Staying dominant as Brawn - team? Or like McLaren, Lotus, Ferrari, you name it.
And to answer to you question, NO.

Great to get another Lewis win. He looked a very happy man. Maybe his apparent recent decision to start managing his own career is suiting him.

That is all Tom Sykes needed to do in WSB yesterday and look what happened to him!

Plenty of action behind the front two. With plenty of action. Quite enjoyed this race, a rare thing this year.

Surprised by that comment, as Vettel did well with a car that was just handling like a shopping cart with a broken wheel. From the in car shots, you could see how much he was struggling controlling the car, and was constantly hacksawing at the steering wheel around corners. I thought considering how badly his car was handling, he ran a very good race.

Not known Hamilton to "add" anything to a car. Certainly not in the same league as Alonso. Hamilton in that Ferrari, at best would be doing what Kimi is doing. Think you are blinded by your Hamilton tinited glasses there.

Ricciardo ran another excellent race, the handling of these cars is certainly suiting his style. I think the younger drivers like Bottas, Magnusen and Ricciardo are great drivers...the sport, is in good hands once some of the older drivers retire. As long as F1 is around in a few years time.

As expected, as long as the Mercs finish, they will be occupying the top two steps. Is there anyone on the grid, that couldnt finish at least second in that car? Certainly any of the drivers in the top 14 of the drivers championship could. Having said that, you still have to drive it and and beat your team mate. Cant remember the last time a driver won the title without having the best car on the grid? Probably Schumis first title with Ferrari

2007 seems to suggest otherwise.

Not if you knew what was going on behind the scenes it doesnt. The team was behind Lewis, Alonso was essentially the 2nd driver.

Another point 2007, what about the 7 years since? If the reason you come up with, as to why my statement is wrong is 7 years old, what does that tell you?

Are you really saying that Lewis can get the same out of a car as Alonso? I think that is one fact that even the most ardent of Lewis fans would agree with.

S'funny, I was going to say the exact same thing about Vettel.

He's certainly competent but I'd bet that, if he's at Ferrari with Kimi, they'll be finishing closer together than we're seeing with Alonso.

Yesterday was a good example of a race where, with a bit of clever strategy, a truly great driver might have managed something reasonable but all Vettel seemed to do was go around at the back of the field, 2 seconds a lap slower than his team-mate, for the majority of the race.

Was kinda funny the way, after the race, the team made the excuse that Vettel had been driving strategically to preserve his tyres even though, during the race, we heard Vettel on the radio complaining about the lack of pace and saying he didn't understand why the car was so awful.

Personally, I think Hamilton has a special gift for driving a car faster than it deserves to be driven but, historically at least, he also has a habit of trying too hard and screwing up whereas Alonso's gift seems to be to be that he pushes hard enough to elevate the car's performance and bring it home most of the time.
In a similarly poor car, this year Vettel has shown himself to be neither spectacular or dependable.

Kind of interesting to think about that a bit more though...
If the Merc' wasn't quite as mighty as it is, I wonder how things would have turned out?
If the Merc' drivers were being forced to push to achieve success, I suspect we'd be seeing a situation similar to 2011, whereby we'd probably be seeing Hamilton getting the car further up the field than Rosberg but, OTOH, Rosberg might be ahead in the championship because Lewis might have screwed up more often.


Hate to say it but I'd say the last time that happened was probably 2007 although I'd say Kimi was gifted his WDC by the in-fighting at McLaren, rather than because of anything Kimi or Ferrari actually did for themselves.

And, of course, that in-fighting was between Hamilton and Alonso, and it was Lewis that came out ahead. Just.

And I suppose you know all about the "behind the scenes" bs, do you? That you have some suer insider knowledge or are you, as per usual, spouting crap?

BTW...2009 is probably a good indicator of what Lewis "adds" to a car, as well as 2012 when ultra-smooth Button was finishing behind his teammate who had started at the back of the grid, as well as being lapped in Canada by said team mate. When the Mclaren was at its weakest that season, it was Lewis keeping tabs with the RBR and Ferrari.

In much the same way that you recommend others taking off their pro-Hamilton glasses, I'd suggest you take off your Hamilton-hate glasses. If there's one driver who would be a match for Alonso, it'd be Hamilton.

2008 - The Mclaren was pretty much the second best car compared to the Ferrari's at the majority of tracks. It had better mechanical grip, but its aero was pretty hopeless which meant for most races, it lacked pace, unless you had a driver who didn't need a perfectly handling car. Y'know...like Hamilton.

I think most people, Including Fernando Alonso, would say that Hamilton can get more out of a car than any other driver out there.

In fact, erm, he did say that exact thing, going on to say that he thought his real talent was consistency more than raw speed in an interview he did in 2011.

Which is fair enough and, if I'm honest, I think he's being a bit modest there.
If F1 drivers were Top-Trumps cards, I suspect Hamilton would have 100 for speed and, maybe, 65 for reliability whereas Alonso would have 95 for speed but 90 for reliability.
Not sure how the others would stack up but I'd bet those would be the two best cards in the deck.

Yep, there's no doubt in my mind Alonso and Hamilton are the 2 best pure racers currently operating. Other drivers are very solid but all things being equal I think Lewis/Fernando would come out on top against any of them in a fair fight.

Its a travesty if Lewis does not win the championship.

I guess this is the sort of comment that I might regret making but, given the current points, it'll now take a big screw-up (either mechanical failure or driver error) to stop Lewis winning the WDC.

So, if we get a similar situation to Spa or Bahrain, Hamilton has the luxury of knowing he doesn't actually need to pass Rosberg. All he needs to do is come home right behind him.

See the Lewis fans are out in force again. How dare I say anything negative about him.

I wont reply to each post individually. However will cover the main comments here.

Si - I never said Vettel was a great driver. He is a very good driver. Certainly not as rubbish as some on here think. Yes he had the best car on the grid, so did his team mate. Yet Vettel blew him away. What I will say about Vettel, is that RB suited him to a T. I dont think there is any driver on the grid that could have drive that car better than him, none. I dont think he is the best driver on the grid, but he certainly isnt rubbish.

Si & BinaryDad - yep Lewis came out ahead when he Alonso were in the same team. Hardly surprising when the full weight of the team was thrown behind Lewis. It was virtually impossible for Alonso to beat him. As for the 'behind the scene' stuff, that was in the public domain. You can google for it if you wish BinaryDad. There was no way Ron was not going to back his boy. Absolutely none. This year he doesnt seem to be 'adding' much either...its not like hes blown his team mate away is it. Before you come out with the reliability issues, they have bother suffered from them. Rosberg has also had some mysterious substance found in his car, that took him out of the race. Sabotage? People on here would certainly being saying so if it had happened to Lewis. Funnily enough, not much was said about it on here at the time.

BiinaryDad - no surprise you opt for 2008, as the last time a driver won the WDC without the best car. Which isnt true, even Si, acknowledges that, naming Kimi 2007. As for when Lewis and Button were in the same team. No need to pick out single races, thats a pointless task. Look at the two season that they were team mates. Button finished ahead of Lewis, and Lewis finished ahead of Button once. Take the points from both seasons and add them together, and Button comes out on top. So its fair to say that Button finished ahead of Lewis over the course of the two seasons they were teammates. Not much 'adding' done by Lewis there is there. There you go again, as soon as I say something negative about him, you say I am a hater. Like I said to you last time change the record, its getting f'ing tiresome and very very childish. I am not a hater, I dont like him and I dont support him. A massive difference btween hate and not liking someone. I take it, that is allowed? Or maybe not...

F1 is about opinions, please allow those that dont support Lewis, to express theres. If you cant stand to read negatives comment, start your own thread using "We love Lewis" as a title. Trust me, I wont come near it.

Come on ACU, you're just as guilty of constantly bashing him. Some of the stuff you've come out with this season, it's obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder towards him.

Sure, some of his fans might get a bit defensive about him. But I'd say you were much farther along the respective spectrum of Hamilton love/hate than his fans on here.

Equal chances, equal machinery. Alonso played the victim card so much that season that Ron even asked for an FIA inspector to come along and ensure that Alonso was being treated fairly. It's amusing how you dismiss conspiracy theories on one hand and are so ready to buy into one that suites your own prejudices.

There's no evidence of McLaren holding Alonso back or nobbling his chances.


I don't know...I'd say that winning more than twice as many races than your team mate is pretty dammed good. All you're showing is how little the points system rewards a win these days. And then you're forgetting the two races where Hamilton suffered mechanical failures in quali and had to start from the back - one of those races he managed to finish ahead of Rosberg after a complete car rebuild in case you had forgotten.


Si has his opinion, I have mine. I can point out to you why I think the MP4-23 was in most races, not as good as the Ferrari. But can you point out the opposite without resorting to the band wagon logical fallacy?

What has 2007 got to do with 2008 at any rate?



Is it? Why? Doesn't it show specific cases where a driver has been able to overcome obstacles that his team mate was unable to? Maybe when you start explaining your assertions in a bit more detail, you might start making actual sense.


I see the game that you're playing here. You're trying to hide the details in some made up statistic that has no relevance. You're trying to explain a sequence of events over the course of multiple seasons with two simple numbers. You're actually using circular reasoning here - by using a statistic to explain the reason for the statistic in the first place.

Statistics is a tool used for identifying trends. Nothing more. If you're using it for more than that, then you're doing it wrong and quite frankly, justifying some rather derogatory things my mathematics lecturers used to say about statistics in general.


You're allowed to voice you opinion. Just like people are allowed to call you out for what they see as incorrect arguments. After all...you seem to be happy with painting people who disagree with you as merely being "Hamilton fans" or having "Hamilton-glasses" on. But oh, how dare anybody do the same to you!

If you can't deal with having these accusations leveled at you, please refrain from the ad homien arguments that you so frequently make.

True I have a go at him, but then for BinaryDad to reply by calling me a hater, every single time is ridiculous.

Not sure about the chip, I dont support Man U, does that mean I have a chip on my shoulder towards Man U? I dont support Liverpool, does that mean I have a chip on my shoulder towards them? If so I have a lot of chips on my shoulder (as does everybody else) as I dont support every team/person thats participates in a sporting event.

Yes because the points awarded during the course of a season is a meaningless stat. How dare they decide a championship winner using these points. The stupidity of the idea.

Straw man argument. I'm not saying the points system is wrong. I'm saying that the points system 1) doesn't tell the whole story and 2) you'd have to be some sort of brain dead badger to think that a simple statistic somehow validates itself. Stats show trends, not causes.

The championship is decided over a single season. Not multiple seasons. And even then, points don't tell you as to why somebody has those points or why the standings have turned out the way that they have. You're purposefully removing context from the debate because it's slightly inconvenient to your own arguments.

Well here's a revelation for you. Just because you say or type something, doesn't make it true. It also doesn't protect you from criticism. It doesn't mean that people cannot disagree with you.

It DOES mean that when you complain about people using ad homien attacks in response to your own, you end up looking a bit pathetic. But by all means, carry on playing the victim card in some vein attempt a shutting down criticism against you and your arguments.

Anyhow...personal battles aside; am I the only person who feels that Vergne's penalty was a bit harsh? I thought the pass was ok...a bit rough, but nothing all that bad.

Of course I removed context, as its the only thing no-one can argue with. I thought it was the only thing we would agree with, but you cant even agree with the point system. At the end of the day. it was 1-1 between Lewis and Button. So I fail to see where he 'adds' value.

Funnily enough you say I cant take criticism, yet when I speak out against Lewis, you call me a hater...very mature of you. Cant you stand hearing criticism about Lewis?

I am saying dont criticise me? How did you figure that out Einstein? On your own or do you have a team back there helping you? Funny its only you I have an issue with, others have a go at me for my views on Lewis, but I dont tell them to change the record. Ever thought about why?

Obviously, our personal battle is spoiling the thread. Lets agree to ignore each others post going forward. If you want to continue, you can pm me.

There is a big difference between not being a fan/not supporting something and having a chip on your shoulder towards someone/something. I'm afraid you've always come across as the latter in this thread.

Regardless of whether you agree or not, it's how I've perceived your posts in this thread over time tbh.

How dare you criticise me!! The sheer cheek of some posters.

OK, fair enough Roger...All I would say, is that if you support Lewis then you are more likely to think my posts are having a go at him. If you arent a supporter, then you probably wont see my posts in the same light. It all depends on which side of the fence you sit on.

Never really understood where that comes from TBH.

For it to be true would require that McLaren willingly chose to spunk millions of quid up the wall by hiring Alonso with the knowledge that they always intended for him to defer to a rookie.

Seems far more likely that they just did what they're doing, erm, right now - putting a rookie in with a driver who's a known quantity to see how they stack up against each other.


You'd have to be pretty obtuse to think that.

Lewis has 9 wins to Rosberg's 4 with 3 of those being in races where Hamilton either had a DNF or had problems in quali'... and the other one being Monaco.

And then there's the fact that Rosberg has yet to come out ahead of Hamilton in a wheel-to-wheel race. Even once.

Course, Rosberg is, himself, probably one of the best drivers out there. He seems to have a very wise head, he knows that consistency wins championships rather than spectacle and we shouldn't forget that he's the guy who made Schuey look very ordinary for a couple of years.

While we're on the subject of hypothetical comparisons, I wonder how Vettel would fare against Rosberg in the same car?
I can't help thinking it'd have resulted in, erm, pretty much the same way that things turned out this year; with Vettel coming in second and deciding to move teams.

Wonder if that might turn out to be a habit for Vettel when he gets embarrassed by a team-mate?

*EDIT*


Just to pick up on that...

It was 2 - 1 to Lewis, not the other way around.

2011 probably was a bit of an education for Hamilton; teaching him that it's sometimes better to settle for points rather than try to compensate for a 2nd-rate car by pushing further and further until you screw up.

Not really.

If anything, I'd say he was bloody lucky to wallop Grosjean like that without causing damage to either car.
It's not like it was a "good" move that just went awry due to circumstances beyond his control.
He went in way too deep, locked up his brakes and the only reason he didn't fall off the side of the track was because he punted Grosjean off the track instead, costing him 2 places.