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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Hamilton might have finished fourth but the team would have gained more from Rosberg who would have finished first or second.

Sky just seeing it from Hamilton's view as per normal.”

And if they had brought Hamilton in, before Rosberg, for brand spanking new tyres (instead of the used ones Rosberg was fitted with), he might have won.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Since when has Hamilton followed orders without question? ”

TBH, I always think that used to be one of Hamilton's great weaknesses, probably as a result of being looked-after at McLaren.
Seems like he'd often ask the team what they wanted him to do, rather than telling them what he wanted.

Originally Posted by Fudd:
“It's worth noting even Hamilton didn't seem concerned when asked to move over about Rosberg pitting and finishing ahead of him. He was worried about whether he would have to pit again himself which would have definitely put him on the back foot.”

Gotta agree with you there.

Frankly, I just don't think anybody realised just how strongly Rosberg might finish.
I think Hamilton was just worried about staying in front in case he had to pit again and the team were worried that Rosberg might finish in 6th or 7th.

As I said, Lewis is sort of lucky that things turned out the way they did because it justifies his decision and leaves the team with quite a bit of explaining to do, rather than leaving him to explain why his decision left his team-mate stuck in, say, 6th or 7th.
Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“They're trying to do best by the team. Letting Rosberg though when asked would have probably resulted in a 1 and 4. Or possibly 1 and 3 as Hamilton could have driven his own race instead of looking in his mirrors for a large part of it. I don't think it was putting one driver above the other - if roles were reversed I think they would have asked Rosberg to move. Would he have done? Well, I highly doubt he will if it happens again now.”

This is not a "team" sport. It is a sport where one person wins a championship.
Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by roger_50:
“That's all fine - but you can't have all that and also say you allow the two drivers to race eachother. ie, do what's in their individual best interests to stay ahead of their teammate.

I'd be absolutely fine with Lewis slowing down if that was the team policy. But it's not.”

Indeed. There has just been a summit of all the team principals, to discuss how to beef up the entertainment (as if it needs beefing up, going by the last two races and especially in Bahrain), if team orders demanded that places are relinquished, based on the choice of a mediocre finish for the "team," then the future of the sport (remember that, this is a sport) is very uncertain.
Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“For him, not for the team. He just said as much. Lewis Hamilton, what a teammate.”

I wonder if you are at all confused over the concept of what Lewis's job is?
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Matt35:
“Listening to rosberg on the radio asking them why lewis isn't letting him past was embarrassing and he should be too and I would say the same if it was lewis as well.”

He said in the post race interview that he didn't ask for Hamilton to move - that was a team decision because the pair were on different strategies. I would be fuming too if I had been told my teammate had been ordered to move across as we were doing different races and he didn't.

He was calm in the interview which suggests he realises it wasn't as different as he was led to believe.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Nessun Dorma:
“I wonder if you are at all confused over the concept of what Lewis's job is?”

Perhaps there's a clause in Lewis' contract which forces him to do stuff to allow the team to win a Constructors championship by at least 300 points?

I mean, it's half way through the season and Merc' only have a 180 point lead so it's only right that the drivers do what they have to to consolidate the team's lead, right?
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Nessun Dorma:
“I wonder if you are at all confused over the concept of what Lewis's job is?”

Yes, he is a driver for the Mercedes TEAM.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Yes, he is a driver for the Mercedes TEAM.”

And do you think that the TEAM having a 180-odd point lead is insufficient in some way?
Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Matt35:
“Listening to rosberg on the radio asking them why lewis isn't letting him past was embarrassing and he should be too and I would say the same if it was lewis as well.”

I think Nico explained it quite well (and don't forget, we don't hear everything from "team radio"), he said that he was told be the team that Lewis will be moving over for him and Nico was asking when that was going to be happening.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Gotta agree with you there.

Frankly, I just don't think anybody realised just how strongly Rosberg might finish.
I think Hamilton was just worried about staying in front in case he had to pit again and the team were worried that Rosberg might finish in 6th or 7th.

As I said, Lewis is sort of lucky that things turned out the way they did because it justifies his decision and leaves the team with quite a bit of explaining to do, rather than leaving him to explain why his decision left his team-mate stuck in, say, 6th or 7th.”

Yes, going through the arguments I think you're right. If Rosberg hadn't managed to clear the Bottas/Raikkonen battle he would have had a case to answer. And I do think that's what the team was concerned about.

I still maintain the team would have got a better result as a whole had Hamilton let Rosberg through when asked.
d'@ve
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Yes, going through the arguments I think you're right. If Rosberg hadn't managed to clear the Bottas/Raikkonen battle he would have had a case to answer. And I do think that's what the team was concerned about.

I still maintain the team would have got a better result as a whole had Hamilton let Rosberg through when asked.”

Bottom line: Hamilton needed the points much more than the team OR Rosberg. Eventually, the team realised that. The Team Principal anyway.
Nessun Dorma
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Yes, he is a driver for the Mercedes TEAM.”

He is a Formula One racing driver, whose job it is, is to win the Formula One World Drivers' Championship.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“And do you think that the TEAM having a 180-odd point lead is insufficient in some way?”

Possibly.

I presume they are awarded money for positions as well? I know Mercedes isn't poor but taking money away from rivals is always a help.

But as said above, I think you're right with your assessment. The win would have been a very unexpected bonus.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by d'@ve:
“Bottom line: Hamilton needed the points much more than the team OR Rosberg. Eventually, the team realised that. The Team Principal anyway.”

Though I think Toto might have put his foot down had Hamilton's car not caught fire yesterday.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Nessun Dorma:
“I think Nico explained it quite well (and don't forget, we don't hear everything from "team radio"), he said that he was told be the team that Lewis will be moving over for him and Nico was asking when that was going to be happening.”

I suppose that sort of thing is an easy target for mickey-taking, regardless of where the request originally came from.

On the one hand, regardless of whether he asked for it or not, Rosberg certainly seemed to be bleating about it not happening quite a bit but, OTOH, if Rosberg's been told he doesn't need to attack Hamilton cos' he's going to be given the position then it's probably not surprising that he gets a bit upset about it after sitting around, waiting, for half a dozen laps.

Course, my mind goes back to Turkey, where both Hamilton and Button were told to dial their engines back and hold station, but Button decided it'd be better if he overtook Hamilton and then they started the holding-station thing.
Didn't take Lewis half a dozen laps to realise he'd been shafted. In fact, he took the lead back after about 3 corners.

You snooze, you lose.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Nessun Dorma:
“He is a Formula One racing driver, whose job it is, is to win the Formula One World Drivers' Championship.”

This is always an arguing point in my opinion. The driver will say they have to do the best for them (and it seems to depend on nationality whether that's seen as a good thing or not); the team will say they're driving for them.
TheToonArmy
27-07-2014
The fact of the matter is that Rosberg was not close enough for Lewis to let past something all the commentators seemed to agree with.

Any top driver would have done the same today, with the exception of Massa

Mercs have already won the Constructors.

The race is between the drivers, well done lewis
Hairy_Caramel
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Nessun Dorma:
“I'm a bit confused, are you implying racism doesn't exist?”

I'm implying that the Hamilton fanboys who speculate that Hamilton's problems are due to a racist agenda at his own team, probably should give their head a shake.
elfcurry
27-07-2014
My respect for the Mercedes team was diminished by the 'order' for Hamilton to let Rosberg through. Is this a sport or not?

As a team they have a huge lead. It really doesn't enhance their position to ask their no. 2 driver to give way to their no. 1 driver but it certainly damages their public image.

If they were well behind in the constructors' championship but their no.1 driver was close to (ahead or behind) a driver from another team, then team orders would make sense to help their main man win the drivers championship, but not as things are now.
Hairy_Caramel
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by elfcurry:
“My respect for the Mercedes team was diminished by the 'order' for Hamilton to let Rosberg through. Is this a sport or not?

As a tem they have a huge lead. It really doesn't enhance their position to ask their no. 2 driver to give way to their no. 1 driver and it certainly damages their public image.

If they were well behind in the constructors' championship but their no.1 still had narrow lead over a driver from another team, then team orders would make sense. But not as things are now.”

Mercedes don't have a "No.1 driver" there's parity between the despite assertions from others. The strategists determined at that point in the race Rosberg would have had better chance of gaining more points hence the request.

You are right to question it though, this is supposedly a race afterall.
elfcurry
27-07-2014
"Mercedes don't have a "No.1 driver" there's parity between the despite assertions from others."
If true, there's even less reason to issue team orders. I was taking a worst case (from Hamilton's perspective) view.
mattlamb
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“They weren't racing each other though. Rosberg was aiming for the win. Due to tyre drop off Hamilton wasn't.”

Lewis Hamilton was also racing fro the win at that stage. At the time he was fighting Fernando Alonso for the lead of the race.
He (and the team) weren't to know that the tyre wear later on would mean that Daniel Ricciardo could overtake them both. It took a really good move for the Red Bull to get past Lewis because a Mercedes is considerably quicker than a Red Bull in a straight line.
It was entirely possible that Daniel would not be able to get by Lewis by the end of the race at the time when team orders were being issued.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Hairy_Caramel:
“Mercedes don't have a "No.1 driver" there's parity between the despite assertions from others. The strategists determined at that point in the race Rosberg would have had better chance of gaining more points hence the request.”

If that's the case, seems like Hamilton would have been daft to comply and the team would be wrong to ask.

Is it not more likely, though, that the team were actually concerned that Rosberg was going to end up 7th or summat?
Hairy_Caramel
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by elfcurry:
“"Mercedes don't have a "No.1 driver" there's parity between the despite assertions from others."
If true, there's even less reason to issue team orders. I was taking a worst case (from Hamilton's perspective) view.”

Try reading the rest of my post.
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