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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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crake
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“

And, in that hypothetical situation, why wouldn't the other driver just do the same thing and, thus, also be capable of challenging for points?

This makes no sense at all.”

How are you not following this!!

There are lots of reasons why a driver might not think it is right for them to mirror their team mate's tyre strategy. If you are stuck in mid-field with a car that does not over-take well, you might choose to stop less and hope that having fewer stops will bring you into contention some how, or you might be holding out for a change in weather, or you might just be waiting a few extra laps to enter the optimum window for your change etc etc
Leinxus
27-07-2014
I'm glad Hamilton didn't move over, they've been fudging his car up since the start of the season and expect him to just give his championship rival a free pass when he's fought all the way back from the pit lane due to yet another car failure?

If Rosberg was all over Hamiltons gearbox then it would be a different matter, but he wasn't, Hamilton moving over would have been disastrous for his championship chances (especially as we saw how quick Rosberg caught up at the end) and when your teams been so utterly incompetent with your car you have a right to carry on racing to close the gap in the championship standings, a gap that's there due to the teams failures.

If i was Lewis i'd be careful, think it's pretty clear where the teams loyalties lie.
roger_50
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“But strategically they were not fighting one another. Red Bull gained points on Mercedes today, albeit minimal. But they shouldn't have done.”

No. You can't have a strategic policy like that AND officially say both drivers are free to race eachother. It wouldn't make sense.

Even Lauda himself is now saying Lewis was right. There's a lot of confusion within the Mercedes team right now as to why the command was even given.

It's a 2-way dog fight for the championship. With their huge constructors lead in the bag, nothing else really matters now apart from LewisVNico.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Sorry, it just sounded as though you were accusing Mercedes of not worrying about reliability. I'm sure they're desperately working on the issues they're having.”

To be fair, if it was getting toward the end of the year and RBR or Williams were right behind Merc' then I could see why they might be justified in engineering something that gets them, say, a 1st and a 4th rather than a 3rd and 4th.

As it is, though, it looks like Merc' are going to romp the Constructors so it's really going to be a case of Hamilton and Rosberg just grasping for every available point toward the WDC, which is why I can understand why Hamilton and Rosberg might be doing rather selfish things.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by crake:
“How are you not following this!!”

Because you're not writing anything that makes sense.

You're saying that one driver might be ahead of another driver, on-track, but out of the points and the other driver could, somehow, adopt a pit strategy that'd allow him to finish well ahead of his team-mate and in the points.

In that kind of situation, why wouldn't both cars simply adopt that strategy, whatever it might be, and both be capable of finishing in the points?

It makes no sense.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Good, honest, interview from Hamilton there.

Just came straight out and said that letting Rosberg past would have cost him time and allowed Rosberg to take points off him.

How can anybody really criticise a driver for making a choice like that?
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Matt35:
“Its pretty hard to overtake on this track anyway. Its not like lewis was holding him up and rosberg still had to stop so Lewis did the right thing.”

For him, not for the team. He just said as much. Lewis Hamilton, what a teammate.
dansus
27-07-2014
Theres no way Hamilton should be letting his Nico past at this stage of the championship. Its a fight between the two of them and its absolutely right that Lewis would want to keep his team mate behind.

On a different strategy? Tough luck.

If they were behind in the constructors, and needed to get all the points they can get, then quite rightly Lewis should move over and play the team game.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“For him, not for the team. He just said as much. Lewis Hamilton, what a teammate.”

You think Merc' are likely to lose the WCC by 5 points or so?
Matt35
27-07-2014
Lewis summed it up. If he'd have let him past he would have lost points to nico and since the team have said there are no team orders. Why were they telling lewis to let him through? Can't have it both ways.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
FWIW, I suppose Hamilton is sort of "lucky" that Rosberg did finish right behind him.

If, after making his final pit-stop, Rosberg had gone on to finish, say, 7th or 8th then Hamilton could quite rightly be criticised for damaging Rosberg's race but, as things turned out, Hamilton can justify his actions because Rosberg would have almost certainly taken points off Lewis.

Wonder if that was some really accurate foresight from Lewis or just a bit of good luck?

After all, seems like the team wouldn't have been telling Lewis to let Rosberg past if they'd known that doing so would have actually given Rosberg the advantage over Hamilton... would they?
roger_50
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“
After all, seems like the team wouldn't have been telling Lewis to let Rosberg past if they'd known that doing so would have actually given Rosberg the advantage over Hamilton... would they?”

Well, this is the thing. I think the team have a lot of explaining to do to Lewis. It seemed reasonably obvious at the time that Lewis' old tyres and Nico with 1stop+new tyres was going to leave it a tight-run thing at the end.

They were effectively fighting for position when that order came. Very strange. The team really need to sort it out.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“FWIW, I suppose Hamilton is sort of "lucky" that Rosberg did finish right behind him.

If, after making his final pit-stop, Rosberg had gone on to finish, say, 7th or 8th then Hamilton could quite rightly be criticised for damaging Rosberg's race but, as things turned out, Hamilton can justify his actions because Rosberg would have almost certainly taken points off Lewis.

Wonder if that was some really accurate foresight from Lewis or just a bit of good luck?

After all, seems like the team wouldn't have been telling Lewis to let Rosberg past if they'd known that doing so would have actually given Rosberg the advantage over Hamilton... would they?”

They didn't want to give Ferrari or Red Bull the win. Sky reckon Rosberg would have finished second but he would have had a far better chance of victory but following the strategies through.
dansus
27-07-2014
Tell you what, next year could be a classic. If Renault can sort the engine, James Allison can do his magic on the Ferrari chassis and Williams can keep up the development pace, we could see 8 cars battling for the lead.

And i havent even mentioned Mclaren yet..
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by roger_50:
“Well, this is the thing. I think the team have a lot of explaining to do to Lewis. It seemed reasonably obvious at the time that Lewis' old tyres and Nico with 1stop+new tyres was going to leave it a tight-run thing at the end.

They were effectively fighting for position when that order came. Very strange. The team really need to sort it out.”

Well, I suppose things are clearer with 20/20 hindsight.

At one point during the race, IIRC, Rosberg pitted and soon after Hamilton was summat like 23 seconds ahead of Rosberg, thus giving Hamilton a pit-stop in hand, due to Hamilton having a clear track and Rosberg getting traffic.

I suspect that's what the team were using as the benchmark as to what'd happen after Rosberg's last stop as well.
I'm guessing that they figured a pit-stop would drop Rosberg back by about 20 seconds and he'd struggle with traffic so they figured he'd be fighting just to finish somewhere behind Lewis.

Don't forget, as well, that after his last pit-stop Hamilton was told to hold station 10 seconds behind Alonso as well, presumably on the basis that they thought Alonso would stop again.

Seems like, although it all turned out fairly well in the end, Merc's strategy was a bit of a mess today.
d'@ve
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by roger_50:
“Well, this is the thing. I think the team have a lot of explaining to do to Lewis. It seemed reasonably obvious at the time that Lewis' old tyres and Nico with 1stop+new tyres was going to leave it a tight-run thing at the end.

They were effectively fighting for position when that order came. Very strange. The team really need to sort it out.”

I agree, and as I mentioned earlier, the battle between the two was a factor in Mercedes not ordering Lewis to give up the place: they sensibly realise that it's not only about the constructors. If Toto had personally ordered Lewis to allow the pass, he would have done it but sensibly, Toto had more sense, he held back (probably because of the qualifying debacle) and effectively said so in interview. He has to strike a balance for both sides of the garage and this time, I think he got it just right.

It also keeps the championship more interesting and that benefits the sport and fans in general.
roger_50
27-07-2014
@Si..

It's still way too much of a tight run thing to jeapordise Lewis' fight with Nico though. It was a call that was weighted 100% in Rosberg's favour, even if they didn't have the full picture.

And in a team which allows full racing, it's an odd command to have been given at that moment.
Matt35
27-07-2014
Ted just did his analysis of the race to see if rosberg would have won if lewis let him pass. He said rosberg would have gained 10 secs. Rosberg and Lewis's times for them 10 laps were about the same around 1.28. So there is no way to know if rosberg would have won. Only thing i do know is that he would have finished in front of lewis which again makes Lewis's decision right.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Well, I suppose things are clearer with 20/20 hindsight.

At one point during the race, IIRC, Rosberg pitted and soon after Hamilton was summat like 23 seconds ahead of Rosberg, thus giving Hamilton a pit-stop in hand, due to Hamilton having a clear track and Rosberg getting traffic.

I suspect that's what the team were using as the benchmark as to what'd happen after Rosberg's last stop as well.
I'm guessing that they figured a pit-stop would drop Rosberg back by about 20 seconds and he'd struggle with traffic so they figured he'd be fighting just to finish somewhere behind Lewis.

Don't forget, as well, that after his last pit-stop Hamilton was told to hold station 10 seconds behind Alonso as well, presumably on the basis that they thought Alonso would stop again.

Seems like, although it all turned out fairly well in the end, Merc's strategy was a bit of a mess today.”

Ferrari got the jump on Mercedes by keeping Alonso out - they didn't expect that and his tyres were dead by the end. At the time, I thought they were asking Hamilton to let Rosberg through so the latter could avoid the Bottas/Raikkonen battle after he pitted. In hindsight he could have done even better.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by roger_50:
“@Si..

It's still way too much of a tight run thing to jeapordise Lewis' fight with Nico though. It was a call that was weighted 100% in Rosberg's favour, even if they didn't have the full picture.

And in a team which allows full racing, it's an odd command to have been given at that moment.”

Well, I gotta say, I hope it is just a case of the strategy all being a bit messy today.

The only alternative would seem to be that they knew the strategy would favour Rosberg but they hoped Hamilton would "just follow ze oders" without question.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Well, I gotta say, I hope it is just a case of the strategy all being a bit messy today.

The only alternative would seem to be that they knew the strategy would favour Rosberg but they hoped Hamilton would "just follow ze oders" without question. ”

Since when has Hamilton followed orders without question?
Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Old Endeavour:
“I don't know why Hamilton bothers turning up for Qualifying as he seems to do just as well for anywhere! He could take the day off. ”

LOL It would certainly save on fuel and tyres.
Fudd
27-07-2014
It's worth noting even Hamilton didn't seem concerned when asked to move over about Rosberg pitting and finishing ahead of him. He was worried about whether he would have to pit again himself which would have definitely put him on the back foot.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“They didn't want to give Ferrari or Red Bull the win. Sky reckon Rosberg would have finished second but he would have had a far better chance of victory but following the strategies through.”

See, that doesn't make any sense either.

You can't say that Merc' made the call in order to allow Rosberg to take the victory from RBR or Ferrari and, at the same time, refuse to accept that they were asking Hamilton to do something that would give Rosberg an advantage over him.

It's got to be one thing or the other.

The team were either assuming Rosberg would be fighting to claim 5th position after his pit-stop, they didn't care about who won and Hamilton was being an arse to delay Rosberg.

Or

The team knew Rosberg might've taken the win after his pitstop, in which case they're favouring one driver over the other and Hamilton was perfectly justified in his actions.

Take your pick.
Matt35
27-07-2014
Listening to rosberg on the radio asking them why lewis isn't letting him past was embarrassing and he should be too and I would say the same if it was lewis as well.
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