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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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DadDancer
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by TheToonArmy:
“The fact of the matter is that Rosberg was not close enough for Lewis to let past something all the commentators seemed to agree with.

Any top driver would have done the same today, with the exception of Massa

Mercs have already won the Constructors.

The race is between the drivers, well done lewis”

agreed, Rosberg wasn't even in the DRS zone. There was no way Hamilton would have pulled over. Not in a million years
Hairy_Caramel
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“If that's the case, seems like Hamilton would have been daft to comply and the team would be wrong to ask.

Is it not more likely, though, that the team were actually concerned that Rosberg was going to end up 7th or summat?”

Or as I said in the rest of the post I made you have conveniently ignored; the team strategists at Mercedes thought Rosberg had a better chance of acquiring more points at that moment in time. This is something a few others on this thread have highlighted.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by mattlamb:
“Lewis Hamilton was also racing fro the win at that stage. At the time he was fighting Fernando Alonso for the lead of the race.
He (and the team) weren't to know that the tyre wear later on would mean that Daniel Ricciardo could overtake them both. It took a really good move for the Red Bull to get past Lewis because a Mercedes is considerably quicker than a Red Bull in a straight line.
It was entirely possible that Daniel would not be able to get by Lewis by the end of the race at the time when team orders were being issued.”

This is very true as well.

Given that Alonso and Vettel, amongst others, had already stopped and were planning on running to the end of the race, it seemed like Hamilton's race strategy would be a fairly solid one to get him to the end.

With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to say that Rosberg might have done better if Lewis had let him past when asked but, at the time, for all anybody knew, we might've ended up with a rerun of the Bahrain race, where Hamilton would be able to hold off Rosberg on the hard tyre.
And, of course, given how difficult overtaking is in Hungary, it's one of the best tracks to attempt a defensive strategy.
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Hairy_Caramel:
“Or as I said in the rest of the post I made you have conveniently ignored; the team strategists at Mercedes thought Rosberg had a better chance of acquiring more points at that moment in time. This is something a few others on this thread have highlighted.”

Probably because almost everybody else here accepts that a 174 point lead in the constructors championship means that Merc' aren't in a position where they need to be applying team orders simply to maximise their overall race points.
Fudd
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“If that's the case, seems like Hamilton would have been daft to comply and the team would be wrong to ask.

Is it not more likely, though, that the team were actually concerned that Rosberg was going to end up 7th or summat?”

Rosberg had serious issues overtaking Vergne earlier in the race so I think the above is exactly the point. They thought Rosberg might have issues trying to overtake Raikkonen and especially Bottas (remembering how Bottas held Hamilton back last week) so were trying to get the jump. Unfortunately (for Rosberg) Hamilton wasn't playing ball. Fortunately (for Hamilton) it didn't particularly matter. Hamilton did cost the team a higher finishing position via Rosberg but in the great scheme of things I think the team got the result they expected - maybe they thought they would get ahead of Alonso but I think Ferrari played a clever strategy with him.
Hairy_Caramel
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Probably because almost everybody else here accepts that a 174 point lead in the constructors championship means that Merc' aren't in a position where they need to be applying team orders simply to maximise their overall race points.”

Missed the ****ing point again. Engage your brain, Si.
Puterkid
27-07-2014
Having witnessed Rosbergs interview post qualifying, where he showed obvious delight in the fate that befell Hamilton, whilst adding that it was a shame that it meant he would not be able to race Hamilton on the track, and then, getting into a race despite the odds, he whinged like a spoilt toddler that Hamilton wasn't letting him gon past. The shocking thing was that the 'bosses' obviously felt the same way, and told Hamilton to let him go past!!!
Good for Hamilton for ignoring the 'order'. And good for him for beating Rosberg in the race, fair and square, despite having started from the pit lane, whilst Rosberg started on pole!!
It shows who is the superior driving, IMO.
alanwarwic
27-07-2014
I'm slightly wondering if Hamilton will have an available car to start from the back of the grid/pit lane in a fortnights time.

Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Hairy_Caramel:
“Missed the ****ing point again. Engage your brain, Si.”

Well, what exactly is the "****ing point" if it isn't that Hamilton was being asked to do something that assisted Rosberg at his own expense or that he was being asked to do something to assist the team?

Engage your fingers and spell it out.
Minkinit
27-07-2014
Merc had screwed the strategies when they put hamilton on prime tyres.

Hamilton overtook rosberg in the pit window and had legitimate track position but was not given the best strategy to get him over the line, when he pitted.

rosberg was screwed when he was stuck behind hamilton, who was given a sub optimum strategy.

Merc have always said the splitting strageties is to give the drivers a chance to race towards the end but today it didnt. The duel was at the point when hamilton was given a team order

Both drivers have a reason to feel agreived today
d'@ve
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Though I think Toto might have put his foot down had Hamilton's car not caught fire yesterday.”

Yes, I agree that Toto cut Hamilton a bit of slack because of that (added to the fact that Hamilton has suffered from no-fault mechanical issues more than Rosberg this season).
elfcurry
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Probably because almost everybody else here accepts that a 174 point lead in the constructors championship means that Merc' aren't in a position where they need to be applying team orders simply to maximise their overall race points.”

Precisely and succinctly put. Further - such team orders when not necessary for the team are a slap in the face to the disadvantaged driver and cause ill-will. Hamilton's had a run of bad luck recently and getting orders from the team to throw the race when there's no realistic team advantage will make him less likely to fight for them in future and may adversely affect the overall team result.
Mythica
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by DadDancer:
“agreed, Rosberg wasn't even in the DRS zone. There was no way Hamilton would have pulled over. Not in a million years”

Yes he was. I agree with what Hamilton did, but Rosberg was in the DRS zone on a few occasions before dropping back.
thorr
27-07-2014
I reckon Bernie is paying someone to "fix" Hamiltons car for quali, knowing there will be one helluva show come race day - good for the sponsors! Hamilton has made up 40-odd places in the last 3 races - quite an achievement!
gomezz
27-07-2014
Seems to me Nico lost the race when he allowed himself to get stuck behing Vergne for so many laps losing buckets of times and burning up his tyres so forcing into an extra stop strategy. A good driver in the best car would have been past and away in short order as Lewis showed. Why should Lewis be furthered hindered by Nico's inability to get past a much slower car?
TheToonArmy
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“Seems to me Nico lost the race when he allowed himself to get stuck behing Vergne for so many laps losing buckets of times and burning up his tyres so forcing into an extra stop strategy. A good driver in the best car would have been past and away in short order as Lewis showed. Why should Lewis be furthered hindered by Nico's inability to get past a much slower car?”

And what a great overtake that was
Si_Crewe
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“Seems to me Nico lost the race when he allowed himself to get stuck behing Vergne for so many laps losing buckets of times and burning up his tyres so forcing into an extra stop strategy. A good driver in the best car would have been past and away in short order as Lewis showed. Why should Lewis be furthered hindered by Nico's inability to get past a much slower car?”

Was considering pointing out the same thing myself.

Rosberg sat behind Vergne for a bunch of laps, losing time to the leaders, and then, when he finally gets out of the way, it took Hamilton something like half a lap to pass Vergne and then, later on, people get upset 'cos Hamilton isn't willing to do something to help Rosberg recoup that time, even though it'll damage his own result?

Seems like some people need a bit of a reality check about what constitutes fairness and Rosberg, for his part, needs to realise he has to put the effort into winning the championship.

Gotta say, though, would have given a lot to be a fly on the wall at the Merc' post-race debrief today.
dazc
27-07-2014
great race today really wanted alonso to win but to finish 2nd was some achievement and well done Lewis hope he wins title
gomezz
27-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Gotta say, though, would have given a lot to be a fly on the wall at the Merc' post-race debrief today. ”

Me too. If I was Nico I would be asking the strategy guys why they had not worked out that it was a bad idea to stay behind Vergne.
Si_Crewe
28-07-2014
Originally Posted by dazc:
“great race today really wanted alonso to win but to finish 2nd was some achievement and well done Lewis hope he wins title”

I know I'm biased but I wanted Hamilton to win just cos' winning from a pit-lane start is something that's never been done before and it looked like he had a great opportunity to achieve it.

Wouldn't be surprised if that (along with the whole "team orders" thing, of course) was why Lewis looked a bit cheesed-off post-race.
Si_Crewe
28-07-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“Me too. If I was Nico I would be asking the strategy guys why they had not worked out that it was a bad idea to stay behind Vergne.”

See, again, I get the impression that the whole Merc' race-strategy department lost the plot a bit today.
It seemed like they just kinda dismissed Hamilton as being "somewhere behind" and left Rosberg to to be "mister cautious" on the basis that he needs to get points in the bag and getting wiped out in the wet would damage his title chances.

And then, after both the safety-cars, it seemed like they just kinda woke up, panicked, and then came up with a plan that'd recover Rosberg's lost time at Hamilton's expense... and then wondered why Hamilton didn't want to cooperate.

*EDIT*

Course, it's easy to say that with hindsight and it wasn't quite so clear during the race but, y'know, that's why they pay these guys the big bucks.
d'@ve
28-07-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“...
And then, after both the safety-cars, it seemed like they just kinda woke up, panicked, and then came up with a plan that'd recover Rosberg's lost time at Hamilton's expense... and then wondered why Hamilton didn't want to cooperate.

*EDIT*

Course, it's easy to say that with hindsight and it wasn't quite so clear during the race but, y'know, that's why they pay these guys the big bucks.”

Exactly - but the teams back in the garage are definitely human, as McLaren proved when they alone thought it would rain, misreading the radar, and kept poor ol' Jenson out there on intermediates - ruining his race in the process!
BinaryDad
28-07-2014
I think the real problem is something that Lewis had pointed out a few races ago; Merc only have one strategy team working for both drivers, who has to balance what the drivers do and also the interests of the team as a whole. The problem with this is that one driver may be asked to sacrifice his race for that to happen, which is just silly.

It seems that Merc are finally realizing the issues with that setup, even though it may have worked out ok at the start of the season.

But on the whole, I was quite impressed with Merc. They slipped up a wee bit in the race, telling Lewis his brakes were just cold when in fact, they'd told him to use the wrong setting on the brake-by-wire system. But getting the car functioning and competitive after the Quali fire was pretty dammed impressive.

Not only that, but actually trusting Lewis on changes to strategy such as him believing the tires were ok. That is something that would never have happened at McLaren, which the drivers having to stick rigidly to what the pit wall told them. It's nice to see Lewis starting to respond to that trust and developing some confidence in his own judgements.
Smiley433
28-07-2014
Why was Hamilton allowed to run Nico off the road at turn 2? He (HAM) was nowhere near the racing line so should have left a car width space to his right. But he deliberately continued on in a "straight" line beyond the apex so that Nico had nowhere to go except the grass.

Isn't that considered to be "forcing a car off the track"?
culttvfan
28-07-2014
Originally Posted by TheToonArmy:
“The fact of the matter is that Rosberg was not close enough for Lewis to let past something all the commentators seemed to agree with.

Any top driver would have done the same today, with the exception of Massa

Mercs have already won the Constructors.

The race is between the drivers, well done lewis”

I also agree. We're talking about 2 guys fighting for the world championship with the constructors and drivers championships virtually wrapped up - this isn't Alonso/Massa or Schumacher/Barrichello, an outright number one with a teammate with little chance of winning the world championship.

Lewis quite rightly couldn't believe he was ordered to let Rosberg pass, and as it turned out Lewis was proved absolutely right. If he had Rosberg would not only have extended his lead in the championship over him but by a big margin as he would probably have won.

I notice Toto Wolff now appears to be suggesting they got things wrong with the order to Hamilton to let Rosberg through.
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