where the judges didn't save the woman. No doubt there are, and people on here remember much better than I do, so apologies if I'm wrong, but generally I think they've saved a woman where they could. Louis v Denise is the easiest of the three, because Len has the casting vote - Craig and Len would vote Denise whatever the others did. I think Dani might possibly get Len's vote with the right dance and that might make the difference.

I can't remember if I'm honest.

Depends on how they dance but as things go, I agree Denise.


Don't worry, I don't remember at all! I think Craig would always vote for Denise because I think she is his favourite dancer. I'm not sure about Len though.

I don't think Denise v Kimberley would be close at all - Denise would get a unanimous verdict, she's far better than Kimberley technically.

Denise v Louis would be the only close one in my mind.

But if it was Denise dancing like she did in the cha cha and Kimberley like she did in VW, I think they'd save Kimberley.

If it was jive Denise v foxtrot Kimberley, it would be a clean sweep for Denise.