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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Si_Crewe
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“It's really only in the last few years that they've obviously sold seats. I'm sure a few of the drivers above brought some money with them but they largely deserved their seats.”

Fair comment in some regards. Must admit, I don't even remember Button, Webber and Rosberg driving for them.
Montoya, OTOH, turned out to be on of the bigest damp squibs ever to enter F1 and, in recent years, Williams seems to have become the ultimate "Pay here for your F1 experience" team, mostly due to Patrick Head's deliberate "any monkey can drive a good car fast" attitude.
Assa2
25-02-2014
Montoya had his moments and certainly took no prisoners, but fell foul of the Indycar curse in the end.

The problem with Patrick Head's philosophy is that first you have to have a car that's quick enough for any monkey to drive. Wiliams simply haven't had that for a decade.
Si_Crewe
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“The problem with Patrick Head's philosophy is that first you have to have a car that's quick enough for any monkey to drive. Wiliams simply haven't had that for a decade.”

Uhuh and, if the Schumacher era taught us anything, it's that success gravitates toward a team that has the whole "package" in place.

After DH and JV won championships Williams probably thought that they could have re-run the 1996/97 seasons with any driver instead of DH/JV and they'd still have won but that's probably a rather arrogant attitude, especially with regard to long-term success, which doesn't actually encourage success, even if it doesn't preclude it.

Speaking as a Williams fan (dream-team would be to see Button and Hamilton in a winning Williams) things might be looking up this year though.
Thought they might do better with Renault power but it looks like they made the right choice to switch to Merc' for 2014.
Be interesting to see if there's a big difference between Massa and Lurch, compared to Bottas.
Smiley433
25-02-2014
Rob Smedley joins Williams as Head of Vehicle Performance.
Assa2
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Smiley433:
“Rob Smedley joins Williams as Head of Vehicle Performance.”

And what, prey, is one of those? Sounds very much like a job title they've made up for someone they've hired without really having a job. Any F1 team who needs a designated Head of Vehicle Performance is in trouble. Surely vehicle performance is what it's ALL about?

Seriously, though, I'm happy for Smedly and glad he and Felipe are back together. I think Williams are in for a decent season.
ACU
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Smiley433:
“Rob Smedley joins Williams as Head of Vehicle Performance.”

That to me sounds like a step backwards. You are going from Ferrari, with the best driver pairing, a decent car and a huge budget, to a team that has a much smaller budget and a very average car.

I am assuming Massa had a big part in Rob going to Williams
Si_Crewe
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Smiley433:
“Rob Smedley joins Williams as Head of Felipe Performance.”

Fixed for ya.

Apologies for editing quote. I know some people don't like that.
Smiley433
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“And what, prey, is one of those? Sounds very much like a job title they've made up for someone they've hired without really having a job. Any F1 team who needs a designated Head of Vehicle Performance is in trouble. Surely vehicle performance is what it's ALL about?

Seriously, though, I'm happy for Smedly and glad he and Felipe are back together. I think Williams are in for a decent season.”

Following a re-org at Williams, Smedly will report to Pat Symonds and his role is to "run the cars at the track".

Given last season, it wont be difficult for Williams to have a better season in 2014 - I hope they do well too.

Originally Posted by ACU:
“That to me sounds like a step backwards. You are going from Ferrari, with the best driver pairing, a decent car and a huge budget, to a team that has a much smaller budget and a very average car.

I am assuming Massa had a big part in Rob going to Williams”

No mention of Massa's role, if there was one, in the Smedly move. According to the BBC, "Smedley's new role as head of vehicle performance is more senior than his position at Ferrari, who failed in an attempt to persuade him to stay." But I guess Williams would say that in their press statement.

Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Fixed for ya.

Apologies for editing quote. I know some people don't like that.”

No offence taken. I'm imagining Smedly's role is to manage both cars rather than be a specific driver's engineer? So maybe we wont hear, "Valtteri is faster than you".

Last sentence on the announcement on the BBC website is that Richard Lockwood joins from Marussia as head of race strategy. Not familiar with his work, but hoping for a better performance from the Williams team this year.
Si_Crewe
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Smiley433:
“Following a re-org at Williams, Smedly will report to Pat Symonds and his role is to "run the cars at the track".

Given last season, it wont be difficult for Williams to have a better season in 2014 - I hope they do well too.



No mention of Massa's role, if there was one, in the Smedly move. According to the BBC, "Smedley's new role as head of vehicle performance is more senior than his position at Ferrari, who failed in an attempt to persuade him to stay." But I guess Williams would say that in their press statement.



No offence taken. I'm imagining Smedly's role is to manage both cars rather than be a specific driver's engineer? So maybe we wont hear, "Valtteri is faster than you".”

Thinking about it, hasn't think been on the cards for a while?

Pretty sure that, at the time Massa signed for Williams, there were rumours about Smedley heading over there as well but he difinitely wasn't going as some kind of "package deal" with Massa but, instead, was going there cos it was a better position, even though the team is smaller.

I guess Smedley's at the point where he's looking for an opportunity to get some proper management experience on his CV to help his career along in the future and, with a Merc' engine and Massa driving, he could well come out of this year as part of the team who "turned things around" for Williams.


Incidentally, while I'm at it, Mystic Si predicts... that this year we're going to see Vettel over-driving the car, getting into scrapes and generally having a bit of a ropey season, a bit like Hamilton did in 2012.

If the Renault power unit isn't up to scratch, I can see Vettel struggling to come to terms with the idea that he just flat-out doesn't have the machinery to do what he wants and ends up getting a bit desperate to compensate.
If the Renault cars are obviously slower and Vettel just settles into the role of "top Renault driver" without much hassle I'll be very surprised, and impressed.
indiana44
25-02-2014
Looks like Williams are covering the bases with Heads of Vehicle Performance and of Race Strategy

Hope they don't fall out too often :

"I give you a great car and you botch up the strategy."

"Well, makes a change !"
indiana44
25-02-2014
Seeing some comments on the double points idea, I do see the merits in the excitement of double points near the end of the season and also, as suggested here, in early races to reward engineering.

I also like to see mid season development so I'd propose double points for the middle races.

Basically, we have to thank the great Bernie for setting these thoughts in motion towards the logical conclusion...

Double points for every race !
Smiley433
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Incidentally, while I'm at it, Mystic Si predicts... that this year we're going to see Vettel over-driving the car, getting into scrapes and generally having a bit of a ropey season, a bit like Hamilton did in 2012.

If the Renault power unit isn't up to scratch, I can see Vettel struggling to come to terms with the idea that he just flat-out doesn't have the machinery to do what he wants and ends up getting a bit desperate to compensate.

If the Renault cars are obviously slower and Vettel just settles into the role of "top Renault driver" without much hassle I'll be very surprised, and impressed.”

If the RBR does turn out to under-perform this year, then it's an opportunity for Vettel to show what kind of a driver he really is. Look at the praise Alonso got for dragging the Ferrari round and frequently into the points. If Vettel can do the same kind of thing giving it a good race but knowing he's never going to retain the championship, then people might think a bit less un-favourable of him.

Unlikely I know, but you never know.
indiana44
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by Smiley433:
“If the RBR does turn out to under-perform this year, then it's an opportunity for Vettel to show what kind of a driver he really is. Look at the praise Alonso got for dragging the Ferrari round and frequently into the points. If Vettel can do the same kind of thing giving it a good race but knowing he's never going to retain the championship, then people might think a bit less un-favourable of him.

Unlikely I know, but you never know.”

Good point. Personally I think Vettel is better than many folk give him credit for. This coming year might help answer a few questions.
Si_Crewe
25-02-2014
Originally Posted by indiana44:
“Good point. Personally I think Vettel is better than many folk give him credit for. This coming year might help answer a few questions.”

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Vettel a lot. I just don't like it when F1 is a one-horse-race.

I just think that Vettel has matured along with the RBR car. As he's improved the car's improved with him and I think it might throw him, a bit, to suddenly find that he hasn't got a car which'll do what he wants any more.

As I said, if he manages to smoothly drop into the role of fighting for whatever points he can get, I'll be very impressed.
It just seems like when he's under pressure he still does some rather desperate and aggressive things and if he finds himself under pressure a lot this year I can see him relying on that sort of stuff too often.
Assa2
26-02-2014
There's a difference between dragging a car round that's a few tenths of a second a lap slower due to less grip or top end speed (like Alonso or MS did) and making up that time and taking something that is 100bhp down on power so will be potentially seconds slower. No way Vettel will be able to make that up. I'll be impressed if RB / Renault are able to give Vettel a car capable of being made to look half-way decent at this stage!

One concern I have is that the gaps at the start of the season will get bigger over time. Clearly there is a hell of a lot of development to be done with these new cars & engines. The smaller teams are stretched financially just getting cars to the grid this year so will be very limited in their in-season developments while the big teams will have lots of work they can & will do, giving them a bigger advantage as the season goes on. I would expect Mercedes, Mclaren & Ferrari to increase any advantage they start the season with and RB to close on those above them depending upon how much of the power gap Renault are able to overcome.

RB's relationship with Renault is interesting. While they have a long term contract Horner has already said there are performance clauses which means they can walk away of the Renault is crap. So if Renault fail to make up the ground this season RB could theoretically look for a new engine supplier... but who? Mercedes or Ferrari seem unlikely. Honda would be unproven and they'd be second to Mclaren there anyway. Who else is there? Which major engine manufacturers have the right sort of motor racing experience for modern F1? Audi? BMW? Nissan? Ford? Toyota?
gomezz
26-02-2014
Cosworth have a 2014 F1 power plant.
Assa2
26-02-2014
Interesting. I'd imagine they'll get a few customers for 2015 if Renault don't improve massively. I'm not sure they're the sort of supplier RB would be looking for, though.
Smiley433
26-02-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“I'll be impressed if RB / Renault are able to give Vettel a car capable of being made to look half-way decent at this stage!

One concern I have is that the gaps at the start of the season will get bigger over time. Clearly there is a hell of a lot of development to be done with these new cars & engines.”

On what we've seen so far, it could be that RBR have some catching up to do once the season gets under way which could give the other drivers/teams a head start in the championship. Just say RBR do close that gap through the season, all they would need to take the titles would be double championship points at the last race.

Oh wait...
Tadpole
27-02-2014
Interesting to think that tomorrow is lock-down day for the new engines, and Renault are seriously struggling. Part of me is hoping for a season which does not turn out to be another Vettel demonstration, but the other half is hoping that Renault can at least get a competitive unit together.
Assa2
27-02-2014
Originally Posted by Tadpole:
“Interesting to think that tomorrow is lock-down day for the new engines, and Renault are seriously struggling. Part of me is hoping for a season which does not turn out to be another Vettel demonstration, but the other half is hoping that Renault can at least get a competitive unit together.”

I think that's very unlikely now. RB's further woes today plus none of the Renault powered cars making much running just goes to show how completely inferior the Renault power unit has turned out to be. As of right now it really does look like we'll have a 2 part grid. What we have to hope now is that Mclaren & Ferrari can give Mercedes some competition otherwise Mercedes could dominate this season more completely than RB have done at any time. Even they had some issues today though so I think we'll see a few different winners in the first few races as reliability plays a role.
Assa2
28-02-2014
Renault have requested an extension to the engine homologation deadline (which is today) by 2 whole months! I've got 2 points to make about that.

1. That's as clear an admission from Renault that they are screwed as you're going to get.
2. The request will be voted on by the F1 Strategy Group which is made up of Bernie, Todt and 6 of the teams. The motion would require unanimity to be passed and Merc, Mclaren & Ferrari are 3 of the teams... so no chance!

Surely Renault realise this is a total non-strarter so why bother? Are they hoping Bernie will exert his full influence on the teams to allow Renault the extension?

RB have had another crap day so far today.
ACU
28-02-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Renault have requested an extension to the engine homologation deadline (which is today) by 2 whole months! I've got 2 points to make about that.

1. That's as clear an admission from Renault that they are screwed as you're going to get.
2. The request will be voted on by the F1 Strategy Group which is made up of Bernie, Todt and 6 of the teams. The motion would require unanimity to be passed and Merc, Mclaren & Ferrari are 3 of the teams... so no chance!

Surely Renault realise this is a total non-strarter so why bother? Are they hoping Bernie will exert his full influence on the teams to allow Renault the extension?

RB have had another crap day so far today.”

I am a Vettel fan, and hope he wins this season as well. However, I hope Renault dont get the extension. Rules are rules, if they have messed up, then tough.

If anything this gives my second driver Kimi a chance of winning another championship.
Assa2
28-02-2014
Well the change to the engine deadline was rejected.

It also appears the teams grew some balls and rejected Bernie's attempt to extent double points to the last 3 races. Shame they didn't reject the idea first time out.

RB had a slightly better day after all, getting a few laps under their belts and posting a half decent time (still some way slower than most of the Merc / Ferrari teams have managed at some point). Both Mclaren & Mercedes had reliability issues today as well which will be a small (very small) crumb of comfort.
Si_Crewe
28-02-2014
And, in other news, it seems FOTA has folded.

Bit worrying since it seems to imply that the teams aren't really interested in uniting for any common goal and, instead, prefer the idea of getting up to whatever they can get away with, individually.

Particularly interesting the way, having already lost Martin Whitmarsh from his role as spokesman due to getting fired from his post at McLaren, Eric Boullier has stepped down from his deputy spokesman role at FOTA after joining McLaren.
Guess it's fairly safe to say that Big Ron isn't a fan of FOTA.
Assa2
01-03-2014
FOTA had become an irrelevance for the top teams, especially since RB and Ferrari walked away. It was more of a platform for the smaller teams to have a small say in the running of F1. There's nothing to stop a group of teams forming a group similar to FOTA if they wanted to so the moaning seems a little disingenuous.
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