so... please enlighten me, what tracks are disco created by 'my' generation ie punk/post punk from 1980 onwards? for ever 1 you can find id cite 3 others that were non disco. the point is that prior to 1980 disco was huge. but after 1980 as a style it was ignored by the punk generation in favour of funk. now you can bicker all you want to about it, but it went from being huge, to being all but ignored. it was the style of dance pre-80, but by 81 it was nowhere in comparison to several other dance styles.

and stop trying to steer the thread back to the punk vs disco argument, what matters if johnny liked the bee gees and disco? whats that got to do with it?

no...get the quote right. i said that i own more dance tracks then punk. i own very few disco tracks, i own far more funk and ska.

pure speculation on your part there, being biased towards the bee gees. the facts are that here in the uk abba outsold the beegees over the period 74-82. 9 x #1 singles, 8 x #1 albums compared to the beegees 2 x #1 singles and 2 ablums.


i said "while their enjoyment may be equal" so im not bickering over semantics.

now you are agreeing with me, people DO have varying degrees of interest and knowlege of music!


but is that a fact? do you have any stats on it? the reality is that is just what you perceive. i think if someone cares about what is in the charts, from a non commercial point of view (ie. sales/marketing/industry based), then they don't understand music at all. it's to be listened to, not counted[/quote]

oh come on! you claim to have studied music, who tf do YOU think are buying singles over the last 60 years of the charts?

the vast majority are the young, always has been. adults tend to develop their tastes away from the commercial singles and get into albums, concerts, clubs. the only singles most single buying adults purchase are the cheesy ballads. so no, if you are suggesting that singles are bought evenly across the age demograph then you are wrong.

you said "the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats. "

but that is not a fact. you know yourself that the lead singer of one of the most famous punk bands was a fan of disco and the bee gees in particular, as mentioned in interviews on his own official website. one of his songs has "disco" in the title. so disco clearly was not ignored



as mentioned above, that is evidence that disproves your statement "the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats. "


so if you have disco tracks, then your statement "the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats."clearly is not true, and certainly doesn't refer to yourself

it's not pure speculation, it's based on the fact that the bee gees sold 220 million records. don't you think that out of 220 million record sales that there must be literally millions of them that haven't bought a single abba song? there must be millions of people who bought the saturday night fever soundtrack alone who have never bought an abba album

remember as i pointed out before, chart positions aren't an accurate measure of sales in total, only a representation of who sold the most amount of records in a region in a particular time frame

abba has sold nearly twice as much records as the bee gees, but that doesn't mean that ever person who bought a bee gees record has an abba one


but that is what you think. do you have any actual stats to back that up? if not, then your views are not based on facts

what disco track did lydon create?.... where are they in the charts from 80 onwards?



erm... im not a musician! and the few disco tracks i like and own are pre 81.

you have no clue! it IS speculation, youre guessing! besides i could turn the question back on you...how many people who bought abba never bought the bee gees (disco era, i love their 60's material)... oh hold on (raises hand) HERES ONE!

no you didnt 'tell me' i knew that and have done for many years.


nope i have no actual stats to hand. but again you are making a big deal out of trivial points. i might not have stats to PROVE that the majority of singles in the uk have been bought by the young, i believe that to be true, dont you? or are you suggesting that people from 10 - 80 are all buying bieber, rihanna? saturdays? in equal numbers?

i havnt any stats to prove my hearts beating...but it is!

any stats?

but that means its twice as likely that people who bought bee gees ALSO bought abba, or much fewer people who bought abba also bought the bee gees!

its ridiculous, bickering about nothing.

you said ""the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats. "

where does it say create there?

and where is time mentioned?

so again you are changing from "pure speculation". how many times have you tried to change what you've said here? from the thread title being factually wrong, and onwards?

i'm not guessing. i'm not just plucking something out of thin air. i'm using facts and figures.

do you honestly think there aren't millions of people who own bee gees records and don't own abba records?

similarly there will be millions of people who bought abba records but haven't bought bee gees records


no, i didn't "tell you", i pointed it out



this isn't a trivial point. the point of what i'm demonstrating is that you are stating things as facts that clearly are not facts, and in many if not most, or all cases, are simply wrong

you said ""the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats. " but you didn't ignore disco, you bought the records, and you've spoke about it more than any other subject in the music forum lately. from those discussions you've seen references to other punk musicians and fans who have bought, enjoyed and been influenced by disco, so clearly any idea that disco was ignored is as untrue as your original statement and thread title "
Why was disco ignored by british musicians?"



it simply wasn't ignored


if you want to present something as a fact, you need to have some evidence to back it up. and trying to change what you say when it's pointed out when you are wrong isn't going to go ignored either

what facts and figures? where are these facts and figures that show the people who bought the beegees but not abba?... you have not a flippin CLUE! pure guesswork.

i didnt say there wasnt, i said that we do not KNOW the figures and that YOU are speculating. that remains the case, however as abba sold twice as many records as the beegees in this period its likely that twice as many 'abba fans' never bought a beegees record.



and the difference is?... either way YOU didnt point out , tell me, nor educate me . i already knew, being an adult at the time.


oh...so the singles ARENT primarily bought by the young?.. its 40, 50, 60 year olds who buy singles?... ridiculous.


already answered that.



i did, i listed a wealth of early 80's acts who didnt create/play disco but favoured other styles of dance music.

the fact that they are the punk generation and the fact they are musicans covers that.

if you disagree, then thats fine, but you are just going around pointlessly in circles and all you are doing is bickering over the detail, when the general gist of the point i raised stands.

but what you said - """the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats. " is not a fact. and evidence has been provided of that

sales stats. it's not pure guesswork, which is all your comment is based on. with the stats mentioned, do you still believe what you said was true?

ah, so you do know you were wrong after all. that answers the first question

you don't know the difference between someone telling something, and pointing it out? i did point it out. whether you knew before or not is irrelevant. however if you did know, then why make a statement that suggests otherwise?


so i guess again you have no stats to support what you are saying? i also presume you didn't see the documentary on tv on friday about singles.
you surely must be aware of itunes? it allows anyone almost anywhere in the world to buy millions of tracks instantly with a few mouse clicks. it's revolutionised the music industry, so if someone hears a song somewhere, instead of taking a trip to a record store or supermarket, they can just search for the track, click and buy and download it in seconds. it doesn't matter how old you are.
back in the 60s or even 70s the balance may have been predominantely towards a young group, but there are still many people still buying music regularly today who were record buying teenagers in the 60s, 70s and 80s. teenagers of the 60s are todays pensioners. people don't stop doing what they love because of age. for many people, the older they get, the more disposable income they have, thus they are more able to afford to buy music, and on price basis, to buy a track off itunes today works out at similar prices to those in the 70s. if you consider inflation, it's cheaper to buy a track today than perhaps ever before in the history of records.

so your idea is quite an outdated concept now. do you think it was only teenagers who put 2 ACDC tracks in this weeks top 40 singles chart?


so we are clear that your facts were wrong on that


but as you acknowledge above, your facts are wrong, regardless of that. disco wasn't ignored by you, and it wasn't ignored by "your generation". if you were representative of "your generation" and you bought disco then it's likely most of them bought disco too

mushymanrob & unique

both locked in to another of your debates/arguments?

lol.. about disco, dont forget we sang from the same hymnsheet regarding jacko...

what planet are you on? will you PLEASE support your notion that beegees fans didnt buy abba! you show me the facts, the stats, but you cant because there isnt any, what you are doing is pure guesswork.

how do you make that out? lol are you a politician? salesman or religiuous fanatic? they are the only ones i know that can swear black is white! i never said that there werent some beegees fans that didnt buy abba, i said quite clearly yet again that no one KNOWS.

simple. i didnt.


stop confusing the issue. i made it perfectly clear that over the last 50 years the SINGLES chart have been the preserve mainly of the young. itunes makes no difference, do you think people of my age are interested in singles?

stupid circular argument, you know full well as does everybody else that the singles chart are still the preserve of the young.


unbelieveable! how do you reach that conclusion?

you repeat a question that id already addressed then claim that i was wrong?


incorrect. to start with i was one who liked anything, unlike most other music fans in the late 70's, who were largely tribal, liking one style, dressing in the fashion of, there was very little crossover. a friends once viewing my collection was bemused that i could like wuthering heights, next to pretty vacant, next to (you make me feel) mighty real. so no, unless they were into disco, the people i knew, friends, family, schoolkids, youth club kids, did not like disco...in fact many hated it.

youve already been told that clubs were playing funk and soul, not disco. disco was marginalised, funk and ska became the dance styles of choice by 'my' generation. these alternative styles of dance were cool, popular and were embraced by the british youth of the time.

just my opinion? well view old 'grange hills' or 'the young ones', programmes like that, that dealt with youth, tyo in particular omitted disco, even its party episode had an old showstoppers hit, not disco.

so you can bicker all you want to m8. im done. i know what went on, i was there.

i've not once said or suggested that bee gees fans didn't buy abba. i have however provided the sales stats for both to back my comment that there will be millions of people who prefer the bee gees to abba

as explained above. your post that i answered was "i didnt say there wasnt, i said that we do not KNOW the figures and that YOU are speculating. that remains the case, however as abba sold twice as many records as the beegees in this period its likely that twice as many 'abba fans' never bought a beegees record.". so you seem to either be twisting things on purpose or getting confused


yes you did, and you've argued the toss about it over a number of pages


no you didn't make that perfectly clear. again, you are trying to change what you said or meant, which you've done from your opening statement onwards. you made a sweeping generalisation, which is what you often do without checking facts or considering that people are different and think differently and enjoy different things. so what you may think or like can be very different to what other people like.
i don't know what age you are, but there are people of all ages who buy music from itunes. the concept of a single has changed over the years, so buying a single track from itunes can register a sale in the singles charts. so yes, people of your age, whatever that is, do buy singles, and people older than you do too. itunes makes a HUGE difference to this, making it easier for people to make impulse purchases at any time without entering a store.
you also don't seem to have considered the current age of piracy. stats have shown that internet piracy rates of music are much higher for youths than older age groups who are less likely to be bothered with finding out how to make illegal downloads work, have concerns about getting caught, and have disposable funs to legitimately buy a product. on the other hand there are alarming percentages of under 20s who have never bought any music before. so the concept of teenagers being the vast majority of music purchasers has changed a great deal over the past few years, from 60s teenagers still buying music today whilst in pensionable years, to teenagers today greatly reducing the volumes of music purchased. the amount of sales required today to send a single to number 1 is far lower than in the 70s, because less teenagers are buying singles

yes, because you confirmed yourself you were mistaken. have a read back and you will see

how can "but as you acknowledge above, your facts are wrong, regardless of that. disco wasn't ignored by you, and it wasn't ignored by "your generation". if you were representative of "your generation" and you bought disco then it's likely most of them bought disco too " be incorrect? you've admitted yourself that you bought disco records. you didn't ignore disco. you even started this thread?
and did you ever consider that your friends may have bought disco records even if they told you they didn't or they told you they hated disco? haven't you ever said you hated disco, yet you bought disco records? didn't john lydon say he hated pink floyd and disco, yet he was a fan of pink floyd and also disco? just because someone says openly they like or dislike something doesn't mean that secretly the truth is different, especially when people are young and impressionable

i've been told? what is that supposed to mean?
there are thousands of clubs in the uk and there has been for decades. different clubs play different types of music. so whilst some clubs may have played funk and soul, others played disco. remember disco was by far the most popular musical genere for a period. you must surely be aware of clubs playing disco music in the UK?

but it's still your opinion. your opinion may or may not be shared with others. so just because you find someone else who shares your opinion or a similar one, doesn't make it a fact, it's just a shared opinion. even if most people share that opinion, it's an opinion nonetheless

you are the one that's bickering. you started the thread. you only know part of what went on, you know your own experiences, but not everyone elses, so to think everyone was into the same things as you and disliked the same things you disliked is wide of the mark. thus presenting those opinions as facts without doing any research of facts and figures (not opinions) will result in your statements being wrong

Marc Bolan had a stab at disco as early as 1974 with 'Light of Love':
http://youtu.be/gY_xDdHvJ5I

Ok, not pure disco by any means; nor was 1975's 'Dreamy Lady' despite being credited as 'T.Rex Disco Party':
http://youtu.be/y5vbsrSZ-h8

IMO Light Of Love, Dreamy Lady & Laser Love were his best works

Trust me to miss out on this thread bitch-off between Davis & Crawford!!

Love Uniques disco knowledge. (Im not alone!!!!)

Mushy, maybe a better arguement would've been 'Why were British musicians so snobby about disco-music?'

From my own perspective:

Disco originated from black funk and was soon derided by 'true' black artistes of its time as 'watered down funk', though that doesn't stop the same 'serious' black/white artistes from cashing in on it, sooner or later...

It was almost all started from gay/mixed clubs in NY then later San Francisco, originally, these clubs were high market, but still very much underground places that you had to be in 'the know' to be aware of. They were not obvious places to go to for the average joe. And, the clubs didn't want mr & mrs average to go to them.

Lots of people making disco records were session musicians who'd played all kinds of genres prior to the disco era. They saw it thru a haze of weed, as just another fad to earn a crust on.

These musicians knew their musical scales and had toured/played in bands - there were no computer synth plug-ins back then (than God!). Alot of these musicians, at the time, viewed making disco music as a 'job', as opposed to making 'serious' music, whether it be jazz,rock,funk, prog-whatever.

An example would be the many talented classically trained musicians that played string parts on disco tracks. They would have their more 'important' day job of playing in the orchestra in NY, then, they could moonlight at night, and earn extra money by providing back up over-dubs on some disco'fluff' in the early hours of the morning...

Remember disco was 'functional' music, designed primarily to get your butt on the dancefloor. Lyrics, generally (though not always), were secondary, this was another reason serious 'artistes' found the genre disposable. Disco primarily, was about physicality and shaking your tush.

Ian Levine (northern soul dj) was instrumental in bringing over the latest releases from NY and created a rift amongst northern soul purists and people wanting the fuller disco sound. A year or so later, eurodisco would be featured in underground clubs in the UK, mainly gay clubs - which, in reality were the underground. france and later Italy and Canada conributed to the eurodisco sound.

I adore disco.

oh yeah?




im sure there are some, but my point was and still is that you are GUESSING. you have no idea how many beegees fans didnt also buy abba.

and snf may have sold 220 million, but not everyone who bought that was a beegees fan, they bought the album, for the film, in fact many old time beegees fans...like me... didnt like their disco crap!

and as i pointed out, with chart stats, and by your own admission, abba outsold the beegees by 2-1 during this period, their chart success was far superior, so if anything, abba fans were the ones ignoring beggees songs. they had too, abba sold more! and abba during this period were not a disco act, but an act who created a few disco hits. most of abbas output was not disco.

lol.. look back down the thread m8, it was ME who accused you of guessing figures, speculating which fans bought what. you are crediting yourself with MY posts!



ok, so you think that singles are bought by people of all ages from under tens to oaps?... yes?... and that there ISNT a huge bias of young (teens early 20's) who make up the vast majority of singles sales. by default yoy are saying that the singles market is aimed not at the young but at everybody...ok... i accept you point of view, but i dont agree with it.

yes it was a sweeping generalisation that i believe singles are aimed at the young... so? i didnt say that ONLY the young buy singles, but they DO buy the majority.



i am not a musician. read the headder.


bickering about nothing. so what if some had an odd disco track? the chart facts speak for themselves which is the whole point i was raising in this thread... so what if johnny liked disco? so what?

the chart facts are that british musicians all but abandoned disco so that by the end of 1980 there was all but none, yet funk, jazz funk, reggae, ska, blah de blah were all alternative dance styles that british musicians and fans were buying, liking, creating, playing.

it was posted by a disco fan that clubs werent playing disco, but soul, funk etc... (talking about the post punk era, yes disco was popular for a while before 1980)

an opinion of someone who lived through the era, participated in it...

but the chart stats for 81-onwards support my view as do 'yoof progs' from the era....

watch 'nozin aroun' sketch off the young ones, that highlights 'our' attitude to disco.

im 55, was 20 in 77

actually thats a good question... and is the heart of what im getting at.

i just think that disco was seen as too.... gay? soft? uncool?

i think that punk killed disco (at least for a while, until house) in as much as punks creative 'do it yourself' ethos encouraged innovation. you had the police fusing rock and reggae, ground breaking stuff, the clash, pil, and two tone all popularising new dance sounds. and funk was seen as the superior (musically) style of dance. maybe (as unique pointed out) funk was easier to create for musicians.

yes yeah. try reading things properly! i also clarified when i posted sales stats.

your original comment was" wow. not many would prefer the bee gees most cheesiest of material over abbas class pop. but hey ho, everyone has differing tastes i guess.".
my reply was "i'm sure millions of people would disagree with you there. how many millions of people bought those bee gees disco songs but never bought a single abba song?".
that's what started you off bickering about this. i didn't state it as a fact. i just said i was sure that millions of people would prefer the bee gees to abba, simply due to the large number of sales involved.
let's ask you outright for a clear answer, do you still honestly think at this moment in time that there are not millions of people who prefer the bee gees to abba? there aren't 2 million or more people who prefer bee gees to abba? considering the sales of the saturday night fever soundtrack alone, there must surely be millions of people who bought that album but never bought an abba record, don't you think?


because people would watch a disco film with disco music, the main tracks written by the bee gees, and bought the album even though they didn't like the bee gees? so this album unlike every other album in history was bought by people who didn't like the music on it?

but that has no bearing on my comment "i'm sure millions of people would disagree with you there. how many millions of people bought those bee gees disco songs but never bought a single abba song?". many more people clearly bought abba records than bee gees records, so many more people prefer abba to the bee gees if following that train of thought, but it doesn't mean that some people prefer the bee gees to abba does it? you are adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 5

well i've addressed that in my last post. unfortunately you are wrong there

yes. don't you? i don't imagine many under 10s buying singles however. in fact i would imagine there would be more singles bought by OAPs then under tens. don't you?
think about this logically. under tens mean zero to 9 year olds. at what age do you think kids start being aware of particular artists they like? 5? 6? 7? 8? earlier? and then consider at what age they would be interested in actually obtaining music, having a cd or mp3 (tapes/records in the older days). then consider the simple financial logistics of a ten year old and their purchasing ability. few of them will have disposable income that they would be prepared to spend on music. due to other logistical issues, the use of itunes for under tens is of course limited (ie. credit card/parental guidance etc). on the other hand OAP's consist of people from 60 years old and onwards. the life expectancy is increasing in the UK, and teenagers enjoying music in the 60s are now becoming the OAP's of today. thus you have a huge age range from 60 to 100+ compared to a small age range of 1-9, and then the financial considerations of disposable income of a pensioner (not all of which are skint these days) compared to a young child's pocket money.
who do you think buys more singles? under 10s or OAPs?

no, i'm not saying that at all. again you are making another sweeping generalisation. marketing is a lot more sophisticated. target audiences are measured and put into categories and promotions are aimed towards those categories. an artist like adele will have a larger age range and perhaps aimed at an older audience whereas rizzle kicks will have a smaller target audience and a younger one.
have a look at the current UK top 40 singles chart and you will see songs that pretty clearly have an older target audience than teenagers or even early 20s. such as ACDC and gabrielle aplin, who's audience is more likely to be 40-50 year old housewifes who liked frankie back in the day and now shop at john lewis and marks and sparks, and instead of vivienne westwood logo t shirts they'll be wearing vivienne westwood debenhams range of maternity wear. do you think teenagers are buying robbie williams more than 40 year old women who were fans of take that in the early 90s? just look at the audience who turn up at his gigs, or likewise take that. look at madonnas audience today, 40+ year old mothers wearing pink cowboy hats at concerts. people no longer seem to consider themselves too old to buy music or wear t shirts designed for people half their age

well i have no doubt that's what you think. but have a look into stats and logistics. p2p piracy has made a clear dent in those stats, as are people not stopping buying music when they get older

that wasn't in relation to the header specifically, but your quote "the facts are though, that the punk generation of musicians and most fans DID ignore, abandon, disco in favour of funk, jazz funk, latin, reggae/ska and even rockabilly and afro beats. " - which is just another generalisation based on your own experiences without considering others



bickering about nothing. you couldn't have said it better. you do tend to bicker about the smallest points when it's shown you are wrong. what was the point of trying to argue against a comment that some people preferred one thing to another?

but discos peak was in the 70s when it was the most popular genre in the world for a time. likewise punk peaked in the 70s, although considerably less popular than disco. how much funk, jazzfunk, reggae and ska were in the UK singles charts in the 80s? like for like you won't find a considerable amount of those records selling more than disco in the same period, likewise punk. these were genres with a relatively small market in the UK compared to other styles, whilst disco was the predominant genre for a while

one fan? if you took every single member of this site they still couldn't reflect between them the full extent of UK clubs at the time. it would be like taking your views and experiences and thinking everything else was the same as that was the extent of what you experienced. some clubs will play one thing, others will play another. even on different nights of the week clubs can change the style of music played. if you went to a club tonight and found dub reggae playing it doesn't mean that club always played dub reggae or other clubs played it too. the following day they could be playing techno, and the next day hip hop

they key part is highlighted. one person can't know what everyone else likes or gets up to

no they don't. even if they did, it doesn't make your view a fact. and it's not went unnoticed that you are trying to change the subject from disco in the 70s when it was at it's peak (as was punk) to the 80s when it's peak was well over (as was punk). you wouldn't look to the 80s and ignore earlier periods when discussing the impact of motown and soul would you? nor would you talk about hip hop and ignore the 80s onwards as you would be ignoring the main periods of the genre

ah, the show written by the guy who did that queen musical, named after a cliff richard song, had a cliff richard song as the theme tune, had a number 1 hit single with cliff richard, and were killed by cliff. how many cliff richard references were there in that show? one of the characters was a cliff richard fan too. how cool. great show, but remember it was fiction, and whilst ben elton was comedy gold in the 80s, he's changed his tune these days. we will rock you is the antithesis of what he spoke about in the 80s. same with most of the comic strip and "alternate" comedians. one day i turned on the tv in the kitchen whilst doing dishes and adrian edmonson was dressed like a farmer doing a serious show about the countryside and cheese and hay and stuff like that, a bit like a fast show sketch, but without the comedy