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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Si_Crewe
20-05-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“In any case, would the cars going flat out change anything? You'd end up with the fastest cars qualifying at the front and disappearing in the race. F1 was at it's pinnacle in terms of raw speed about 10 years ago IIRC and I don't recall the racing being much better.”

Depends what you mean by "pinnacle" I think.

10 years ago we were right in the middle of the Schuey era and I doubt many people were terribly excited by F1.
It was also an era where there was little in the way of aero' regulation and the cars generated much more downforce and aero' wake.

Personally, I reckon you'd have to go back to the late 1980's or early 1990s to find a car that didn't really create aero' problems for following cars.
Even then, there was no guarantee that the racing was going to be close because there was usually a McLaren or a Williams that was faster than anything else but at least, in those days, two fairly evenly-matched cars could run close together if the opportunity arose.

As I've said before, I reckon what they need to do is get cars such as Senna's McLaren, Mansell's Williams or Schuey's Benetton, chuck 'em in a wind tunnel and find a way of quantifying the amount of turbulence they create and then try to come up with a rule that limits the turbulence of modern cars to similar levels.
vaslav37
20-05-2015
Going off topic for a moment.

The Australian, French and US Opens all have Kids Days but Wimbledon does not- why is this?
skinj
20-05-2015
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“As I've said before, I reckon what they need to do is get cars such as Senna's McLaren, Mansell's Williams or Schuey's Benetton, chuck 'em in a wind tunnel and find a way of quantifying the amount of turbulence they create and then try to come up with a rule that limits the turbulence of modern cars to similar levels.”

They don't even need to go that far, they just need to use computer modelling to get an almost accurate dirty air simulation. Watched Guy Martins "Speed" on channel 4 the other day (the one where he broke the cycling speed record) and they used computer modelling to create a bubble behind the pace truck to allow him to slip-stream and not be battered by eddys (eddies?) and cross winds. This was just for a cycling speed challenge, not a multi-billion pound industry & sport.
afcbfan
21-05-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“In any case, would the cars going flat out change anything? You'd end up with the fastest cars qualifying at the front and disappearing in the race.”

Exactly! F1's problem in a nutshell! There seems to be all sorts of measures to spice up F1 being considered by the powers-that-be at the moment Well, giving the fastest competitors in a race a head start does not an interesting spectacle make, and when someone realises that that's when F1 becomes awesome again. If Hamilton and Rosberg are leading the Championship then Rosberg and Hamilton should make up the back row of the grid.
Si_Crewe
21-05-2015
Originally Posted by afcbfan:
“Exactly! F1's problem in a nutshell! There seems to be all sorts of measures to spice up F1 being considered by the powers-that-be at the moment Well, giving the fastest competitors in a race a head start does not an interesting spectacle make, and when someone realises that that's when F1 becomes awesome again. If Hamilton and Rosberg are leading the Championship then Rosberg and Hamilton should make up the back row of the grid.”

Bit hypocritical to moan about contrived methods to "spice up" F1 and then suggest that the championship leaders should start from the back of the grid.

The first signs of the current problems arose in about 2007 (?), when the FIA decided to reduce peak RPM from 22,000 to 18,000 and, thus, all the engine manufacturers found themselves with engines that were now operating well within their design specifications and were unlikely to be unreliable.

Since then, almost every rule change has created a similar problem.

They make the tyres more fragile and the drivers go slower to preserve them. This, in turn, means there's less load on brakes, transmission, drivetrain and suspension and, of course, deters the driver from attempting any marginal overtaking for fear of damaging the tyres.

The tyres, themselves, scatter marbles of rubber all over the track which, again, deters drivers from attempting to overtake unless it's an absolute certainty because the track surface is likely to be unpredictable.

Similar thing with fuel management; the need to regulate fuel usage means less mechanical stress on the cars and less psychological stress on the drivers.


Rather than replacing one lot of fake, contrived, regulations with a different lot, I'd rather just see the cars and drivers racing as hard as possible for 2 hours with the expectation that mechanical failures and driver errors will provide the excitement.

And, if a car proves to be reliable, and a driver is infallible, they deserve to win.
Forza Ferrari
21-05-2015
Well not take away all the trick start systems. Two part clutches and bit point learn systems they are basically lauch control systems.

Speaking of starts once Mercedes have a front row lock out I hope it isn't still cold on Sunday if Mercedes screw everybody with a slow out lap again it could cause chaos.
idlewilde
21-05-2015
So the glitz and glamour of the Monaco Grand Procession rolls around again. Fifty, sixty years ago when they raced those little tin pot racing cars around the narrow streets, I'm sure it was all very exciting. Sticking 200mph+ cars around that circuit however with zero overtaking opportunities and it becomes the world's most expensive motoring parade.
afcbfan
22-05-2015
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Bit hypocritical to moan about contrived methods to "spice up" F1 and then suggest that the championship leaders should start from the back of the grid.”

Who's moaning? Not me.

Quote:
“Rather than replacing one lot of fake, contrived, regulations with a different lot, I'd rather just see the cars and drivers racing as hard as possible for 2 hours with the expectation that mechanical failures and driver errors will provide the excitement.”

You'll still have the same old problem: In a race, putting the fastest competitors at the front and the slowest at the back kills the spectacle.
Scuderia92
22-05-2015
Really hope Ferrari are more competitive this weekend compared to Barcelona
dansus
22-05-2015
Originally Posted by afcbfan:
“
You'll still have the same old problem: In a race, putting the fastest competitors at the front and the slowest at the back kills the spectacle.”

Depends what you regard as a spectacle. For some the art of excellence is engaging and entertaining.
Si_Crewe
23-05-2015
Originally Posted by afcbfan:
“You'll still have the same old problem: In a race, putting the fastest competitors at the front and the slowest at the back kills the spectacle.”

Personally, I think the spectacle of seeing a bunch of teams and drivers perform in accordance with their abilities is much more appealing that a random "show" generated by artificial meddling.

Reverse-grids work okay in stuff like WSB, where it's pretty easy for one rider to overtake another but, in F1, while they've still got all the other issues that makes overtaking unrealistically difficult, I'd rather that cars were simply on track in a position commensurate with their ability.

I see that the drivers are getting involved in some scheme to find out if fans have got any ideas for how to improve F1.
It's not exactly an idea for a change but the one thing I would advocate is that they DON'T screw around with quali'.
The current system means that we get to see the cars on track a lot and it does a reasonable job of getting rid of the dead wood so the fastest cars get a fairly clear run.
About the only thing I'd want to see changed is more tyres for those getting through to Q2 and Q3 (and, perhaps, extra tyres for FP sessions too).


In other news, I see Hamilton has been saying how he'd like to have a "perfect" Monaco weekend, which he doesn't reckon he's ever had before.
Kinda reminds me of how Graham Hill (IIRC) used to say he enjoyed it when it rained.
The reality was that he was shitting bricks when it rained (just like everybody else) but he thought it was a good way to psych'-out the opposition by telling them he liked the rain.
I kinda think Hamilton's a bit like that with Monaco.
He makes all the right noises, telling people how he loves the circuit and enjoys the challenge, but I reckon it's simply not a track he goes well at and he needs to stop telling himself all the nonsense and take a proper look at his weak points and see if he can sort them out.

Funny how Monaco and Spa are both iconic circuits (for different reasons) and they're both circuits that most drivers claim to "love" but Hamilton doesn't seem particularly comfortable with either of them.
Mark F
23-05-2015
Disappointing for Williams - outside the top 10.

Looks like Hamilton has the edge so far.
Si_Crewe
23-05-2015
Williams definitely seeming more like a long-circuit "missile" and struggling to heat the tyres in Monaco.
Be interesting to see how they do at other, similar, tracks this season.
Still, I guess it's better to have a car that performs well at the majority of circuits.

Nice to see Hamilton do well at Monaco.
I really do think that he's previously been a bit too "wild" and Monaco punishes mistakes very harshly.
Seems like Hamilton is really starting to learn to restrain himself just very slightly when necessary.

Hopefully, it'll be a proper race tomorrow and not the tyre-endurance spectacle that we've seen over the last couple of years.
anyonefortennis
23-05-2015
First ever pole for Lewis in Monaco. That is a surprise.
Forza Ferrari
23-05-2015
Must be on for one of the most boring races of the dullest year ever tomorrow.

Rosberg should do the world a favour and shunt Hamilton in to the Sainte Devote run off at the start. The two Mercedes can disapear and the rest of us can get a race.
Scuderia92
23-05-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Must be on for one of the most boring races of the dullest year ever tomorrow.

Rosberg should do the world a favour and shunt Hamilton in to the Sainte Devote run off at the start. The two Mercedes can disapear and the rest of us can get a race.”

Completely agree with that
TheToonArmy
23-05-2015
The both of you will eventually grow out of Nappies, someday
Si_Crewe
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Must be on for one of the most boring races of the dullest year ever tomorrow.

Rosberg should do the world a favour and shunt Hamilton in to the Sainte Devote run off at the start. The two Mercedes can disapear and the rest of us can get a race.”

Not sure how the 2 Merc's being on the circuit prevents all the other cars from racing behind them.

Do all the drivers get confused when they see a silver car in the lead and assume there's a safety-car so there's no overtaking allowed or something?
Forza Ferrari
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Not sure how the 2 Merc's being on the circuit prevents all the other cars from racing behind them.

Do all the drivers get confused when they see a silver car in the lead and assume there's a safety-car so there's no overtaking allowed or something?”

That appears to happen to Rosberg as Mercedes standard strategy for him to stay 2s behind hamilton and then do nothing while hamilton performs an undercut.

F1 is currently dying fast. It desperately needs a competitive GP. The only thing which will deliver this is a double Mercedes DNF.

Williams can race Ferrari and the Ferrari customer engines with the 2nd rate Mercedes engines. Then the renaults racing each other. The third rate Mercedes engine teams can race the woeful Mclaren Honda.

It would actually look like a motor race with out all eyes on Mercedes streaking away at the front.
Mark F
24-05-2015
Having watched the BBC "Classic races" yesterday maybe we need a lot of rain to liven things up!
Si_Crewe
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“That appears to happen to Rosberg as Mercedes standard strategy for him to stay 2s behind hamilton and then do nothing while hamilton performs an undercut.

F1 is currently dying fast. It desperately needs a competitive GP. The only thing which will deliver this is a double Mercedes DNF.

Williams can race Ferrari and the Ferrari customer engines with the 2nd rate Mercedes engines. Then the renaults racing each other. The third rate Mercedes engine teams can race the woeful Mclaren Honda.

It would actually look like a motor race with out all eyes on Mercedes streaking away at the front.”

If F1 survived 5 consecutive titles for Schuey while Ferrari were blatantly cheating, I'm sure it'll survive a black Brit' winning 2 in a row.
Forza Ferrari
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“If F1 survived 5 consecutive titles for Schuey while Ferrari were blatantly cheating, I'm sure it'll survive a black Brit' winning 2 in a row.”

For shame mate imagine attacking a sick man just to have a go at me. Grow some class.
Si_Crewe
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“For shame mate imagine attacking a sick man just to have a go at me. Grow some class.”

I imagine your worst nightmare must be the thought of a black Brit' driving for Ferrari.
Forza Ferrari
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Mark F:
“Having watched the BBC "Classic races" yesterday maybe we need a lot of rain to liven things up!”

I don't thinkthere is a lot of chance of that happening. I am not even sure it would help in the past wet conditions equalised the cars as the mechanic grip and traction was more important than the areo dynamics.

Now though with these complex power units everybody is struggling for drive ability and low speed traction due to the power coming in unpredictable lumps. Mercedes are about the only team with easily useable power. A wet track might even just make their advantage even bigger.

At the last GP Jenson had instant wheel spin in the dry. Renault have lost almost all drive ability this year. Mercedes mucked about with their fuel flow in quali to have the regulations changed just to make sure nobody else could have any good low speed traction. None of that is going to make for a good wet race.
Forza Ferrari
24-05-2015
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“I imagine your worst nightmare must be the thought of a black Brit' driving for Ferrari.”

No it's bad racing stop acting daft.
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