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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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d'@ve
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by dansus:
“Dont know why everyone is going on about understeer being a factor for hitting Hamilton, If he had any more understeer, he would have gone off the track, away from Lewis's tyre.”

Supposed understeer correction causing it was raised by the other fella, not me. If you'd read and understood the discussion prior to what you quoted, that should have been clear to you.

Back on topic, Rosberg clearly caused the damage to both cars by taking an unacceptable risk with his teammates car in the opening laps. He has rightly been hammered for that both by much of the media and public, as well as his own team bosses.

Not much can be done about it though and by driving like an impetuous novice, he's probably won himself a nice shiny World Championship trophy. That's not how things should be, at the pinnacle of what is usually a marvellous sport.
Gary_LandyFan
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by D_Peugeot:
“I wonder if Hamilton had won the race, or finished on the podium he'd have been so eager to smear his team mate.”

Probably not, because to be able to do that, he would not have had his race ruined by his team mate clipping his tyre meaning he ended up at the back.

Originally Posted by Fudd:
“I would say the big blow up was at Hungary where Rosberg was told Hamilton would move over and the latter refused to do so. Then the team backed Hamilton over Rosberg despite telling the latter something different during the race itself. Rosberg may have felt then that team orders should not be questioned but Hamilton was being given a free reign to defy orders when he wanted to, therefore elevating him ahead of Rosberg despite the fact that Rosberg was leading the Championship. In his eyes it was no longer even or fair and he would no longer get any support from the team over Hamilton.

Hamilton also commented that he was astonished that Rosberg's bitterness over Hungary still existed now so he must have been stewing on it throughout the break.”

IIRC he didn't refuse to, he just wasn't going to while Nico was so far back, because it would lose him too much time by slowing down enough to let him past.
Had Rosberg cruised up to the back of him he probably would have.

I disagree with Team Orders on the best of days, but ones where they makes one driver lose a chunk of time for the benefit of another annoy me.
Gary_LandyFan
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by rodgepodge:
“Obviously the stewards disagree with you, as do I. For me it was a racing incident, happens time and time again. These people are racing incredibly powerful cars at high speeds, accidents will happen with no deliberate intention.”

It being a Racing Incident doesn't mean that one driver isn't to blame for it.

IMO Nico had enough room to move to the left in order to avoid any contact but he chose not to even though he was already backing out of it.

I don't believe there was any malice in the contact, just a simple misjudgment on Nico's part and he clipped the tyre with his wing accidentally.
gomezz
24-08-2014
And Lewis had the option of taking a wider line round the second part of the chicane knowing Nico was there ... but he didn't.
surfie
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by crake:
“The fact the race stewards didn't even bother to look into it should tell us all something. It was a racing incident and one which many times would have hurt Rosberg more than Lewis.

Lewis it seems doesn't have much luck!”

The reason the stewards did not look into it is because the allegations that Rosberg deliberately hit Hamilton did not come out until the race results had been made official. The FIA though can take retrospective action against Rosberg if need be.
bingoman
24-08-2014
I think the reason why EJ was having ago at Merc team was because the team haven't told the Driver to Behave on & of the track imo
indiana44
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“And Lewis had the option of taking a wider line round the second part of the chicane knowing Nico was there ... but he didn't.”

Yes, other drivers have the option of getting out of the way of drivers making kamikaze manoeuvres, possibly helping them get through.

But especially when it's your teammate you should be able to trust that they will pull out of such manoeuvres.
dansus
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by indiana44:
“Do you think that Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda were "foolish" for being so clearly annoyed at Nico's actions ?

It seems they had this strange idea that putting both Mercedes cars at such risk was unacceptable.
”

No. Its unacceptable to the team because they lost points. Clearly Rosberg found it acceptable.

Originally Posted by d'@ve:
“Rosberg clearly caused the damage to both cars by taking an unacceptable risk with his teammates car in the opening laps. He has rightly been hammered for that both by much of the media and public, as well as his own team bosses.”

Unacceptable to who? You, the team, FIA?

The team are not happy, naturally Lewis is best not pleased, but for Rosberg it was an acceptable risk and to lay down a marker for the future.

This is part of the game, has been done before and will be done again. As ive said before, thats racing.
Gary_LandyFan
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“And Lewis had the option of taking a wider line round the second part of the chicane knowing Nico was there ... but he didn't.”

They hadn't even reached the second part, the line Lewis took gave him more than enough room to avoid a collision, had the collision happened because Hamilton squeezed him to the edge of the track I would blame Lewis, but Nico plenty of room to his left to avoid contact.

http://s28.postimg.org/7dlf4eob1/106...18777654_n.jpg
http://s29.postimg.org/enqk07g3b/Untitled.png
D_Peugeot
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by surfie:
“The reason the stewards did not look into it is because the allegations that Rosberg deliberately hit Hamilton did not come out until the race results had been made official. The FIA though can take retrospective action against Rosberg if need be.”

What?

Stewards will asses incidents during the race itself and determine a resolution. They clearly thought this was a race incident which it was. Hamilton's lies, I doubt will change their view.
dansus
24-08-2014
Originally Posted by Gary_LandyFan:
“They hadn't even reached the second part, the line Lewis took gave him more than enough room to avoid a collision, had the collision happened because Hamilton squeezed him to the edge of the track I would blame Lewis, but Nico plenty of room to his left to avoid contact.”

To be fair, Lewis wouldve been well within his rights to squeeze Rosberg off the track, as we saw with Magnussen on Button and Alonso. Also known as closing the door.
d'@ve
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by dansus:
“Unacceptable to who? You, the team, FIA? ”

Ask Toto, he said it.
Si_Crewe
25-08-2014
Didn't get around to it before but it's kind of ironic the way Hamilton's COLUMN for the BBC makes a big deal about the way there was tension in the team after Hungary but they talked it all through and how one of the things Lewis likes about Merc' is the way they manage their drivers to ensure there's no lingering resentment and hostility.

Guess Rosberg might not have been entirely honest about his feelings or intentions at those meetings, eh?
rodgepodge
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by David Tee:
“"These people" are professional racing drivers, with finely tuned instincts and incredible reaction times. They know only too well what will cause an accident, and how to avoid it - even when they're right on the edge.

For reasons that may, may not, become clear, Rosberg decided to make a point - he chose to persist. It was a conscious decision - to use your words, it was intended and it was deliberate. Given that Hamilton had no reason to give way, once Rosberg had made that decision an accident was always a strong possibility.

I'm sure that Rosberg didn't want to cause an accident - but that's not the point. The decision he took led to the accident.”

I accept the crash was Rosberg's fault, but Hamilton could also have avoided it. I'm simply saying a mistake was made and not a deliberate one. I crashed my motorbike three times many years ago, all my fault but none of them deliberate, they were deliberate acts but not with the intention of crashing, I thought I would stay on the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9hXvw9yMw8
rodgepodge
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by indiana44:
“Why do you think that Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda showed such annoyance and said that it was unacceptable ?

Because, although between different teams' cars it would be looked on as a racing incident, so understandably the stewards viewed it as such, between supposed teammates it was quite unacceptable to put both team cars at such risk.

It's not rocket science here ”

They were annoyed because it was an unnecessary crash which was caused by Rosberg, it was unacceptable but it wasn't done to deliberately cause an accident,

Agreed, it's not rocket science.
rodgepodge
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Gary_LandyFan:
“It being a Racing Incident doesn't mean that one driver isn't to blame for it.

IMO Nico had enough room to move to the left in order to avoid any contact but he chose not to even though he was already backing out of it.

I don't believe there was any malice in the contact, just a simple misjudgment on Nico's part and he clipped the tyre with his wing accidentally.”

Now that I agree with totally. Not once have I said it wasn't Rosberg's fault, he simply made a mistake.
Si_Crewe
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by rodgepodge:
“I accept the crash was Rosberg's fault, but Hamilton could also have avoided it. I'm simply saying a mistake was made and not a deliberate one. I crashed my motorbike three times many years ago, all my fault but none of them deliberate, they were deliberate acts but not with the intention of crashing, I thought I would stay on the road.”

Responsibility isn't a binary thing though.

If you crash your motorbike, perhaps hitting another car in the process, simply because you misjudge a corner that's certainly your mistake but it wouldn't require malice.
If, on the other hand, you got to a roundabout and thought to yourself "F**k it, I'm sick of stopping at roundabouts so I'm just going straight across it regardless of whether there are any other cars around" and it ended up in a crash I'm sure you'd accept that was a different scenario because you'd made the deliberate choice to do something dumb.

Which is kinda what Rosberg did here.

After all, the other cars on our hypothetical roundabout could have taken avoiding action and prevented the crash.

Rosberg may not had deliberately thought "I'm gonna chop Lewis' back wheel" but he did, apparently, think "I'm sick of him pushing me around so I'm not getting out of his way any more" and it seems like he picked a rather poor situation to make that stand by doing it on lap 2, in a corner where there's really no room for 2 cars side-by-side and from a position where he didn't really have any right to claim track position.
Justabloke
25-08-2014
I don't really understand why anyone is defending Rosberg Toto Wolff, Nikki Lauda, pretty much all of the media think he was in the wrong not to mention the majority of people watching (or so it seems)

Still, I guess being a protege of that other German that always felt it was " an acceptable risk" to drive into the only other car/driver that could challenge for the chanpionship, no one should really be surprised.
rodgepodge
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by dansus:
“To be fair, Lewis wouldve been well within his rights to squeeze Rosberg off the track, as we saw with Magnussen on Button and Alonso. Also known as closing the door.”

Magnussen has been penalized for pushing Alonso off the track.
d'@ve
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by rodgepodge:
“Now that I agree with totally. Not once have I said it wasn't Rosberg's fault, he simply made a mistake.”

There was more to it than simply making a mistake. He reportedly did it (refused to back off when he should have done) "to prove a point".

What that point is hasn't been specified as yet, but it looks like an overreaction to the commonly held view in the media and among many F1 fans that Hamilton is a better overtaker and pushes harder when it matters than Rosberg i.e. is a better driver when it's crunch time.

He failed abysmally to make that point, in fact if anything he reinforced the perception, but ironically, by making that rookie mistake on a teammate, he's probably won himself a Driver's Championship. I think that's why people are particularly irritated about it - the irony of the situation. How to win a championship by behaving like a complete tool.
rodgepodge
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Responsibility isn't a binary thing though.

If you crash your motorbike, perhaps hitting another car in the process, simply because you misjudge a corner that's certainly your mistake but it wouldn't require malice.
If, on the other hand, you got to a roundabout and thought to yourself "F**k it, I'm sick of stopping at roundabouts so I'm just going straight across it regardless of whether there are any other cars around" and it ended up in a crash I'm sure you'd accept that was a different scenario because you'd made the deliberate choice to do something dumb.

Which is kinda what Rosberg did here.

After all, the other cars on our hypothetical roundabout could have taken avoiding action and prevented the crash.

Rosberg may not had deliberately thought "I'm gonna chop Lewis' back wheel" but he did, apparently, think "I'm sick of him pushing me around so I'm not getting out of his way any more" and it seems like he picked a rather poor situation to make that stand by doing it on lap 2, in a corner where there's really no room for 2 cars side-by-side and from a position where he didn't really have any right to claim track position.”

I agree it was Rosberg's fault but Hamilton could also have avoided the crash, I think this video shows just how tiny the mistake was. Off to bed now, may come back later today, but it's obvious there are two sides here and never the twain shall meet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9hXvw9yMw8
dodrade
25-08-2014
Formula one drivers make premier league footballers look like paragons of sportsmanship. Sabotaging teammates, defying orders and a win at all costs mentality is surely damaging the sports standing.
Si_Crewe
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by rodgepodge:
“...but it's obvious there are two sides here and never the twain shall meet ”

Oh, I dunno. It's seems like there's already a broad consensus.

You're always going to get nutters at the extremes who either claim that Rosberg deliberately tried to chop Hamilton's tyre or that it was Hamilton's fault 'cos he should've got out of Niko's way but it seems like the truth is that Rosberg did make a deliberate choice not to yield but he just picked a pretty daft place and situation to make his stand.

Probably shouldn't say this, as a Hamilton fan, but if I was a betting man I would've put money on it being Lewis who first indulged in hard-headed stuff like this, probably while invoking the memory of Senna at Suzuka and quoting stuff about how "When there's a gap you've go to go for it or you're not a racing driver" etc.

Wonder how Keke feels about his lad's behaviour?
indiana44
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by dodrade:
“Formula one drivers make premier league footballers look like paragons of sportsmanship. Sabotaging teammates, defying orders and a win at all costs mentality is surely damaging the sports standing.”

I actually doubt that very much, it's more great theatre in what could have been a fairly boring season with Mercedes so dominant.

I and others think Rosberg very much in the wrong here, irrespective of how deliberate or otherwise his actions. But there are a range of stridently held views and drama and controversy and publicity.

Having perceived goodies and baddies and intrigue doesn't necessarily damage a sport at all. And all being paragons of sportsmanship can in certain circumstances be dull.

Similarly, I would not like the Premier League to just contain the wholly virtuous. Welcome back, Mario
dansus
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by rodgepodge:
“Magnussen has been penalized for pushing Alonso off the track.”

That was for the move down the straight.
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