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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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gomezz
01-04-2014
You would think LH would learn a little German as he is now part of a German team.
BinaryDad
02-04-2014
Originally Posted by ACU:
“You have not been able to follow a car closely for at least a couple of decades. Travelling in a cars dirty air has always been a problem. Many a time over the last couple of decades, you were able to catch the car infront, but werent able to overtake it. ”

It's been a case ever since cars relied on aero dynamics. As team added more and more winglets, it became worse and worse. But here's the thing....downforce only increases the maximum force that a tire can produce, and that maximum force also relies on how constant the contact patch between the track and the tire is.

The grooved tires made the contact patch not just smaller, but also less constant due to the shape of the ridges. Aerodynamic wake has always been a problem, but it became even bigger when the grooved tires were introduced.

If you compare how closely cars can follow now through the corners with reduce wake and also slick tires, with the old aero with grooved tires then you'll see that it has been massively improved.

The real issue is driver skill and also the tire compounds themselves. Which being me to....

Originally Posted by ACU:
“Thats why they brought in DRS, to allow a car to pass, once they got up close to the car infront.”

No, the brought in DRS to cover up for a lack of drive skill in passing. The braking distances are so short, that most drivers lack the ability to think and react where you would traditional pass. Add to that the fact that the tires are no longer durable enough to withstand repeated increased stressed due to late braking and trail braking, the FIA were scratching their heads at how to make it easier.

They wanted every driver to be like Lewis Hamilton, but without the massive ability to control a car under repeated, heavy braking.

Instead of increasing the braking distances by banning CF brakes, they messed about with one of the most critical components, the tires. And then they took away any real racing skill requirement by adding DRS. All that was required, was that they drive faster than the guy in front either due to tire wear differences, fuel saving differences or some other factor related to strategy as opposed to driving.

What many F1 drivers don't still seem to understand, is that passing is not just about trying to go around the racing line faster than the guy in front. The reliance on aerodynamics, as well as the fact that there's a car occupying the racing line makes that a rather....unintelligent way to make a pass.

The ideal way is to go OFF the racing line when you're out of the worst of the aero wake before you make the pass, brake late, go faster around the outside and deny the apex to the guy in front. That means the guy in front has had their racing line and pace absolutely wrecked for that turn. But that requires skill - the ability to think ahead, to have room in your head for more than just following the racing line and to have the required amount of ability to handle a car under harsh breaking.

See Schumacher and Hamilton as prime examples of this. especially under the pre-slicks/drs era. See Maldonando and Perez as examples of drivers who "get it" but don't have the same conviction or ability to pull it off.
ACU
02-04-2014
Originally Posted by The Wulfrunian:
“How dare two people talk in their native tongue?”

On the face of it you would think so. However Vettel was talking in English at one point to Rosberg. Not sure who switched to German first, will have to watch a replay to find out.

This goes back to when Rosberg and Hamilton were team mates as they were coming through the ranks. Rosberg knows around 5 languages, so he would talk to each driver in their mother tongue, this used to annoy Hamilton, which is why Rosberg did it. This is from an interview Sky did with Hamilton when he joined Mercedes. Some of the details maybe a bit hazy, not sure of Hamilton said 5 or 6 languages that Rosberg knew. Rosberg, is probably just trying to get under Hamiltons skin.


BinaryDad - cant argue with most of what you wrote. However the reason why the FIA brought in DRS, was to give the spectators more overtaking. It was one of the main complaints about F1 - the lack of overtaking. To cover up for lack of driver skill, may have been a consideration, but not the main reason for introducing it. I also think you are being a bit disrespectful to most of the drivers on the grid. Most of them, can overtake, and have the skill and racecraft to overtake. The biggest difference is the car. Put them all in the same car, and you will probably see a different side to them. I do agree, there are some dummies in F1 though, but not many.
BinaryDad
02-04-2014
Originally Posted by ACU:
“On the face of it you would think so. However Vettel was talking in English at one point to Rosberg. Not sure who switched to German first, will have to watch a replay to find out.

This goes back to when Rosberg and Hamilton were team mates as they were coming through the ranks. Rosberg knows around 5 languages, so he would talk to each driver in their mother tongue, this used to annoy Hamilton, which is why Rosberg did it. This is from an interview Sky did with Hamilton when he joined Mercedes. Some of the details maybe a bit hazy, not sure of Hamilton said 5 or 6 languages that Rosberg knew. Rosberg, is probably just trying to get under Hamiltons skin. ”

Living in Germany, it can generally be considered rude and is often intended that way when people know that a non-German or non-native speaker is part of the group, and somebody switches the conversation to German. It's usually a very passive aggressive way to make somebody feel "left out".



From my own experiences, it's a common practice,and wouldn't surprise me in the least if either driver were to do something like that. To be honest, I would expect it more from Rosberg than Vettel. He may be good friends with Hamilton, but it's well known how Keke resisted a move to McLaren for Nico in 2010, scared that his son would not fare so well in comparison and that it may damage his career.

There are also rumors that Keke was *very* unhappy about Hamilton coming to Mercedes for the same reasons. It could be that Nico is feeding off that, and using small things to try and unsettle Hamilton. That's a lot of if's and buts and whacky theories on my part though.


Originally Posted by ACU:
“BinaryDad - cant argue with most of what you wrote. However the reason why the FIA brought in DRS, was to give the spectators more overtaking. It was one of the main complaints about F1 - the lack of overtaking. To cover up for lack of driver skill, may have been a consideration, but not the main reason for introducing it. I also think you are being a bit disrespectful to most of the drivers on the grid. Most of them, can overtake, and have the skill and racecraft to overtake. The biggest difference is the car. Put them all in the same car, and you will probably see a different side to them. I do agree, there are some dummies in F1 though, but not many.”

[/quote]

It could be that I'm being very harsh, but I'm not so sure about that. I'm sure many drivers are capable of it, especially the younger guys who haven't been brainwashed by a period as a test driver. But look at Bottas on Sunday as an example - he clearly had more pace, but couldn't seem to make the pass. Now that could be a skill or confidence issue, it could be a tires issue. Hell it could even be a track issue. But even with DRS, he could pass his slower team mate.

The simple fact is, that in the DRS era, we're still seeing precious few passes on a STRAIGHT section of track. I think plenty of drivers have the required skill, they just don't have the ability to apply that skill with the current tires and extremely short braking distances.
ACU
03-04-2014
Originally Posted by BinaryDad:
“Living in Germany, it can generally be considered rude and is often intended that way when people know that a non-German or non-native speaker is part of the group, and somebody switches the conversation to German. It's usually a very passive aggressive way to make somebody feel "left out".

From my own experiences, it's a common practice,and wouldn't surprise me in the least if either driver were to do something like that. To be honest, I would expect it more from Rosberg than Vettel. He may be good friends with Hamilton, but it's well known how Keke resisted a move to McLaren for Nico in 2010, scared that his son would not fare so well in comparison and that it may damage his career.

There are also rumors that Keke was *very* unhappy about Hamilton coming to Mercedes for the same reasons. It could be that Nico is feeding off that, and using small things to try and unsettle Hamilton. That's a lot of if's and buts and whacky theories on my part though.”

To be honest I think it is considered rude in most if not all cultures. I am able to speak more than one language, but wouldnt switch to Punjabi or Urdu (unless there was a good reason) if there was a non-Punjabi/Urdu speaking person in the group.

I think mind games, are part and parcel of modern sports, especially in football (think Fergy, Mourinho) and cricket (sledging). Would not be surprised if its part of other sports as well. Nico, is playing these mind games with Hamilton. Is it unsportsmanlike? I am sure people will have differing opinions. I think its fair enough, I would have thought most of these drivers are mentally tough enough to not let it bother them. It would probably have more affect on a rookie, rather than a seasoned professional.


Originally Posted by BinaryDad:
“It could be that I'm being very harsh, but I'm not so sure about that. I'm sure many drivers are capable of it, especially the younger guys who haven't been brainwashed by a period as a test driver. But look at Bottas on Sunday as an example - he clearly had more pace, but couldn't seem to make the pass. Now that could be a skill or confidence issue, it could be a tires issue. Hell it could even be a track issue. But even with DRS, he could pass his slower team mate.

The simple fact is, that in the DRS era, we're still seeing precious few passes on a STRAIGHT section of track. I think plenty of drivers have the required skill, they just don't have the ability to apply that skill with the current tires and extremely short braking distances.”

In the previous race, Bottas was able to overtake several cars without much problem. With the new boost and energy recovery systems, it seems the driver in the lead just needs to deploy the boost on the straights and that will negate the DRS of the leading car. Last year you only had 6 seconds of boost, this year its a lot more (cant remember the exact figure). However its plenty to use on both straights at Malaysia. Then again, Massa has a lot more racecraft, than most of the people Bottas overtook in the last race.
BinaryDad
04-04-2014
Interesting stuff from the BBC from Hamilton on his friendship with Rosberg. It might put the "talking in German" thing into perspective. (Lewis's quote in italics):

Quote:
“"With Mercedes currently dominating Formula 1, there is a lot of attention on the intra-team fight between Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg. So far, the drivers and team have handled the issue expertly, by saying they will be free to race, and not trying to hide that there will be inevitable problems.

"On Thursday, Lewis Hamilton was refreshingly open and blunt. 'What people need to understand is, people are always talking about us being friends and all that kind of stuff; I can count my friends on the fingers of one hand and I'm sure Nico can do the same. And he's not in my five and I'm not in his,' Hamilton said. 'The rest doesn't matter; we're here to win, we are here to race. We have a great amount of respect for each other, that's all we need. We are going to race and we are going to come across issues and troubles and we will get past them and we will keep racing.'"”

From what I know, Hamilton is also quite good friends or at least, gets along well with Vettel. Probably more so than with Rosberg.
Assa2
05-04-2014
I see Newey has been criticising the new engine rules. I wonder why? I suspect RB have finally realised there's only so much of the power unit deficit they can recover through aero so they are basically going to be running with a handicap all season now. Ironic that Newey is complaining when it was Renault who instigated the whole shift in the first place.

Also some interesting things being said yesterday about the fuel sensers, that it's really only the Renault runners who have had issues which means it's either a packaging issue or perhaps something to do with the actual fuel Renault use (Total). In any case it's looking more and more likely that there's no fundemental issue with the sensors themselves so RB's appeal is looking shaky.
JSemple3
05-04-2014
Watching 3rd Practice (on board with the cars) damn those V6'S sound so good!
Jesse Pinkman
05-04-2014
Oh no! Vettle out in Q2

Oh how my heart bleeds!



EDIT: And Alonso 10th!

Is it my birthday?
ati_qtimporta
05-04-2014
Originally Posted by Jesse Pinkman:
“Oh no! Vettle out in Q2

Oh how my heart bleeds!



EDIT: And Alonso 10th!

Is it my birthday? ”

Alonso said to Spanish media that he had problems with the engine (I guess the electrical) and the car each lap was slower.
Without problems I think he would have classified in a position close to Kimi.
But he knows the weaknesses of his car and even without problems, they have several teams ahead of Ferrari.
It'll be a difficult race and he has Vettel and Hulkemberg just behind his back.
We'll see.
Nessun Dorma
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by ACU:
“Sky have a bigger love with LH. So much so at times its embarrassing to watch.

After the race, when the top three drivers were in the 'waiting room' just before they go out onto the podium, Rosberg and Vettel were talking in German, whilst Lewis just sat there. I think Rosberg has started with the little mind games.

That friendship wont last till the end of the season.”

Originally Posted by The Wulfrunian:
“How dare two people talk in their native tongue?”

Originally Posted by gomezz:
“You would think LH would learn a little German as he is now part of a German team.”



Having lived in Switzwerland for nearly five years, Lewis Hamilton speaks German very well and gets by pretty well in French, Italian and Spanish.
gomezz
06-04-2014
So three people who all speak both English and German and the two Germans choose to speak German? Non-story then?
Assa2
06-04-2014
So Vettel blames brake issues for his bad display in qualifying yesterday. Did the team back this up at all? He's going to be getting seriously worried soon that his team-mate seems to have the measure of him over 1 lap. It's interesting that CH admitted the car was a dog this weekend and yet DR managed to get the 3rd best time. There seems to be a level of confusion in RB at the moment about just where they are.

We know that DR is a 1 lap specialist who doesn't tend to show the same pace in a race. We know the RB has good downforce but woeful top speed and that they've been flattered by the first 2 race weekends with wet qualifying and teams plodding through the race without showing much of their real pace. I suspect this may be the first race where Mercedes and perhaps one or two others push the envelope a bit in terms of race pace and strategy and we'll start to see the real pecking order . I wouldn't be surprised if the Mercs finish 30s or more ahead but I can see an almighty scrap for 3rd. Might actually be quite entertaining!
ICT User 77
06-04-2014
Should be interesting to see who gets 3rd place should the Mercs run away.

Would be good to see Williams or Force India there.
PandaPawPaw
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by ICT User 77:
“Should be interesting to see who gets 3rd place should the Mercs run away.

Would be good to see Williams or Force India there.”

Bottom AKA Bottas will no doubt.
ICT User 77
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“Bottom AKA Bottas will no doubt. ”

Perez could do it though. He's got just as good a car as Bottas I think.
ati_qtimporta
06-04-2014
It seems that Mercedes is the best team (by far) . The problem in my humble opinion is that this car is more than 1 second faster than others, and that in F1 is a world.
Last season was RB with a car more than 2 seconds faster, and all of us remember how boring it was. It's true that this is only the beggining of the season, but with such a difference, this season might be as boring as last.
And it's a pity, because if we look at the cars behind Mercedes, we can see several very good fights: FI, Williams, McLaren, Ferrari and RB.
On the other hand, now we'll see the real level of Vettel with a not dominant car. However, he already has 4 championships in his pocket.
PandaPawPaw
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by ICT User 77:
“Perez could do it though. He's got just as good a car as Bottas I think.”

I just can't see it happening. I reckon he'll put up a fight but drop back.
ICT User 77
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“I just can't see it happening. I reckon he'll put up a fight but drop back.”

We'll see.

Why where they predicting that the McLarens would fall out of Q2? It never seemed an issue and they got into Q3 quite comfortably.
PandaPawPaw
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by ICT User 77:
“We'll see.

Why where they predicting that the McLarens would fall out of Q2? It never seemed an issue and they got into Q3 quite comfortably.”

No idea. Crofty gets on my wick.
ICT User 77
06-04-2014
I like that Bahrain is now a night race.

It just looks really good watching the cars under the lights.
PandaPawPaw
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by ICT User 77:
“I like that Bahrain is now a night race.

It just looks really good watching the cars under the lights.”

At least I'll get to see a night race in Bahrain seeing as I never could in the recent F1 games as I only do 50% or less races and it never got dark till after that.
ICT User 77
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“At least I'll get to see a night race in Bahrain seeing as I never could in the recent F1 games as I only do 50% or less races and it never got dark till after that. ”

It's started already. lol
PandaPawPaw
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by ICT User 77:
“It's started already. lol”

Singapore's my fave night race. I love seeing cars and buses driving over head and around the circuit.
ICT User 77
06-04-2014
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“Singapore's my fave night race. I love seeing cars and buses driving over head and around the circuit.”

There's only three in the season. lol

Yeah talk to the Hulk Martin.
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