|
||||||||
Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8) |
![]() |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|
#5001 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,981
|
Quote:
The drivers drive for the team. If the team gives them an order, they must obey it. Its as simple as that. You really cant argue with that. Especially when most were dead against Vettel when he obeyed team orders.
Quote:
The driver and his fans may not like the idea, but an order is an order. Like I said, I bet the book was thrown at Hamilton behind closed doors. The consequences of his disobedience will have repercussions.
Given that from his point of view, he was going to lose out and the team as a whole were going to more than likely get the same results, why should he obey? Why should he be negatively impacted while his team mate benefits, especially since it was this sort of result-fixing situation that the team had publicly stated they would not engage in. If Mercedes has been serious about any order, then Paddy or Totto would have been on the radio to tell him that this was not optional. As it was, this was advice from his own race engineer that he is at liberty to ignore should he feel that he knows better. If Merc are going to give him Hamilton a grilling, perhaps he should counter with being put on a differing, inferior strategy to his team mate given that he had two sets of fresh option tires, which would have given him a much better chance at fighting for pole? I thought this differing strategy for both drivers to give one an advantage over the other was something they were going to void? |
|
|
|
|
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
|
|
|
#5002 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Darn Sarf
Posts: 28,728
|
Quote:
![]() There is noway the team can let Lewis get away with disobeying them. It will set a dangerous precedence, if they do. Toto has no choice but to do something about it. By the time Rosberg was in a position to try and overtake for the first time, at the end when Hamilton pushed him wide (but not illegally or off the track), the 'team orders" had long since ceased being given. Hamilton knew that if the team were deadly serious about the earlier "team orders" Toto or Paddy would have got involved, but they never did. And it's not a problem for the future because everyone including Rosberg and Hamilton now knows that if a similar situation happens in reverse, Rosberg won't now have to give up his position. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5003 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
|
Quote:
Oh, please. Your constant victim act is getting tiring. Pretty much all of the German press is slating Hamilton for this. So what? I find it amusing. Who gives a damn about what the press say?
Quote:
The team were asking Hamilton to sacrifice any chance he might have had at catching and passing Alonso, so that his team mate could pass. The problem was, Rosberg wasn't fast enough to catch Hamilton, let alone Alonso so from Hamilton's view, this was an order that only change the Mercedes driver order.
Given that from his point of view, he was going to lose out and the team as a whole were going to more than likely get the same results, why should he obey? Why should he be negatively impacted while his team mate benefits, especially since it was this sort of result-fixing situation that the team had publicly stated they would not engage in. Quote:
If Mercedes has been serious about any order, then Paddy or Totto would have been on the radio to tell him that this was not optional. As it was, this was advice from his own race engineer that he is at liberty to ignore should he feel that he knows better.
How do you know he is at liberty to ignore the race engineers advice? You have just made that up, no proof to back up statement. You also need to look at the wording used by his engineer. At no point did you use words like "its up to you to move over or not" or "if you want to you can move over" etc. Quote:
If Merc are going to give him Hamilton a grilling, perhaps he should counter with being put on a differing, inferior strategy to his team mate given that he had two sets of fresh option tires, which would have given him a much better chance at fighting for pole? I thought this differing strategy for both drivers to give one an advantage over the other was something they were going to void?
Lewis sits down with whoever he needs to and they discuss strategy, before the race. So no doubt they would have a strategy in place. If he isnt happy with the strategy, thats when he says so. They should all leave the meeting happy with the strategy. Which is what more than likely happens. Of course, as is the nature of F1, the strategy is liable to change. As it did with Rosberg. Two drivers from the same team, on different strategy, you let the one behind you through, if for instances he is making an extra stop - you dont hold him up. This has happened this season, its happened in seasons past. However when it comes to Lewis, you seem to think tough, that doesnt apply. Which is fair enough, if thats what you think. However dont start saying I am playing the victim, when I point out the obvious flaw in your logic. I really cant believe people are saying, that a driver is well within his rights to disobey team orders. Its laughable that you even try to put an argument together to justify it. Especially as you take into account the Vettel situation. Out of interest, what did you say when Vettel disobeyed team orders? I could go through the thread and see what you posted, but I cant be asked. I am quite happy to discuss other matters with you (and others), however on this matter I am stopping. I have made my point and position clear. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5004 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
|
Quote:
Anybody want to predict the top 5 drivers at the end of the season? My own guess was based purely on female intuition
. Any experts out there want to give a slightly more educated guess?![]() Hamilton Rosberg Ricciardo Vettel Alonso |
|
|
|
|
|
#5005 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
|
A more interesting point, that no one seems to have mentioned (or I have missed it), is the return of Flavio Briatore into the F1 fold as a *****ultant, sorry I mean consultant.
Cant believe this cheating, slimey **** has been brought back into the F1 fold. A dark cloud follows him wherever he goes. Which is probably why it rained on race day. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5006 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
|
Quote:
A more interesting point, that no one seems to have mentioned (or I have missed it), is the return of Flavio Briatore into the F1 fold as a *****ultant, sorry I mean consultant.
Cant believe this cheating, slimey **** has been brought back into the F1 fold. A dark cloud follows him wherever he goes. Which is probably why it rained on race day. Seriously, he's like any other con' artist. He's found an industry which he knows inside-out and he continually finds ways to exploit it, one way or another. He'll never be completely out of the picture, either as a driver's manager, a supplier, a liaison or a consultant because F1 is what he knows how to exploit. I wonder if, quietly, Bernie would like it to be Briatore who takes over from him? In other news, it's a little ironic that people were dismissing comments suggesting that it was a little "convenient" that no safety-car was deployed after Sutil binned it at the German GP cos' now Rosberg's whining about the way the SC was used in Hungary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5007 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
|
Quote:
Hamilton
Rosberg Ricciardo Vettel Alonso I wouldn't even risk a bet on what order those five finish in though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5008 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,716
|
Quote:
As much as I hate to say it, I think Hamilton will win the WDC. Hope not though
![]() Hamilton Rosberg Ricciardo Vettel Alonso I think that ultimately he is quicker than Nico Rosberg. He needs to keep his mind focused though - Nico is far more stable emotionally in my opinion. I do feel that Red Bull will improve after the summer break. Their track record suggests they will - although ultimately they may be foiled by their relatively poor Renault engine (especially as there are several tracks (eg: Monza, Austin) where engine performance is paramount still to go. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5009 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,716
|
Quote:
Whos playing the victim? Where did that come from??? I am just highlighting the hypocrisy of some posters in this thread. As for the media, you mean in the same way the British press slated Vettel?
If that is what the team wanted, then that is what the team should get. I cant even believe, that you are saying, "why should he obey?" I refer you to the plethora of arguments made by many a poster in this thread, when Vettel didnt obey.... Now you are getting silly. When his race engineer tells him to pit, does that mean his engineer is not serious? Does Paddy or Toto have to come on the radio to tell him that the team are serious, and he does need to pit? Whats the scale of seriousness here? Race Engineer - not serious at all, he is only really joking. Paddy - yep hes fairly serious, but I can ignore him the first time, but not subsequent times . Toto - he is very serious, better listen to him. How do you know he is at liberty to ignore the race engineers advice? You have just made that up, no proof to back up statement. You also need to look at the wording used by his engineer. At no point did you use words like "its up to you to move over or not" or "if you want to you can move over" etc. Perhaps when Lewis counters, Merc should counter with, you can go and drive someone elses car. Our car, out rules. Lewis hasnt got a leg to stand on. Lewis sits down with whoever he needs to and they discuss strategy, before the race. So no doubt they would have a strategy in place. If he isnt happy with the strategy, thats when he says so. They should all leave the meeting happy with the strategy. Which is what more than likely happens. Of course, as is the nature of F1, the strategy is liable to change. As it did with Rosberg. Two drivers from the same team, on different strategy, you let the one behind you through, if for instances he is making an extra stop - you dont hold him up. This has happened this season, its happened in seasons past. However when it comes to Lewis, you seem to think tough, that doesnt apply. Which is fair enough, if thats what you think. However dont start saying I am playing the victim, when I point out the obvious flaw in your logic. I really cant believe people are saying, that a driver is well within his rights to disobey team orders. Its laughable that you even try to put an argument together to justify it. Especially as you take into account the Vettel situation. Out of interest, what did you say when Vettel disobeyed team orders? I could go through the thread and see what you posted, but I cant be asked. I am quite happy to discuss other matters with you (and others), however on this matter I am stopping. I have made my point and position clear. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5010 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
|
If anybody is interested in reviewing it, the palava over Sepang 2013 starts on page 19 of this thread, HERE.
Just been having a read through and, oddly enough, it seems like the majority of the discussion was actually about Rosberg being told to stay behind Hamilton rather than about Vettel. Pleased (in a smug sort of way) to say that my only real criticism was of the slippery way Horner (and, at first, Vettel) tried to square the whole "multi 21" thing with all the rhetoric about how "RBR always let our drivers race" etc. Ironically enough, it seems like one of the people who was most conflicted about it all was ACU (on page 28) who seemed to hold the view that it was okay for Vettel to ignore a team order because it "proves" that RBR allow their drivers to race (while failing to consider why a team who allows their drivers to race would actually have a secret codeword for, erm "don't race") while, at the same time, was critical of Hamilton because, erm, Rosberg obeyed a team order which was, somehow, Hamilton's fault. Or something. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5011 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,981
|
Quote:
Whos playing the victim? Where did that come from??? I am just highlighting the hypocrisy of some posters in this thread. As for the media, you mean in the same way the British press slated Vettel?
Quote:
If that is what the team wanted, then that is what the team should get. I cant even believe, that you are saying, "why should he obey?" I refer you to the plethora of arguments made by many a poster in this thread, when Vettel didnt obey....
Quote:
Now you are getting silly. When his race engineer tells him to pit, does that mean his engineer is not serious? Does Paddy or Toto have to come on the radio to tell him that the team are serious, and he does need to pit? Whats the scale of seriousness here? Race Engineer - not serious at all, he is only really joking. Paddy - yep hes fairly serious, but I can ignore him the first time, but not subsequent times . Toto - he is very serious, better listen to him.
Quote:
How do you know he is at liberty to ignore the race engineers advice? You have just made that up, no proof to back up statement. You also need to look at the wording used by his engineer. At no point did you use words like "its up to you to move over or not" or "if you want to you can move over" etc.
Quote:
Perhaps when Lewis counters, Merc should counter with, you can go and drive someone elses car. Our car, out rules. Lewis hasnt got a leg to stand on.
Quote:
Of course, as is the nature of F1, the strategy is liable to change. As it did with Rosberg.
Quote:
Two drivers from the same team, on different strategy, you let the one behind you through, if for instances he is making an extra stop - you dont hold him up. This has happened this season, its happened in seasons past. However when it comes to Lewis, you seem to think tough, that doesnt apply. Which is fair enough, if thats what you think.
But the situation we had in Hungary is different. Quote:
However dont start saying I am playing the victim, when I point out the obvious flaw in your logic.
Quote:
I really cant believe people are saying, that a driver is well within his rights to disobey team orders. Its laughable that you even try to put an argument together to justify it.
Quote:
Especially as you take into account the Vettel situation. Out of interest, what did you say when Vettel disobeyed team orders? I could go through the thread and see what you posted, but I cant be asked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5012 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
|
Quote:
If anybody is interested in reviewing it, the palava over Sepang 2013 starts on page 19 of this thread, HERE.
Just been having a read through and, oddly enough, it seems like the majority of the discussion was actually about Rosberg being told to stay behind Hamilton rather than about Vettel. Pleased (in a smug sort of way) to say that my only real criticism was of the slippery way Horner (and, at first, Vettel) tried to square the whole "multi 21" thing with all the rhetoric about how "RBR always let our drivers race" etc. Ironically enough, it seems like one of the people who was most conflicted about it all was ACU (on page 28) who seemed to hold the view that it was okay for Vettel to ignore a team order because it "proves" that RBR allow their drivers to race (while failing to consider why a team who allows their drivers to race would actually have a secret codeword for, erm "don't race") while, at the same time, was critical of Hamilton because, erm, Rosberg obeyed a team order which was, somehow, Hamilton's fault. Or something. Quote:
I am a big Vettel fan, but he was wrong for dis-obeying team orders. That is out of order. However there is an easy fix for him, all he has to say is that when they are in the same situation again, he will let Webber pass. If he says that, then its the end of the matter. If he is genuinely sorry, then he will offer to do that. However we wont know as that will be kept behind closed doors, as RBR wont announce it. So will have to see what happens in the future out on track. My first sentence makes it pretty clear, I thought he was wrong. The second paragraph, states that the team orders prove that Vettel did not have No.1 status. Nowhere do I say, it was ok for Vettel to ignore team orders.One thing that this incident proves is that Vettel does not have No.1 status in the team, they are free to race. Which will now hopefully shut a few people up - but I doubt it . RBR allowed the drivers to race, up until the last round of pitstops, if I remember correctly. After that they were meant to hold station. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5013 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Posts: 212
|
Quote:
Yes, I tend to agree that Lewis Hamilton will win the champiionship.
I think that ultimately he is quicker than Nico Rosberg. He needs to keep his mind focused though - Nico is far more stable emotionally in my opinion. I do feel that Red Bull will improve after the summer break. Their track record suggests they will - although ultimately they may be foiled by their relatively poor Renault engine (especially as there are several tracks (eg: Monza, Austin) where engine performance is paramount still to go. I don't know why it reminds me of that
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5014 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
|
Quote:
I think you've pretty much nailed the top five there, without a shadow of a doubt.
I wouldn't even risk a bet on what order those five finish in though. ![]() |
|
|
|
|
|
#5015 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Solihull
Posts: 7,274
|
Bucking the apparent trend, I don't think Lewis will win and I won't be surprised to see Bottas in the top 5.
Rosberg Hamilton Ricciardo Bottas Vettel |
|
|
|
|
|
#5016 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
|
I suppose it could be that Newey does some doodles while he's "on holiday" but, judging by how Vettel tends to do in the 2nd half of the season, I wouldn't be surprised if he puts DR in the shade from now on, thus allowing people to conveniently forget how he embarrassed the 4x World Champion for a while.
Hamilton certainly can win the WDC but I really dunno if this will be his year or not. It ain't easy being a Hamilton fan.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5017 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Netherlands (Z-H)
Posts: 241
|
Quote:
It ain't easy being a Hamilton fan.
![]() Try it, it really works and if you suffer withdrawal symptoms, you can always rely on me to act as deprogramming counselor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5018 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Posts: 2,457
|
Kevin Eason saying Bernie will get the case in Germany settled for £20m payment.
Which means no chance of FOM 100 year deal with FIA being nulled. |
|
|
|
|
#5019 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
|
Quote:
That's true and it makes for some great TV... but he needs to win win win now, and he won't be doing much of that from 10 place grid penalties!
I'm a bit concerned about the following F1 rule on power unit components, if it's still valid: Because if it is still a current rule, and it's on the F1 website, Hamilton may have to take the part of his grid penalty that he couldn't take (because he was already almost at the back anyway) at the next race. I haven't heard that mentioned anywhere, and I don't know if this applies to a pit lane start, so hopefully that's not correct in Hamilton's case this time but does anyone know? |
|
|
|
|
|
#5020 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
|
Quote:
He argues that he did not disobey an order - and he certainly didn't disobey any order from the team principals as they never came on the radio to him and were never mentioned (AFAIK) in his engineer's calls.
By the time Rosberg was in a position to try and overtake for the first time, at the end when Hamilton pushed him wide (but not illegally or off the track), the 'team orders" had long since ceased being given. Hamilton knew that if the team were deadly serious about the earlier "team orders" Toto or Paddy would have got involved, but they never did. And it's not a problem for the future because everyone including Rosberg and Hamilton now knows that if a similar situation happens in reverse, Rosberg won't now have to give up his position. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5021 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
|
Quote:
As much as I hate to say it, I think Hamilton will win the WDC. Hope not though
![]() Hamilton Rosberg Ricciardo Vettel Alonso |
|
|
|
|
|
#5022 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
|
Quote:
Bucking the apparent trend, I don't think Lewis will win and I won't be surprised to see Bottas in the top 5.
Rosberg Hamilton Ricciardo Bottas Vettel On that note, I am ever so happy to see that Claire Williams is taking the team in the right direction, since she has moved out of Frank's shadow, so to speak. The Mercedes partnership was obviously the right move for them, Renault was just getting stale. |
|
|
|
|
|
#5023 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
|
Ten second moan...
Why, oh why do the BBC on their news website splash across the headlines the result of the GP. Some of us out here don't have Sky and would like to watch the highlights on the BBC without knowing the result. It's not the first time they have done it, would it not be possible to have the result still available on the website but through the Sport/ Formula One link? As it is, with the BBC news being my home page, when I open my browser the last thing I want to see is the result... The days of the BBC news being my home page are over... Simples |
|
|
|
|
|
#5024 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Darn Sarf
Posts: 28,728
|
Quote:
Ten second moan...
Why, oh why do the BBC on their news website splash across the headlines the result of the GP. Some of us out here don't have Sky and would like to watch the highlights on the BBC without knowing the result. It's not the first time they have done it, would it not be possible to have the result still available on the website but through the Sport/ Formula One link? As it is, with the BBC news being my home page, when I open my browser the last thing I want to see is the result... The days of the BBC news being my home page are over... Simples And on radio, they should always start the announcement with "Today's F1 race at Anytrack in AnyCountry was won by [Lewis/Nico/Other]" and not what they usually do i.e. "Lewis Hamilton won today's F1 race at..." which is REALLY annoying if I've not watched the race live but am about to watch a recording of it. That would give enough time to mute the radio to avoid hearing the winner's name. The media are sometimes pathetic with such things, when the solution is so simple. Use your brains, BBC, you are often issuing spoilers for your own imminent TV coverage! |
|
|
|
|
|
#5025 |
|
Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
|
Quote:
Ten second moan...
Why, oh why do the BBC on their news website splash across the headlines the result of the GP. Some of us out here don't have Sky and would like to watch the highlights on the BBC without knowing the result. It's not the first time they have done it, would it not be possible to have the result still available on the website but through the Sport/ Formula One link? As it is, with the BBC news being my home page, when I open my browser the last thing I want to see is the result... The days of the BBC news being my home page are over... Simples Bear in mind, the BBC is supplying news to the masses so they splatter a diverse spectrum of stuff across the homepage in the knowledge that most people will just open the home-page and read whatever stories catch their eye (thus generating traffic for the site and justifying it's existence) so a bunch of sports articles saying "There was a footie match/motor race/tennis match today. Click here to read more" probably wouldn't catch people's attention and generate the all-important traffic. |
|
|
|
![]() |
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 19:03.





. Any experts out there want to give a slightly more educated guess?
