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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8) |
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#3751 |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Netherlands (Z-H)
Posts: 241
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Let me run this one up the flagpole........
If energy is required to produce noise, then any machine which produces excessive noise is inefficient. This contradicts the F1 desire to be seen as the pinnacle of cutting edge technology.
and If a great amount of noise is so desirable, why wear ear-defenders. Free your ears! I've never been a fan of noise, having flown in some very noisy aircraft, having worked directly under the Forth railway bridge and having attended F1 races, if I can have my drathers, I'd rather do without it. I find being able to hear the crowd, the tyres and the TV commentary is an enormous plus. In conclusion, consider the old noise-related conundrum: If a man speaks in a forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong? |
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#3752 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
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Quote:
As mentioned already, the rules state that they are not permitted to exceed 100kg of fuel per hour. But they are also limited to 100kg of fuel per car per race.
The RBR car that did finish had enough fuel to provide a testing sample and as the race lasted more than an hour it can be proven (unless there was some hidden tank onboard) that the fuel consumption was less than 100kg per hour in basic terms. I guess it's kinda like being nicked for speeding. The speed limit might be 70mph but you wouldn't be able to argue that you weren't guilty because you'd only travelled 56 miles in the previous hour, even though your maximum speed had been, say, 85mph at certain times. The odd thing, here, is that it's a bit like having one law which says you're only allowed to travel 60 miles in an hour and having another law which limits speed to 40mph. Safety issues aside, there really wouldn't be any need for the 2nd law cos even if you did drive at 90mph for 30 minutes, you'd have to drive at 30mph for the next 30 minutes (if my maths is right) or you'd be breaking the other law. I just don't see why it actually matters what the fuel flow-rate is at any given time as long as the cars finish the race using the designated amount of fuel. |
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#3753 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 47,995
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Quote:
I just don't see why it actually matters what the fuel flow-rate is at any given time as long as the cars finish the race using the designated amount of fuel.
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#3754 |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
![]() Is this the same internet I'm usually on? ![]() You're wrong, twenty five years with fuel flow systems means nothing if it's no in F1, you've only been watching F1 for five minutes when Vettel started winning. You're just some brain dead fanboy who wouldn't know a big end from a bell end etc. etc. Is that better?
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#3755 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
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Quote:
Correction to BinaryDad, it is 100l/hr not 100kgs/hr. (edit, now not sure about this, have seen on BBC website 100kgs/hr mentioned but it also says that cars start with only 100kgs on board, the race lasts for more than one hour so both cannot be correct) (edit edit I suppose both could be correct if they ran below this rate for much of the time, so how did RBR run consistently above this rate and not run out of fuel. IT IS JUST TOO COMPLICATED)
If it is true that the fuel rate must be governed by the FIA sensor wether it is faulty or not then the sport is in a worse state than I thought. Providing RBR can demonstrate the sensor is faulty then it would be reasonable to say they have a good case. Even the the FIA would not want to defend faulty data from a faulty sensor. There may be some argument about the criteria of faulty but I understand these sensor are specified with a tolerance range so should not be too difficult to decide wether it was within that range. This seems to be the crux of a few differences of opinions in this thread. |
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#3756 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
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Quote:
Oh, sorry.
You're wrong, twenty five years with fuel flow systems means nothing if it's no in F1, you've only been watching F1 for five minutes when Vettel started winning. You're just some brain dead fanboy who wouldn't know a big end from a bell end etc. etc. Is that better? ![]() I'm definitely damaged goods.
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#3757 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
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Quote:
Surely the 100kg fuel limit is all that's required to achieve this?
What difference does it make what peak-flow an engine needs? It still, ultimately, needs to finish the race while using only 100kg of fuel. Does the rule say "The car is limited to a maximum fuel flow-rate of 100 l/hr as determined by an FIA flowmeter" or does it just say "The car is limited to a maximum flow-rate of 100l/hr"? ![]() If it's the former, you're right. If it's the latter and the RBR data disputes the readings from the FIA flowmeter then it could get far more messy. |
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#3758 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Solihull
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Surely the point of having a fuel flow meter is because the amount of fuel the car is carrying isn't actually policed? The regulation is that they use a maximum of 100kg for the race, that's from green light to chequered flag, but the car has to get to the grid (potentially doing several laps via the pits), do the parade lap and get back to the pits after the race and still provide a sample so they will actually carry upwards of 110kg and if they want to carry more that's up to them as it's a weight disadvantage if they carry extra fuel they can't use. So the fuel flow rate has to be measured as it's the only way to accurately measure the over-all fuel usage during the race. Why there's a limit on actual flow rate though is beyond me.
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#3759 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
This fuel flow business is puzzling me.
As mentioned already, the rules state that they are not permitted to exceed 100kg of fuel per hour. But they are also limited to 100kg of fuel per car per race. The RBR car that did finish had enough fuel to provide a testing sample and as the race lasted more than an hour it can be proven (unless there was some hidden tank onboard) that the fuel consumption was less than 100kg per hour in basic terms. However the stewards are saying that the consumption rate for RBR exceeded the rules. So what is the FIA sampling rate for the fuel flow? Is it a certain flow over one minute? Or five seconds? Or a tenth of a second? As Si_Crewe has said, it looks to be a method of limiting power available from the combustion engine at any given time, but I don't understand how they are trying to govern or enforce it. |
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#3760 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
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Quote:
But it doesn't do that at all. It measures kilogrammes per hour, not litres per hour and I think this is part of the issue with Red Bull using their own measuring devices.
The important point in the post you quoted was whether or not the regulations specifically state that fuel flow must be quantified via the FIA flowmeter. They don't. The real issue here is simply that RBR think they've always run the car with a fuel flow-rate of less than 100kg/hr and they can probably calculate that with perfect accuracy by referring to their telemetry, which will show exactly how much fuel each injector has pumped into each cylinder with every combustion cycle whereas the FIA flowmeter has obviously been reading higher. As has already been said, the fundamental question is whether a team is supposed to comply with conditions of the rule, itself, or comply with whatever instrument the FIA choose to use to police that rule. IMO, if the instrument the FIA are using can be shown to be faulty then the teams shouldn't be penalised for failing to comply with it. It's up to the FIA to find reliable methods of policing their regulations. As I already said, if a car's FIA RPM sensor was faulty, it'd be daft for the FIA to insist that the team set the rev limit to, say, 12k instead of 15k if the team could provide data which proved that there was a fault with the sensor. Same thing applies here. |
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#3761 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
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Quote:
Surely the point of having a fuel flow meter is because the amount of fuel the car is carrying isn't actually policed? The regulation is that they use a maximum of 100kg for the race, that's from green light to chequered flag, but the car has to get to the grid (potentially doing several laps via the pits), do the parade lap and get back to the pits after the race and still provide a sample so they will actually carry upwards of 110kg and if they want to carry more that's up to them as it's a weight disadvantage if they carry extra fuel they can't use. So the fuel flow rate has to be measured as it's the only way to accurately measure the over-all fuel usage during the race. Why there's a limit on actual flow rate though is beyond me.
I know that any additional form-up laps count toward the race-distance (as we saw on Sunday) so perhaps the initial form-up lap counts as part of the "race" too and the teams are issued with a regulated 100kg of fuel to begin with? If that was the case, I don't think there's any potential for unfair advantage due to extra running. I mean, unless you had a car that could run super-lean, you're never going to deliberately waste fuel on the form-up lap just so you've got a lighter car for the race. You're always going to do the form-up lap as efficiently as possible so you've got as much fuel as possible remaining for the race, itself. |
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#3762 |
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Back after a much-needed break
Posts: 6,406
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I can't help but wonder if the reported errors with the fuel-flow sensors are consistent from one car to another. If not, the ultimate performance of each car will be influenced by how big an error is shown.
Imagine there are two cars, and each is actually using 100kg/hr of fuel. However, car A's sensor reads 102kg/hr and car B's sensor reads 115kg/hr. The driver of car B is going to have to turn down the wick a lot more than the driver of car A so will be at a disadvantage. I'm also troubled by the use of the word "consistently" when applied to the limit of 100kg/hr. If someone does it a couple of times in the middle of the race, do they just get a warning? If someone deliberately does it a couple of times on the last lap to take the lead and win, do they just get a warning too? I'm glad this has come to a head now, rather than later in the season as it clearly needs to be sorted. Personally, I also favour the KISS principle. A measured 100kg of fuel is put into each car prior to the race and they can use it however they want. Job done! (Anyone starting from the pitlane so not doing the parade lap(s) will be held for a predetermined amount of time before being released in order to offset the fuel saved). |
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#3763 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Buckingham
Posts: 28,534
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You were doing fine with KISS until that last proviso.
I see no-one has yet replied to my comments on the problems with excessive power boosts. |
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#3764 |
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Solihull, West Mids
Posts: 1,609
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Don't post here too often.
Am delighted to see Williams return from their years in the wilderness, although I am not sure that Bottas and/or Massa will show the best of the car through the season. Will there be a queue of drivers lobbying to replace Bottas for 2015? Massa is on a 3 year contract. I think the number of engine failures will be high throughout the season, and some teams or drivers may exceed their quota. from WIkipedia : "Drivers who use a sixth engine will start the race from the pit lane, as opposed to the ten-place grid penalty handed down for going over the engine quota in previous season" - I expect to see this happening, from Singapore onwards. |
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#3765 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
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Quote:
I can't help but wonder if the reported errors with the fuel-flow sensors are consistent from one car to another. If not, the ultimate performance of each car will be influenced by how big an error is shown.
Imagine there are two cars, and each is actually using 100kg/hr of fuel. However, car A's sensor reads 102kg/hr and car B's sensor reads 115kg/hr. The driver of car B is going to have to turn down the wick a lot more than the driver of car A so will be at a disadvantage. I'm also troubled by the use of the word "consistently" when applied to the limit of 100kg/hr. If someone does it a couple of times in the middle of the race, do they just get a warning? If someone deliberately does it a couple of times on the last lap to take the lead and win, do they just get a warning too? I'm glad this has come to a head now, rather than later in the season as it clearly needs to be sorted. Personally, I also favour the KISS principle. A measured 100kg of fuel is put into each car prior to the race and they can use it however they want. Job done! (Anyone starting from the pitlane so not doing the parade lap(s) will be held for a predetermined amount of time before being released in order to offset the fuel saved). |
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#3766 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
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[quote=coughthecat;71779744]I can't help but wonder if the reported errors with the fuel-flow sensors are consistent from one car to another. If not, the ultimate performance of each car will be influenced by how big an error is shown. Imagine there are two cars, and each is actually using 100kg/hr of fuel. However, car A's sensor reads 102kg/hr and car B's sensor reads 115kg/hr. The driver of car B is going to have to turn down the wick a lot more than the driver of car A so will be at a disadvantage. Thing is, as well, the meters might all have an accuracy of, say, 1% but if one is reading 1% high and the other is reading 1% low then you've immediately got a potential 2% difference between one car and another even though they're both, apparently, in spec'. To be fair, even if the meters have a fairly rough intrinsic accuracy, it is possible to minimise the problem by hooking them all up to a flow-rig, together, setting the flow to 100kg/hr and then twiddling the meters so they all read 100kg/hr at a true flow of 100kg/hr. Even so, that still doesn't account for stuff like sensor resolution, hysteresis, linearity or fluctuations in fuel flow due to pressure changes in the system. Quote:
I'm also troubled by the use of the word "consistently" when applied to the limit of 100kg/hr. If someone does it a couple of times in the middle of the race, do they just get a warning? If someone deliberately does it a couple of times on the last lap to take the lead and win, do they just get a warning too?
I suppose, to give the FIA the benefit of the doubt, it might well be that every time DR used full throttle the FIA f/m was showing 102kg/hr or something but, again, RBR will know that, at 15,000 rpm, with an ambient temperature of X and barometric pressure of Y their fuel-injection system is only pumping fuel at a rate of, say, 98.7kg/hr so they probably felt justified in ignoring the FIA f/m and, if we're honest, they're probably doing this deliberately as a means of discrediting the technology.Wouldn't be surprised if the Renault engine is thirsty at max' rev's but efficient at lower rev's so it's in their interest to challenge this rule. |
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#3767 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
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Quote:
I see no-one has yet replied to my comments on the problems with excessive power boosts.
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#3768 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Quote:
The issue is not with the FIA's sensors, but with Red Bull using their own sensors. The theory is that the FIA's sensors are consistent with each other and the Red Bull's one has no official FIA calibration, or even sanction.
Which is why they feel confident in asserting that the FIA flowmeter was faulty and not worth considering. |
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#3769 |
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Back after a much-needed break
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Quote:
You were doing fine with KISS until that last proviso.
You can still keep it simple but cover any eventualities such as cars at the back of the grid trying to save a bit of fuel by starting from the pit-lane! Cunning these F1 teams when it comes to potential loopholes!Quote:
I see no-one has yet replied to my comments on the problems with excessive power boosts.
I'd actually rather have an additional power boost which has a downside for the user; ie. the use of extra fuel which means fuel-saving elsewhere in the race; rather than the artificial DRS. |
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#3770 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,272
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RBR always bend the rules where they can. They've been caught this time and shown some fairly insufferable arrogance as well. I've read they were warned during the race as the infraction came to light, as were Ferrari and Mercedes, and decided to ignore the FIA. Ferrari and Mercedes didn't and guess who kept their points?
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#3771 |
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Back after a much-needed break
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Quote:
The issue is not with the FIA's sensors, but with Red Bull using their own sensors. The theory is that the FIA's sensors are consistent with each other and the Red Bull's one has no official FIA calibration, or even sanction.
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#3772 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Quote:
Personally, I don't have a problem with big power boosts. It would primarily be used on acceleration as top-speed tends to be limited by a combination of gearing, aerodynamics and the rev limiter. When KERS was introduced, that gave a power boost and I don't recall it being a safety issue. DRS also creates a significant speed differential between cars, and that's now part and parcel of racing. Indy cars have push to pass, and I don't think it's a problem.
I'd actually rather have an additional power boost which has a downside for the user; ie. the use of extra fuel which means fuel-saving elsewhere in the race; rather than the artificial DRS. We've already got KERS, which can be dialed-up to assist with passing so there's clearly no fundamental aversion to "overtaking aids" and the idea of a system where one driver might use boost to create a gap at the start of a race, only to be caught by another driver who's saved his fuel early on, seems like a great idea to me. Just to add another facet to the discussion, maybe the new rules regarding fixed gear ratios have something to do with this too? I mean, apparently the cars now have 8 speed gearboxes but they barely use 8th in Oz because it's reserved for circuits like Monza and Spa. Seems like more freedom with boost would allow teams to run higher levels of torque and be able to pull higher gears, possibly saving fuel. The permutations are almost endless; mind-boggling. Course, judging by the sideways action, on Sunday, it seems like the drivers already have more torque than they can handle so I doubt they'd have cause to boost the engines up to 1,000+bhp even if the fuel-flow restrictions were lifted. |
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#3773 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 12,248
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For once I felt a bit sorry for an Aussie.
Will this fuel problem be an issue all season? |
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#3774 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
The data RBR has in regard to fuel consumption might not be FIA certified but you can be damned sure it'll be perfectly accurate or it wouldn't be suitable for operating an F1 engine.
Which is why they feel confident in asserting that the FIA flowmeter was faulty and not worth considering. |
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#3775 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
RBR always bend the rules where they can. They've been caught this time and shown some fairly insufferable arrogance as well. I've read they were warned during the race as the infraction came to light, as were Ferrari and Mercedes, and decided to ignore the FIA. Ferrari and Mercedes didn't and guess who kept their points?
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