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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Si_Crewe
17-09-2014
Originally Posted by gomezz:
“On the fuel economy thing: MotoGP bikes have been running ECUs that automatically lean off the mix automatically to avoid running dry for several years.”

Well, yeah.

That's related to what I was saying earlier too, though.

If teams know this stuff is going to happen they can implement systems to mitigate the problems.

IIRC, the ECU a standardised, homologated, unit produced by McLaren. With reasonable notice (i.e. prior to the start of a season) I'm sure they could programme it to do something similar but, as things were at the start of this season, there'd be no call for it as the teams would probably prefer to have a race-engineer do the calculations manually and advise the driver accordingly.

Also, it's kind of ironic that this is being done in order to force the drivers to take control of more things for themselves when, in reality, it's actually likely to have the opposite effect by forcing teams to create automated systems which remove the burden of controlling stuff from the driver entirely.

Which takes me back to my original point; if all they're worried about is making the drivers look like puppets, why not just ask FOM to stop broadcasting those kind of messages?
bystander
18-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“..............Also, it's kind of ironic that this is being done in order to force the drivers to take control of more things for themselves when, in reality, it's actually likely to have the opposite effect by forcing teams to create automated systems which remove the burden of controlling stuff from the driver entirely............”

How will they create automated systems for:-

1. When a faster car is stuck behind a slower one and the driver asks "what shall I do?".
2. When for example Hamilton is lapping faster than Rosberg and Rosberg asks "Where is Hamilton gaining the time?".
bystander
18-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“As a big fan of Williams, I hate to say it but I still want to see how they do next year before I buy into all the "Williams are back at the top" hype.

With all the new rules, this year started off as a bit of an "unknown" for everybody and it's still possible that Williams just found a "sweet spot" in the car's performance envelope, in much the same way that Lotus did with the fragile tyres a couple of years ago.

Next year, when all the teams have the benefit of using this year's cars as a benchmark, I have a horrible feeling that (budgets permitting) RBR is going to be back in a big way and Lotus and FI are likely to be up there with Williams as well.
Bear in mind that, even if they can't fix this year's car, Renault are already probably cobbling together an engine that copies the Merc' design as closely as possible so it's likely that all the Renault powered teams are going to take a step forward next year.
Maybe a bit pessimistic but, this time next year, I can see Williams being back in their "regular" slot, just ahead of Caterham, Marussia and Sauber and fighting with Torro Rosso, FI and Lotus to be the team that trails McLaren. ”

See, you can talk good sense as well.
Si_Crewe
18-09-2014
Originally Posted by bystander:
“How will they create automated systems for:-

1. When a faster car is stuck behind a slower one and the driver asks "what shall I do?".
2. When for example Hamilton is lapping faster than Rosberg and Rosberg asks "Where is Hamilton gaining the time?".”

Oh, yeah. I certainly agree that "coaching" is kinda pathetic. I just don't think that simply telling teams not to do it is going to work.

And then, by implementing this under rule 20.1, they're creating a situation where drivers are being forced to drive the most complex cars ever and getting no assistance for stuff where, realistically, they do need it.

At the very least, the dash display systems need modifying so that they'll alert drivers to things that're outside normal parameters and have some kind of "SHTF" setting that a driver can fall back on until they can figure out how to deal with stuff properly.

Also, let's face it, I doubt any driver is fully conversant with all the stuff they can do with every knob on the wheel.
If a driver gets a warning to say, for example, that his gearbox is overheating, is he might well decide to minimise his gear-changes but is he really supposed to know that he might be able to resolve it by using a different engine torque map, a different differential setting, different ERS usage or brake bias settings as well?

There's a couple of good articles (such as THIS one) about it all on the BBC website.
It's kinda funny the way Bernie is quoted as saying "The drivers all think it's a good idea" and then you've got a bunch of guys such as Massa, Button and Kimi quoted as saying they don't think it's a good idea at all.

And then there's Horner (IIRC) pointing out that all the guys in the garage aren't there for a holiday so expecting the driver to deal with all the stuff that they currently earn a living by doing is kinda silly.

It's also dubious the way Bernie is claiming he organised this.
I mean, if it's him that thinks it's wrong that people see the drivers as puppets, surely he could have resolved it simply by ensuring that FOM don't broadcast those messages?
Si_Crewe
19-09-2014
Vettel's last engine of the year seems to have carked-it at the end of FP1, which'll mean that any further engine changes this year (including if this one needs changing) will give him a grid-penalty.

*EDIT*

Oh, and Kimi's front brakes caught fire and seem to have damaged his front suspension.
soulboy77
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Vettel's last engine of the year seems to have carked-it at the end of FP1, which'll mean that any further engine changes this year (including if this one needs changing) will give him a grid-penalty...”

I bet Renault are popular in the Red Bull garage!
Si_Crewe
19-09-2014
I see Maldonado has made his mark at yet another race.

Another mark in the armco, that is.

Wonder if his Lotus is fitted with magnetic wheels or summat?
Si_Crewe
19-09-2014
Too late to edit.....

Suppose it's worth mentioning that the FIA have decided to have a major RETHINK about the radio nonsense.

Far be it from me to say "I told you so" but, y'know....
ACU
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Too late to edit.....

Suppose it's worth mentioning that the FIA have decided to have a major RETHINK about the radio nonsense.

Far be it from me to say "I told you so" but, y'know.... ”

They have had a rethink, hardly call it major. There are still plenty of things that are still banned.
Si_Crewe
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by ACU:
“They have had a rethink, hardly call it major. There are still plenty of things that are still banned.”

There's a pretty big difference between the original rule, which banned advice about engine, fuel, gear selection, brakes etc and what we've got now.

Gotta admit, though, that it's pretty cringe-worthy that a lot of the stuff in the new version specifically refers to banning anything related to comparing one driver to another.
Obviously, a team can't compare any of that stuff with any driver in another team so they're clearly talking about comparisons between team-mates and, more specifically, almost certainly about the stuff Merc's been doing.

I always thought that all this "Lewis is using a higher gear through turn 3" and "Nico is braking less in turn 7" stuff was a bit dodgy.
Ever the optimist, I assume Merc' were only doing it in an attempt to create a culture of complete openness within the team, so that neither driver had any "secrets", but it did always seem a little unfair that neither driver could keep any advantage to himself.

The idea of invoking rule 20.1 and expecting the drivers to handle everything for themselves was daft though.
ACU
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“There's a pretty big difference between the original rule, which banned advice about engine, fuel, gear selection, brakes etc and what we've got now.

Gotta admit, though, that it's pretty cringe-worthy that a lot of the stuff in the new version specifically refers to banning anything related to comparing one driver to another.
Obviously, a team can't compare any of that stuff with any driver in another team so they're clearly talking about comparisons between team-mates and, more specifically, almost certainly about the stuff Merc's been doing.

I always thought that all this "Lewis is using a higher gear through turn 3" and "Nico is braking less in turn 7" stuff was a bit dodgy.
Ever the optimist, I assume Merc' were only doing it in an attempt to create a culture of complete openness within the team, so that neither driver had any "secrets", but it did always seem a little unfair that neither driver could keep any advantage to himself.

The idea of invoking rule 20.1 and expecting the drivers to handle everything for themselves was daft though.”

There is still a long list of things that are still banned. It was always going to be the case, where the rule was to be tweaked here and there.

I wouldnt be surprised if it dropped all together at the end of the season, much like the double points maybe dropped for next season. Its one of those things, thats sounds like a great when you think about it, but once you say it out loud it sounds quite silly.
Si_Crewe
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by ACU:
“I wouldnt be surprised if it dropped all together at the end of the season, much like the double points maybe dropped for next season. Its one of those things, thats sounds like a great when you think about it, but once you say it out loud it sounds quite silly.”

Reminds me, I heard something during the FP sessions about Bernie not being happy about the double-points any more and that he might even attempt to get is stopped for this year.

Gotta say, I'm not at all keen on moving the goal-posts mid-season unless there's a safety issue.

Still, could be worse.
At least there isn't a phone-vote to decide who gets to use DRS.
Forza Ferrari
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by soulboy77:
“I bet Renault are popular in the Red Bull garage!”

You know the interesting thing about that is that no none Mercedes works team has won a GP with the Mercedes engine this year.

No other Mercedes engined team is going to get optimal engine and chassis intergration. I doubt they get quite the best MguH and Mguk advice either. So far I think it has shown.

Should Red Bull be so unhappy with an engine that has won them races.
Forza Ferrari
19-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Well, I know the rules say the wing has to be rigid but I guess if Williams have found a way to make the individual elements flex in a useful manner, good luck to them, I suppose.”

Sky were fully acknowledging it today. Red Bull and Mclaren using cameras to measure and make the wing flex on purpose but it is now thought its fine as long as it passes the load test.

Its fine to say if it passes the rule then it passes the rule but contrast that with what used to happen. Ron Dennis and Patrick Head would be moaning about super slow moe replays and before you know it new tests were dreamed up to keep them happy.

Still it was better than things are today. Now all people get annoyed about is the white line, what gets said on the radio and in the case of complete plonkers can we contrive it that Nico was littering.
Forza Ferrari
20-09-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Reminds me, I heard something during the FP sessions about Bernie not being happy about the double-points any more and that he might even attempt to get is stopped for this year.

Gotta say, I'm not at all keen on moving the goal-posts mid-season unless there's a safety issue.

Still, could be worse.
At least there isn't a phone-vote to decide who gets to use DRS. ”

The double points rule has back fired with the dominant Mercedes year. Nicco and Hamilton have the same goal to stay within touching distance of the other then win the double points GP.

It has created a one race championship and made the rest of the GPs pointless. Possible predictable if people had thought about it.
Si_Crewe
20-09-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“You know the interesting thing about that is that no none Mercedes works team has won a GP with the Mercedes engine this year.

No other Mercedes engined team is going to get optimal engine and chassis intergration. I doubt they get quite the best MguH and Mguk advice either. So far I think it has shown.

Should Red Bull be so unhappy with an engine that has won them races.”

Blimey, that's a bit tenuous, even for you.

You're suggesting that it's some kind of dastardly conspiracy that a factory team is doing better than it's customers?

Remind me, again, how are Marussia and Sauber doing with their Ferrari customer engines?

Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Its fine to say if it passes the rule then it passes the rule but contrast that with what used to happen. Ron Dennis and Patrick Head would be moaning about super slow moe replays and before you know it new tests were dreamed up to keep them happy.”

It's Ferrari's own fault that they built a front wing so bendy that it was giving off sparks as it scraped along the ground which could be seen from the ISS.
If you're going to try and exploit the rules, at least try and use some finesse, as Williams seem to be doing.
Forza Ferrari
20-09-2014
The Ferrari engine isn't the best we all know that. Customer teams will always have less good integration. Less good engine and none ideal integration is the worst combination. I could be wrong but I thought the engine power map was Mercedes best by someway then Ferrari and Renault worst.

Red bull are benefiting from being the defacto Renault works team so have the best Renault engine integration. Still that being the case I am surprised that when the Mercedes works team have slipped up no Mercedes customer team have been able to snatch a win.

if the season ends with Red Bull the only team to win a race other than Mercedes then they will take it as some conselation and some of it will be down to them having a Renault engine that isn't the best but fits well and is optimised to their car.

I was not reffering to the Ferrari wing which fluttered but the ones which one eight championships despite people moaning about what they did over the kerbs and a team principle having to be warned of disrepute charge a few years before his own team gets disqualified for cheating.
Si_Crewe
20-09-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“The Ferrari engine isn't the best we all know that. Customer teams will always have less good integration. Less good engine and none ideal integration is the worst combination. I could be wrong but I thought the engine power map was Mercedes best by someway then Ferrari and Renault worst.

Red bull are benefiting from being the defacto Renault works team so have the best Renault engine integration. Still that being the case I am surprised that when the Mercedes works team have slipped up no Mercedes customer team have been able to snatch a win.

if the season ends with Red Bull the only team to win a race other than Mercedes then they will take it as some conselation and some of it will be down to them having a Renault engine that isn't the best but fits well and is optimised to their car.”

Not really sure what point you're attempting to make TBH.

If Renault engines fall apart sooner than any other type then they're clearly inferior, as you seem to acknowledge.

If RBR have won races through the year despite having an inferior engine, good luck to them. It would seem to suggest that the chassis and the drivers (or one of them, in particular) are flattering a weak engine.

Not really sure why any of that warrants any particular mention of Mercedes or their engines though.
It's not like Caterham, Toro Rosso or Lotus are as likely to win as RBR and it's certainly not like Marussia or Sauber have the same chance as Ferrari.
TheToonArmy
20-09-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“The Ferrari engine isn't the best we all know that. Customer teams will always have less good integration. Less good engine and none ideal integration is the worst combination. I could be wrong but I thought the engine power map was Mercedes best by someway then Ferrari and Renault worst.

Red bull are benefiting from being the defacto Renault works team so have the best Renault engine integration. Still that being the case I am surprised that when the Mercedes works team have slipped up no Mercedes customer team have been able to snatch a win.

if the season ends with Red Bull the only team to win a race other than Mercedes then they will take it as some conselation and some of it will be down to them having a Renault engine that isn't the best but fits well and is optimised to their car.

I was not reffering to the Ferrari wing which fluttered but the ones which one eight championships despite people moaning about what they did over the kerbs and a team principle having to be warned of disrepute charge a few years before his own team gets disqualified for cheating.”

What you are trying to say is that, Ferrari are SHI*E, simple, 5 Letters, could have saved a lot typing if you had only typed SHI*E, we would have understood we really would have.........There are really SHI*E , even with that cheater Alonso, especially at Singapore
Forza Ferrari
20-09-2014
I don't think you are helping. But thanks for trying your best.
coopermanyorks
20-09-2014
Does Johnny Herbert look unwell to anyone else ?
TheToonArmy
20-09-2014
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“I don't think you are helping. But thanks for trying your best.”

, from a person who posts bile almost all the time
Si_Crewe
20-09-2014
"Woo woo! P1 Great lap.... DAMN IT!!!!!"



Starting to feel the pressure after all, Nico?

*EDIT*

While I'm at it, There was a clear breach of the radio-rules from Kobayashi's engineers during FP3.
Be interesting to see if he's penalised, what sort of penalty can be applied that'll be equally punitive to somebody in 20th place as somebody who's at the front of the grid and whether they'll bother at all or whether the penalties will end up being applied reactively, upon receipt of a protest.
TVScourge
20-09-2014
I'm calling it now. Actually I called it since the Italian Grand Prix. Lewis Hamilton is going to win the championship. There's not a single doubt about it. That one little incident in Belgium has screwed up Rosberg big time.

Even before since Monaco qualifying has made Rosbery universally hated, even more than Schumacher.
Si_Crewe
20-09-2014
Alonso smiling through gritted teeth while talking about starting in 5th place. Again.

Vettel starting to seem more mature in his interviews now. More relaxed about not being top of the pile any more. Good on him.
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