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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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anyonefortennis
24-11-2014
Eddie Jordan got a pie in the face from a couple of guys on the Mercedes team. I think they were trying to pull his wig off as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30171196
indiana44
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Erm, you know that the "equipment suppliers" are competing too, right?

Seemed ridiculous, to me, that people were whining that Andy Murray should get a knighthood for winning Wimbledon.
That's kinda like saying Hamilton should be knighted for winning the Brit GP.

I can't think of any arena other than motor-racing where participants compete in a global series all year with only one possible overall trophy at the end of it all.
That commitment, IMO, is more than any athlete in any other arena makes and that, when you win it, is unquestionably worthy of SPOTY IMO.

Besides, there's been no major running, jumping, throwing things or kicking a ball about this year, has there? ”

Not saying Andy Murray should have a knighthood ( not yet anyway ) , but some strange comparisons there.

Winning the British GP, yes the home one, but one of 19 during the year is not on the same level as winning Wimbledon, one of the four major Grand Slam events in the year.

Quite apart from there being one tennis, an intensely global competitive sport and various forms of motor racing, though yes most would say F1 is the peak.

And F1 is so far from unique in sports in having a year round global championship with one possible winner of that. One could construct a fair list of world champions decided that way. Yes, that is the obvious big award in F1 but having earlier brought in individual GP wins, you are then trying to have your cake and eat it in suggesting that is all there is to F1.

Lewis Hamilton's achievements stand to be seen, he has proved the F1 driver of the year and I intend to vote for him in SPOTY. I love F1 and have great admiration for Lewis.

No need for such strange attempts to rubbish Andy Murray in comparison.
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by steelbock:
“Silverstone is just one race. At Wimbledon you have to win a succession of matches to claim the title, all against performers with wonderful equipment.
Also Novak Djokovic won the end-of-season title recently following a year long battle. You have to get in the top 8 to qualify by performing through the whole year.”

A succession of matches?

You mean over a fortnight. And then you get on a plane, go elsewhere and have another go at winning a different tournament, of which any "end-of-season title" is simply yet another one.

Worlds apart from a sport like F1, where there's one single championship which lasts all year.
If anything, it's more like the Premiership, except, of course, that that's only a national thing rather than a global one.

Originally Posted by indiana44:
“And F1 is so far from unique in sports in having a year round global championship with one possible winner of that. One could construct a fair list of world champions decided that way.”

It's a little odd that you'd make a statement like that but then not actually offer even a single example.

Must say, I didn't mean to belittle Murray's achievements but I just think it's a bit odd the way there seemed to be so much adulation for somebody who won one particular event and yet there doesn't seem to be as much enthusiasm about giving a guy who's won a world championship as much, or more, recognition.
iDirtyPenguin
24-11-2014
As much as I'm happy for LH for winning the title, I'm a keen F1 fan and have supported LH since he entered the sport for his aggressive driving style.

Had he taken his 3rd title to match J. Stewart then maybe yeah, a knighthood.

Hope he goes on to break more records next season onwards. One question however, I wonder who destroyed who last night, Nicole S or LH lol.
indiana44
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“It's a little odd that you'd make a statement like that but then not actually offer even a single example.

Must say, I didn't mean to belittle Murray's achievements but I just think it's a bit odd the way there seemed to be so much adulation for somebody who won one particular event and yet there doesn't seem to be as much enthusiasm about giving a guy who's won a world championship as much, or more, recognition.”

Let's see....World championships involving a global series of events :

Alpine Skiing ( individual events and overall combined )
Triathlon
Surfing

I suspect quite a number more that do have some kind of series world champion, but where that is not the main prize in that sport. As has been said, the World Tour Finals being a culmination of such in tennis.

Now, I can just see you ready to say Triathlon, Surfing - no comparison. But that's a big point, you can't really just say that a world champion in one sport deserves at least as much honour and / or respect as the same or even less in another sport. A lot is to do with how we individually regard different sports and what is involved.
steelbock
24-11-2014
I think we could debate between sports endlessly. I would just like one question answered regarding F1. How can Hamilton suddenly become so much better than Vettel if it is not mainly about the equipment used? Has Vettel suddenly become a poorer driver or Hamilton a better one?
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by indiana44:
“Let's see....World championships involving a global series of events :

Alpine Skiing ( individual events and overall combined )
Triathlon
Surfing

I suspect quite a number more that do have some kind of series world champion, but where that is not the main prize in that sport. As has been said, the World Tour Finals being a culmination of such in tennis.

Now, I can just see you ready to say Triathlon, Surfing - no comparison. But that's a big point, you can't really just say that a world champion in one sport deserves at least as much honour and / or respect as the same or even less in another sport. A lot is to do with how we individually regard different sports and what is involved.”

See, I'm not sure I even need to try and suggest that there's no comparison between F1 and surfing or triathlon, and nor would I care to.
Simple fact is that you can be a triathlete or a surfer and win something without it being the only thing you compete in all year so you haven't really managed to provide a proper equivalent.

As I say, I just think that an F1 driver who has competed in a single series for an entire year, and won it, certainly deserves to be SPOTY.
steelbock
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“See, I'm not sure I even need to try and suggest that there's no comparison between F1 and surfing or triathlon, and nor would I care to.
Simple fact is that you can be a triathlete or a surfer and win something without it being the only thing you compete in all year so you haven't really managed to provide a proper equivalent.

As I say, I just think that an F1 driver who has competed in a single series for an entire year, and won it, certainly deserves to be SPOTY.”

The British public obviously disagree. There have been F1 champions in the past who have not won SPOTY. He deserves to be in the running not to necessarily win it.
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by steelbock:
“I think we could debate between sports endlessly. I would just like one question answered regarding F1. How can Hamilton suddenly become so much better than Vettel if it is not mainly about the equipment used? Has Vettel suddenly become a poorer driver or Hamilton a better one?”

Hamilton hasn't "suddenly become so much better" and nor has Vettel become worse.

Simple fact is that different drivers have differing styles which suit different cars better.

If you put all the drivers in identical Caterhams, for example, you might find that Alonso and Hamilton were easily top of the tree because they're drivers who can flatter a poor car.
If, OTOH, you put all the drivers in a Merc' you might find that there's little to choose between Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen and Rosberg.

Over the last few years, Vettel obviously had a car underneath him which suited his style and he was able to make the most of it.
This year the cars have been a bit "wilder" and it's obviously not suiting him as much.

FWIW, I wonder if 2014 might have been a good year to start with a new team?
I mean, the cars were vastly different and, if you were with the same team that you were with in 2013, you might find yourself climbing into the 2014 car, thinking "Blimey! WTF is going on here?" whereas, if you were joining a new team, you'd have no preconceptions about how it "should" feel.

Going back to Hamilton, he joined Merc' in 2013 and spent most of the year saying "It's okay but it's not like my McLaren was" because clearly, even though the cars change year on year, they had an evolutionary feel to them.
This year all the drivers probably felt like they were racing in an entirely different series so the ones who stayed with the same teams probably found themselves struggling with reconciling what they have with what they used to have as well as struggling to get along with a new car.

On that basis, I guess Hamilton kinda lucked-out because he had 2013 to forget about how his McLaren felt and then, when the new cars came along for 2014, he wasn't that unbalanced by the way they are, whereas guys like Vettel and Alonso would be, basically, where Hamilton was in 2013.
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by steelbock:
“The British public obviously disagree. There have been F1 champions in the past who have not won SPOTY. He deserves to be in the running not to necessarily win it.”

And what's that supposed to prove?

All it suggests, to me, is that the achievement isn't as well recognised as it should be.
indiana44
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“And what's that supposed to prove?

All it suggests, to me, is that the achievement isn't as well recognised as it should be.”

It is also a lot to do with the quality of the British sporting year and the opposition that year.

Who "should be" most recognised as I indicated before is generally a varied view based on our individual views of different sports and the prizes within them.

I realise this is an F1 thread so I wouldn't come out as anti F1 and / or anti Lewis even if I was. I'm certainly not anyway, and I will vote for Lewis for SPOTY.

As for Andy Murray, by the way, in my personal view his year last year stands at least with Lewis this year. I am neither clearly right nor wrong as with anyone that thinks differently for whatever variety of reasons. If say it was clear each year, we might as well not have a SPOTY vote. You can make judgements but not particularly objective comparisons between different sports and their world champions or whatever.
indiana44
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“See, I'm not sure I even need to try and suggest that there's no comparison between F1 and surfing or triathlon, and nor would I care to.
Simple fact is that you can be a triathlete or a surfer and win something without it being the only thing you compete in all year so you haven't really managed to provide a proper equivalent.

As I say, I just think that an F1 driver who has competed in a single series for an entire year, and won it, certainly deserves to be SPOTY.”

Ah, I missed this one...

I'm totally failing to see the logic of the fact that the F1 world championship is the only thing that really matters in F1 ( and in a non Olympic year the triathlon world series is similar ) proving anything other than that Lewis makes his case ( which some might still argue ) for being the best in F1.

How that specifically elevates the F1 world champion above other great achievers in other sports with different structures defeats me.
Justin Aerial
24-11-2014
I`d have a lot more time for Lewis Hamilton if he weren`t a tax avoiding scumbag. Was it only me who felt uncomfortable seeing him waving the Union Jack when he`s not prepared to pay his taxes to support this country. Supposedly the one he feels so patriotic about......
indiana44
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“I`d have a lot more time for Lewis Hamilton if he weren`t a tax avoiding scumbag. Was it only me who felt uncomfortable seeing him waving the Union Jack when he`s not prepared to pay his taxes to support this country. Supposedly the one he feels so patriotic about......”

I am sure all of us in a similar position would be keen to pay as much tax as we could
Assa2
24-11-2014
Mattiacci gone, Mr "GoodArrival" arrives. Now to see if the rumours about Brawn are true...
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by indiana44:
“Ah, I missed this one...

I'm totally failing to see the logic of the fact that the F1 world championship is the only thing that really matters in F1 ( and in a non Olympic year the triathlon world series is similar ) proving anything other than that Lewis makes his case ( which some might still argue ) for being the best in F1.

How that specifically elevates the F1 world champion above other great achievers in other sports with different structures defeats me.”

Well, clearly everybody's entitled to their own opinion.
I happen to think that winning at something that's taken all year to achieve is pretty-much the most worthy achievement that anybody can achieve in sport.

Also, you still haven't offered an example of anything outside of motorsport where competitors do apply themselves to the same thing all through the year.

FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if there are other disciplines where this is the case.
It's just that, as I thought about it, I genuinely can't think of another sport where people just compete in one single, international, "tournament" all through the year.
Assa2
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“I`d have a lot more time for Lewis Hamilton if he weren`t a tax avoiding scumbag. Was it only me who felt uncomfortable seeing him waving the Union Jack when he`s not prepared to pay his taxes to support this country. Supposedly the one he feels so patriotic about......”

He is out of the country for a great deal of time, so I for one have no issue with him relocating. He's hardly alone in F1, past or present. I'd rather that than some under-hand tax avoidance or evasion scheme.
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“I`d have a lot more time for Lewis Hamilton if he weren`t a tax avoiding scumbag. Was it only me who felt uncomfortable seeing him waving the Union Jack when he`s not prepared to pay his taxes to support this country. Supposedly the one he feels so patriotic about......”

Probably just you.

Don't hate the player. Hate the game, as they say.
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“He is out of the country for a great deal of time, so I for one have no issue with him relocating. He's hardly alone in F1, past or present. I'd rather that than some under-hand tax avoidance or evasion scheme.”

Well, that's the thing innit?

I mean, if you're, say, a premiership player and you claim to "live" in Monaco and only "visit" the UK for, erm, 28 days each month then you're probably taking the piss.

Guys in F1, however, probably only spend a few weeks each year in the UK anyway so why not live wherever takes your fancy (and all the better if it's also a tax haven) during your time off?
anyonefortennis
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Justin Aerial:
“I`d have a lot more time for Lewis Hamilton if he weren`t a tax avoiding scumbag. Was it only me who felt uncomfortable seeing him waving the Union Jack when he`s not prepared to pay his taxes to support this country. Supposedly the one he feels so patriotic about......”

And McIlroy isn't? On top of dumping his fiance by text shortly after she had sent out the wedding invitations.
Si_Crewe
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Mattiacci gone, Mr "GoodArrival" arrives. Now to see if the rumours about Brawn are true...”

EJ was saying that yesterday.

Wonder what'll happen to Mattiacci?
I still wouldn't be surprised if they only ever stuck him in charge of the F1 team to give him a bit of "pizazz" before offering him a higher-up job at Ferrari.

All seems to be kinda like what happens in football with Ferrari at the moment; team does poorly so the manager gets sacked as if that'll fix the problem.
Assa2
24-11-2014
So what's really going on at Mclaren?

Ron Dennis & Eric Boullier both got quite irate with Sky over the weekend. TBH I did find Sky's extreme pro-Button agenda a bit tiresome even if I do share the frustration and general disappointment that JB is likely being shown the door.

Dennis was adamant that no-one has been signed yet. He also said there are 4 drivers they are looking at, the assumption being the 4th is Vandoorne.

My assumption is that with Alonso coming in they want a clear No1 / No2 situation and the No2 has to bring as much money in as possible. I also wonder if Alonso is putting pressure on Dennis not to keep Button in case he proves to be Alonso's match or worse. Boullier clearly has big issues with Button and I think the feeling is mutual there.

What I do find odd is that Button is clearly still a very quick driver who has this season driven the Mclaren at times beyond it's expected limits - usually taken as the sign of a great driver. I imagine he'd be flexible over his contract and I also assume he'd be Honda's pick given his history with the team and importantly his extremely high profile (along with his missus) in Japan.

The cons seem to be that Button is old(er), costs too much, might be too much of a match for Alonso and has some sort of an issue with the team racing director.

TBH I won't be surprised to see Mclaren announce Alonso & Vandoorne because I don't think Magnussen has shown enough his season.
Assa2
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“EJ was saying that yesterday.

Wonder what'll happen to Mattiacci?
I still wouldn't be surprised if they only ever stuck him in charge of the F1 team to give him a bit of "pizazz" before offering him a higher-up job at Ferrari.

All seems to be kinda like what happens in football with Ferrari at the moment; team does poorly so the manager gets sacked as if that'll fix the problem.”

I think this was actually the plan all along. Mattiacci was brought in to do a quick hatchet job on the old team organisation and bring in new people & working methods. He was never a long-term appointment. Now they've got the team organised properly they've got the right man in to manage the team logistically & financially - Arrivabene, but they need someone else to actually take the team racing (Eric Boulier to Ron Dennis). The only reason I wonder about Brawn is he left Mercedes precisely because of too many 'chiefs'. Why would he have changed his mind?
indiana44
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Well, clearly everybody's entitled to their own opinion.
I happen to think that winning at something that's taken all year to achieve is pretty-much the most worthy achievement that anybody can achieve in sport.

Also, you still haven't offered an example of anything outside of motorsport where competitors do apply themselves to the same thing all through the year.

FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if there are other disciplines where this is the case.
It's just that, as I thought about it, I genuinely can't think of another sport where people just compete in one single, international, "tournament" all through the year.”

If I find out that the world tiddlywinks champion is decided in a similar way, I'll let you know
steelbock
24-11-2014
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Hamilton hasn't "suddenly become so much better" and nor has Vettel become worse.

Simple fact is that different drivers have differing styles which suit different cars better.

If you put all the drivers in identical Caterhams, for example, you might find that Alonso and Hamilton were easily top of the tree because they're drivers who can flatter a poor car.
If, OTOH, you put all the drivers in a Merc' you might find that there's little to choose between Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen and Rosberg.

Over the last few years, Vettel obviously had a car underneath him which suited his style and he was able to make the most of it.
This year the cars have been a bit "wilder" and it's obviously not suiting him as much.

FWIW, I wonder if 2014 might have been a good year to start with a new team?
I mean, the cars were vastly different and, if you were with the same team that you were with in 2013, you might find yourself climbing into the 2014 car, thinking "Blimey! WTF is going on here?" whereas, if you were joining a new team, you'd have no preconceptions about how it "should" feel.

Going back to Hamilton, he joined Merc' in 2013 and spent most of the year saying "It's okay but it's not like my McLaren was" because clearly, even though the cars change year on year, they had an evolutionary feel to them.
This year all the drivers probably felt like they were racing in an entirely different series so the ones who stayed with the same teams probably found themselves struggling with reconciling what they have with what they used to have as well as struggling to get along with a new car.

On that basis, I guess Hamilton kinda lucked-out because he had 2013 to forget about how his McLaren felt and then, when the new cars came along for 2014, he wasn't that unbalanced by the way they are, whereas guys like Vettel and Alonso would be, basically, where Hamilton was in 2013.”

I can see your point that certain drivers can suit certain cars. It doesn't really explain why the 2 top drivers were from the same team this year as is often the case.
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