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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Forza Ferrari
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Gary_LandyFan:
“That rule applies to the lead up to a corner and on a straight, it doesn't apply as it is worded during a corner or on exit.

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.


So none of these rules apply to this accident, and this is the reason why Magnussen was allowed to continue to run people out on the exit of turn 10 throughout the race.”

No it does applie at all over times the first stipulation on when a driver may use the whole width of the track is on a straight before the braking. This stipulation does not limit the scope of this regulation or to what part of the track it applies to.

The regulation is infact explicitly in play in braking areas and corners as the area drivers may use the whole width of the track is on a straight before a braking area. So you may never use the full width of the track to defend in a braking area or a courner.

I would think the courner exit forms part of the courner. So you cannot again use the full width of the track until you are on the next straight. I suppose however short that straight may be. And only then if there is no significant part of the car along side this being defind as any part of the front wing along side the rear wheel.

The regulation defines among other things when a defending driver may use all of the track to defend it is not a regulation about what you can do on straights.
Forza Ferrari
25-08-2014
Why Magnussen was no doubt ok in turn 10 is that he was not deviating from his normal racing line and so not actually defending.
Si_Crewe
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Why Magnussen was no doubt ok in turn 10 is that he was not deviating from his normal racing line and so not actually defending.”

Que?
Forza Ferrari
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Either your lousy English or your prejudice is preventing you from understanding the rule.

It's one or the other, for sure. ”

No I am not. A driver may use the full width of the track to defend as defined in this regulation. The circumstances are defined as being on the straight being before the braking area the car attempting to pass having no significant part alongside.

So you can't use the full width of the track to defend in a braking area or in courner. The regulation doesn't say that you can't use the full width of the track in a corner as it dosen't need to because it is defined that you can use the full width of the track to defend when on the straight and before the braking area.

Tacking your racing line through the courner is entirely different as you are no deviating to make a defensive move.
Forza Ferrari
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Que? ”

Magnussen did not deviate from his racing line. No defensive move made so he dosen't have to leave a cars width for somebody trying to go outside the racing line.

A driver dosen't have to make space by moving off line thats jumping out the way. But they must leave space when defending.

This is what is defined by the regualtion but that is different from being sensible and leaving extra space so you don't have a collision.
soulboy77
25-08-2014
Lewis was on the racing lane going round the corner. The only debate should be whether Rosberg's collision was deliberately or not.
gomezz
25-08-2014
If Lewis *had* been on the normal "racing" line he would not have had Nico trying to go round the outside of him.
jonner101
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Well that's the end of their friendship. The blame lies with Rosberg, he could hardly expect Hamilton being in front to not take the racing line and he could have avoided the collision. It looks like he was trying to make a point and the bottom line is it worked, he's the one with the points in the bag and the boos by the crowd show what they thought of it.

Well done to Ricciardo who is definitely the new find of the season and Vettel looks the no. 2 driver there.”

I look forward to seeing him when he is in a properly competitive car, but I think this shows how much the Red Bull car Vettel had before flattered his talent.

Apart from all the drama, F1 is rapidly going downhill in general popularity.

All the OTT technology and complex rules are putting people off. I think we need to simplify things so the driver actually has to concentrate on driving a car as fast as they can. I don't care for all this fuel and engine management nonsense.
Si_Crewe
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“If Lewis *had* been on the normal "racing" line he would not have had Nico trying to go round the outside of him.”

To be fair, obviously Hamilton's racing line was compromised because Rosberg was down the outside of him at the entry.

The thing is, though, that it's pointless to put your car there because there's nowhere to go when you actually get into Les Combes.
You either need to go around the outside and get it done before the corner or you need to follow the lead car into LC, cut back and pass as you exit Malmedy.

I guess it isn't really important but it just seems like the entry into LC was a bit of a silly place (and lap 2 of a 44 lap race is a silly time, as well) for Rosberg to suddenly decide he wasn't going to yield to Hamilton any more.
jmclaugh
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“If Lewis *had* been on the normal "racing" line he would not have had Nico trying to go round the outside of him.”

Hamilton was in front and was entitled to take the line he did through the corner and Rosberg had plenty of run-off area to avoid him. The only way Rosberg could have overtaken Hamilton at that corner from the position he was in was if Hamilton had just given up the place.
Forza Ferrari
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by soulboy77:
“Lewis was on the racing lane going round the corner. The only debate should be whether Rosberg's collision was deliberately or not.”

Well I think the short answer to that is no but here is my assessment of what happend including what people said afterwards.

Rosberg gets a run on Lewis and starts a move round the outside. Hamilton knows Rosberg his team mate is trying a pass round the out side but it is a we bit optomistic. Rosberg can prob see that he is not going to make it but he is angry with Hamilton. Rosberg decides to stay in the move to prove a point and to find out what Hamilton will do.

Rosberg decides not to lift off and to try an stay along side through the exit. Hamilton decides to take his normal line through the courner. Hamilton knows his team mate is out there and likely to loose ground anyway but he won't give Rosberg any extra room because he is angry with Rosberg.

There is minor contact due to both drivers not giving an inch. Nicco gets a broken front wing Hamilton gets a punture.

It is a standard racing incident no wrong done and no penalties applied. Rosberg and Hamilton argue in the debrief both not listening to our understanding each other. Hamilton makes comments to the press about Rosberg which aren't really correct. He is stiring things up. He is to blame for all this silly hooha.

On the track both drivers could have helped their own cause. Taking a tighter line would have been smart for Hamilton as it would have kept him out of trouble and Rosberg would still not have got past. Rosberg's move is rash but history has showen him he can't do a different race as hamilton won't obey team orders so he has to make a pass.

Both men left the outcome to chance and fortune has favoured Rosberg.

The boo boys are all idiots.
jmclaugh
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by jonner101:
“I think we need to simplify things so the driver actually has to concentrate on driving a car as fast as they can. I don't care for all this fuel and engine management nonsense.”

Me neither, it is called motor racing for a reason.

Coulthard even suggested yesterday, when commentating on the race, that the rear wings on the fastest cars should be handicapped to reduce the gap in performance to slower cars.
Forza Ferrari
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Hamilton was in front and was entitled to take the line he did through the corner and Rosberg had plenty of run-off area to avoid him. The only way Rosberg could have overtaken Hamilton at that corner from the position he was in was if Hamilton had just given up the place.”

Agreed Hamilton is entitled to take his line but he should not expect Rosberg to take to the run off. The run off there makes you loose a lot of time and the red bulls are close.

Mercedes want a 1 - 2 so don't put your team mate in the run off.
jmclaugh
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Well I think the short answer to that is no but here is my assessment of what happend including what people said afterwards.

Rosberg gets a run on Lewis and starts a move round the outside. Hamilton knows Rosberg his team mate is trying a pass round the out side but it is a we bit optomistic. Rosberg can prob see that he is not going to make it but he is angry with Hamilton. Rosberg decides to stay in the move to prove a point and to find out what Hamilton will do.

Rosberg decides not to lift off and to try an stay along side through the exit. Hamilton decides to take his normal line through the courner. Hamilton knows his team mate is out there and likely to loose ground anyway but he won't give Rosberg any extra room because he is angry with Rosberg.

There is minor contact due to both drivers not giving an inch. Nicco gets a broken front wing Hamilton gets a punture.

It is a standard racing incident no wrong done and no penalties applied. Rosberg and Hamilton argue in the debrief both not listening to our understanding each other. Hamilton makes comments to the press about Rosberg which aren't really correct. He is stiring things up. He is to blame for all this silly hooha.

On the track both drivers could have helped their own cause. Taking a tighter line would have been smart for Hamilton as it would have kept him out of trouble and Rosberg would still not have got past. Rosberg's move is rash but history has showen him he can't do a different race as hamilton won't obey team orders so he has to make a pass.

Both men left the outcome to chance and fortune has favoured Rosberg.

The boo boys are all idiots.”

Two things come to mind, firstly the collison was Rosberg's fault and secondly any racing driver worth his salt who is fighting for the WDC will never just let his main rival past just because the team ask him to. Rosberg it seems isn't very good at overtaking Hamilton without some assistance.
gomezz
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Hamilton was in front and was entitled to take the line he did through the”

Indeed he was and he choose to take the slower defensive line into the corner. He was vulnerable to attack all the way up to LC and the job was not done just because he got to the first part of the corner first. He remained vulnerable all the way through the corner and chose to defend it one way when some, including me, think he would have been better to defend another way and still stay in front.
mattlamb
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Me neither, it is called motor racing for a reason.

Coulthard even suggested yesterday, when commentating on the race, that the rear wings on the fastest cars should be handicapped to reduce the gap in performance of slower cars.”

I doubt that the Lotus or the Caterham have good chassis; though (they are also slow in a straight line).
mattlamb
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by jonner101:
“I look forward to seeing him when he is in a properly competitive car, but I think this shows how much the Red Bull car Vettel had before flattered his talent.

Apart from all the drama, F1 is rapidly going downhill in general popularity.

All the OTT technology and complex rules are putting people off. I think we need to simplify things so the driver actually has to concentrate on driving a car as fast as they can. I don't care for all this fuel and engine management nonsense.”

It was a good race yesterday though.
Even if Mercedes had had no issues, there would still have been great racing slightly lower down the order.

I think the racing has been very good in general this season. Mercedes have been too dominant of course, but I think Red Bull are catching up (they are traditionally strong at the end of the season, Mercedes aren't too).
jmclaugh
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Agreed Hamilton is entitled to take his line but he should not expect Rosberg to take to the run off. The run off there makes you loose a lot of time and the red bulls are close.

Mercedes want a 1 - 2 so don't put your team mate in the run off.”

That makes no sense at all in terms of what was Hamilton supposed to do, plus Mercedes have said Rosberg was in the wrong.
jmclaugh
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by mattlamb:
“I doubt that the Lotus or the Caterham have good chassis; though (they are also slow in a straight line).”

I'm sure Coulthard was thinking of the likes of RBR, Ferrari and Williams. Funnily enough he never mentioned it when RBR were winning most race weekends over 4 years.
Nessun Dorma
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by ustarion:
“Rosberg is a disgusting cheat.”

As much as I am a fan of Lewis, I very much doubt that Rosberg cheated. It wasn't as calculated as the Schumacher/Hill crash back in '94 at Melbourne, where there was only one possible outcome. It would have been too risky for Rosberg's championship hopes if it went the other way.
mattlamb
25-08-2014
Nico Rosberg made a mistake.
I don't think he hit Lewis Hamilton deliberately.
It cost Lewis Hamiton more. That happens sometimes.

Mercedes should be applauded for having let their drivers race each other for most of the season. They didn't handle this incident well at all.

I think that is the crux of all this.Let;s move on......


You should have seen the Ginettas support car race to the Touring Cars at Knockhill yesterday. What Nico Rosberg did was nothing compared to two of the drivers after that race had finished. They literally tried to run each other off the track. That was 100 times worse.
Nessun Dorma
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Puterkid:
“The bit of Hamilton's tyre stuck to Rosberg's car, seems a bit Karmic? I sincerely hope he doesn't finish the race, no way should he have attempted that move on Hamilton, he knew what he was doing”

I really don't think he did. It was extremely poor judgement and showed a temperament that is not suitable for a Grand Prix driver. As for deserving not to finish; I wouldn't have cheered very loudly at that result, it would have affected the team far more than if just Lewis hadn't scored any points.
mattlamb
25-08-2014
Why are people so melodramatic?


Nico Rosberg has been racing Formula 1 cars for many years. He is not renowned as being a driver that has lots of incidents (a la Maldonado) and is quite capable of driving Formula 1 cars quickly and generally fairly.

Come on let's move on......
Si_Crewe
25-08-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Rosberg can prob see that he is not going to make it but he is angry with Hamilton. Rosberg decides to stay in the move to prove a point and to find out what Hamilton will do.”

Interesting point there...

Seems like the big issue has become that Rosberg has announced that he's had enough of getting out of Hamilton's way and that he deliberately didn't yield etc.

Funny thing is, unless my memory is playing tricks on me, Rosberg was pretty-much alongside Hamilton at the end of the straight, dropped back behind him as they went through LC and (to me, at least) it looked like he was in the process of trying to drop behind Hamilton and switch-back inside him when he caught his front wing on Hamilton's rear wheel.

Just occurs to me; I wonder if Rosberg is deliberately making all these noises about refusing to yield because he thinks that's less embarrassing than admitting that he just misjudged the switch-back manoeuvre?
gomezz
25-08-2014
That seems to fit all the facts for me.
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