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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)


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Old 10-06-2015, 08:32
Assa2
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I think there are two main problems - the need for f1 to be seen to be 'green' and information overload.

I propose to:
Allow unlimited use of tyres with big differences in tyre compounds. Drivers should not have to start the race on the same tyres (or tyre compound) that they qualified on and if they want to try to run the whole race without making a pitstop, then that should be allowed. Tyre companies should be made to bring all the tyre compounds available during the year to each race meeting.

Get rid of hybrid engines. They're crap. The lack of noise on it's own is enough reason for getting rid. They just don't sound spectacular.

Ban the use of telemetry. Drivers should have to rely on their own race craft in judging how much they can push at any time in the race. Just allow teams to use pitside-boards. I would also go back to proper gearboxes, and get rid of other driver aids too.

When drivers are out on the track, the sport should be more about their ability. Teams wou!LD still have a big part to play in car development.
And what good would any of this do?

Tyres - teams aren't stupid. They know what the optimum tyre strategy is race by race. Giving teams a wider option of tyre compounds is coming next year and it won't make a difference other than make the whole field a bit faster. There will be the occasional race where a car out of position can use an alternate strategy but we get that already.

Engines - Possibly the one area I agree with. Hybrids were supposed to make F1 more relevant just at a time when the industry was starting to turn away from in in favour of other technologies to make engines much more efficient. That's what they should be pursuing. Smaller, more powerful internal combustion in a simpler form which will be cheaper. Fuel saving in races is nothing new - teams never run with enough fuel for a full race length and full race pace. The last GP was unusual for not having a safety car period which caught everyone out. The San Marino GP of old was notorious for cars running out of fuel.

Telemetry - F1 has been using it for 30 years or more. It has no relevance to how exciting the racing is. It does improve reliability which in turn makes it cheaper for teams. That's surely a good thing?

Driver aids - we had a ban on them in the 90s. I don't recall it had any effect on the racing other than making the cars slower. 'Driver aids' are a relevant technology for the motor industry at large. Personally I'd be happy with more technology in the cars.

Your last point is an interesting one. Right now the cars have too much grip for the power. The amount of time drivers spend concentrating on their steering wheel, turning switches is testimony to how 'easy' the cars are to drive. Verstappen may be a very gifted kid but there is now way a 17 year old with 2 years experience should be able to get into an F1 car and be quick. Some of that may be down to the immaturity of the engine technology but mostly it's a fundamental issue with the over-all design of modern F1 cars - an over-reliance on aero grip. At the end of the turbo era in the late 80s and again in the early 90s when the cars were their most technologically advanced they were monsters. The limiting factor in a car was the driver - how fast did they dare take a corner? Could they withstand the g-force around Stowe at full throttle? Part of me hankers after that era... but it was dangerous and the cars were unreliable. I'm not sure we want to regress all the way back to that?
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:46
mattlamb
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And what good would any of this do?

Tyres - teams aren't stupid. They know what the optimum tyre strategy is race by race. Giving teams a wider option of tyre compounds is coming next year and it won't make a difference other than make the whole field a bit faster. There will be the occasional race where a car out of position can use an alternate strategy but we get that already.

Engines - Possibly the one area I agree with. Hybrids were supposed to make F1 more relevant just at a time when the industry was starting to turn away from in in favour of other technologies to make engines much more efficient. That's what they should be pursuing. Smaller, more powerful internal combustion in a simpler form which will be cheaper. Fuel saving in races is nothing new - teams never run with enough fuel for a full race length and full race pace. The last GP was unusual for not having a safety car period which caught everyone out. The San Marino GP of old was notorious for cars running out of fuel.

Telemetry - F1 has been using it for 30 years or more. It has no relevance to how exciting the racing is. It does improve reliability which in turn makes it cheaper for teams. That's surely a good thing?

Driver aids - we had a ban on them in the 90s. I don't recall it had any effect on the racing other than making the cars slower. 'Driver aids' are a relevant technology for the motor industry at large. Personally I'd be happy with more technology in the cars.

Your last point is an interesting one. Right now the cars have too much grip for the power. The amount of time drivers spend concentrating on their steering wheel, turning switches is testimony to how 'easy' the cars are to drive. Verstappen may be a very gifted kid but there is now way a 17 year old with 2 years experience should be able to get into an F1 car and be quick. Some of that may be down to the immaturity of the engine technology but mostly it's a fundamental issue with the over-all design of modern F1 cars - an over-reliance on aero grip. At the end of the turbo era in the late 80s and again in the early 90s when the cars were their most technologically advanced they were monsters. The limiting factor in a car was the driver - how fast did they dare take a corner? Could they withstand the g-force around Stowe at full throttle? Part of me hankers after that era... but it was dangerous and the cars were unreliable. I'm not sure we want to regress all the way back to that?
But your last paragraph is an argument for driving aids to be banned. Why should racing cars be similar to road cars? The trend in road cars is towards taking way the input from the driver (which I hate). Why not go the whole hog in F1 and aim for cars without a driver?

Racing cars are racing cars. They should not be like road cars. Motor racing is a sport in which sports stars compete - they should demonstrate their driving ability and the cars should be difficult to drive. They should also demonstrate their ability to think in the heat of battle (just as other sportsmen and women in individual sports have to - eg: jockeys and tennis players). That is a strong argument to ban telemetry. It would also save everyone from hearing these interminable orders from teams for drivers to brake early in order to save fuel. This is a terrible advertisement for the sport.

Additionally, allowing a team to choose from a whole range of tyres and have no restrictions on how many sets they can use may well mean a greater range of strategies. I believe that this was how things worked for much of the eighties - and nelson Piquet's Brabham for example, would often pit more frequently than many other cars.
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Old 12-06-2015, 16:41
skinj
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That becomes a bit of a funny numbers game then. How would the FIA know the difference between Mercedes claiming their engine is at 85% of normal or that the normal Mercedes is claiming is really 115% of normal.

I don't mind that Mercedes did an upgrade. I was quite sure they would still be ahead by just putting new engines in and changing a setting.

It is this foolish developing not developing process which is broken.

Of course if the teams were allowed to push development they can only do so a certain amount because of the four engine rule.

Instead of having a limited number of engines they should let the teams use as many engines as they want one at a time. Evertime you change an engine the the max RPM limit you can use is reduced by a certain amount. So instead of sporting penalties for failures you have performance advantages for engine longevity.
It's fairly simple isn't it? If components are failing prematurely if the engine is fired up to full power then they should be upgraded to match the requirements of the engine.
For example, if a belt/chain drive component is having to be changed after every session because it is likely to fail, they should be allowed change these parts for more durable items. By changing these parts they have not actually done anything to the engine to make it more powerful but they have allowed the engine to be run longer & possibly at a higher power output.
Forget the numbers game & the fact I said Merc, they were both just plucked out of the air.
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Old 12-06-2015, 19:47
Forza Ferrari
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They are introducing performance improvements as reliability improvements all the time. How else have Honda improved so much before they used any tokens.

If the upgrade allows you to use a higher level of power the it's a performance upgrade.

So F1 should stop kidding it's self on with pointless wither tos and why fores and just unfreeze the non frozen engines.
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Old 13-06-2015, 12:01
Forza Ferrari
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Just reporting some news here so try not take it as an attack.

Lewis Hamilton went on TFI and got mauled for being boring and dull.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/l...riday-5874631?

Some quite savage stuff there poor lewis I hope he isn't upset.

Is it a problem for F1 that our biggest start is seen as having the personality of I think it was a dishcloth somebody said.
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Old 13-06-2015, 13:17
TheToonArmy
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Just reporting some news here so try not take it as an attack.

Lewis Hamilton went on TFI and got mauled for being boring and dull.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/l...riday-5874631?

Some quite savage stuff there poor lewis I hope he isn't upset.

Is it a problem for F1 that our biggest start is seen as having the personality of I think it was a dishcloth somebody said.
But you are not just reporting news, you are gloating in it

I wonder if you would have mentioned it if Vettel had been the F1 driver in question.

I will say it again, grow up, its getting very very tiresome your hatred for the Black Brit

And by the way, he's an F1 driver, as long as he drives the best then as far as I am concerned he can have a personality of many wet dish cloths, I dont care
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Old 13-06-2015, 13:39
Forza Ferrari
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Yeah thanks for the personal attack once again.

Thing is Bernie was saying last week how great hamilton is because he has this universak appeal. I think he was reffering to him getting along with some american reality TV people.

I think Hamilton would like to set up self up as the next brand Beckham. Thing is at least playing for Manchester united david had his sporting career at home.

Once he stops being an F1 driver it's possible Hamilton's future appeal will be in markets like america where they are more image driven.

Certainly a new phenomenon for a British champion to get panned after appearing on TV. You wouldn't expect it to happen to any of the olympic athletes.

Can't F1 even be more popular than people running and jumping anymore.
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Old 13-06-2015, 13:55
TheToonArmy
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Yeah thanks for the personal attack once again.
.
That's a bit rich coming from a guy who only purpose in life seems to be to attack Hamilton
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Old 13-06-2015, 14:26
Forza Ferrari
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You are attacking me now for other people opinions which I am only discussing in a reasonable manner.
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Old 13-06-2015, 14:40
TheToonArmy
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You are attacking me now for other people opinions which I am only discussing in a reasonable manner.

From any other person we could discuss, but it's you and you are gloating

But let's be honest, everything in that article you have said over and over again in the last few years

So stop with the "you are picking on me", because it's not working
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Old 13-06-2015, 14:43
Forza Ferrari
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I am not gloating you are jumping to your own conclusions and then attacking me.
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Old 13-06-2015, 14:45
TheToonArmy
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I am not gloating you are jumping to your own conclusions and then attacking me.

Where's the attack ?


You are gloating, fact
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Old 13-06-2015, 14:49
Forza Ferrari
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No I am not gloating I don't really care just find it interesting and think it is relevent to the current state of F1.

You are telling lies about me saying I am gloating when I have actually comiserated with hamilton.
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Old 13-06-2015, 15:01
TheToonArmy
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The trouble is........

Have you ever read Aesop's Fables, The boy who cried WolF

When nearly 99.99% of your posts in this forum are anti Hamilton and then you expect us to believe you when you post a link saying Hamilton is boring etc... and you wish to discuss this and actually, #SmilingWhenWritingThis, you say you are commiserating with LH

You are having a laugh


Another saying, a leopard does not change his spots
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Old 13-06-2015, 15:05
Forza Ferrari
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Well 99% of your posts are about me.

Care to make an F1 post instead of a Forza Ferrari one?

Any topic you like.
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Old 13-06-2015, 15:08
TheToonArmy
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Well 99% of your posts are about me.

Care to make an F1 post instead of a Forza Ferrari one?

Any topic you like.
Think you will find they are not, just recently
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Old 13-06-2015, 15:11
Forza Ferrari
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Nothing to say revent to the thread then oh well. What is it your posting for oh yes thats right to attack me.
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Old 13-06-2015, 15:15
TheToonArmy
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#JustNotWorthIt
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Old 13-06-2015, 15:44
Forza Ferrari
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Mclaren bringing a short nose to Austria.

http://www.grandprixtimes.com/news/display/10377?

It is supposed to be worth all the effort of redoing the crash test. Not sure if it is such a quantum leap it didn't help Red Bull a lot.
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Old 13-06-2015, 20:12
Batch
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What's the point, until Honda sort out the power plant its all so futile.

----------
To be fair Hamilton didn't fit the nutty nature of TFI. No modern F1 driver would IMO, they are all overly media trained against controversy hence dull.
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Old 13-06-2015, 20:45
Forza Ferrari
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What's the point, until Honda sort out the power plant its all so futile.

----------
To be fair Hamilton didn't fit the nutty nature of TFI. No modern F1 driver would IMO, they are all overly media trained against controversy hence dull.
Yeah it's a wee bit unfair sticking an F1 driver on a chat show when they still have to toe the line with what they say. They can be a wee bit more contraversial once they have retired but F1 dosen't really have enough universal appeal for them to stay relevent for long.

Mclaren want to get their areo etc right before the engine is fixed. I think the short nose is only a significant step if your long noes fouls the airflow to the back of the car. It's the sort of thing which brings benefits when coupled to other revisions but the teams are to restricted in wind tunnel time and CFD to easily get such things working.
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Old 14-06-2015, 10:01
Assa2
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Mclaren want to get their areo etc right before the engine is fixed. I think the short nose is only a significant step if your long noes fouls the airflow to the back of the car. It's the sort of thing which brings benefits when coupled to other revisions but the teams are to restricted in wind tunnel time and CFD to easily get such things working.
According to an analysis I read on the BBC after Canada, the McLaren chassis isn't the problem. Taking into account the alleged BHP deficit Honda are running and factoring that into the lap time, they reckon the McLaren is as good as the Ferrari chassis for chassis. It was an interesting piece but ultimately irrelevant because you cannot separate the 2 elements of the car but I maintain faith in the team that if Honda can sort out the power unit they will have a car Alonso can do something with. However I am starting to think it's going to take another 6 months at least i.e. it won't be this season. I think what people fail to understand is that Honda are effectively doing a year's worth of development on-track which the other manufacturers were doing in 2013 before the new engines were introduced last season. The question is why they & McLaren took the decision to run this season which was clearly a season too early?
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Old 14-06-2015, 12:57
Forza Ferrari
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Well if the Mclaren chassis is as good as the Ferrari one and Honda improve to somewhere ahead of Renault that would possible work out to around P10.

The Ferrari chassis still has many of the limitations from the 2014 design. Really the current Ferrari car is flattered by the current Ferrari engine.
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Old 15-06-2015, 19:53
Assa2
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Excellent article from the BBC which sums up everything I've been banging on about for the last 2 years (in particular my post last week).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/33104596
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Old 16-06-2015, 17:28
skinj
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Excellent article from the BBC which sums up everything I've been banging on about for the last 2 years (in particular my post last week).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/33104596
I think the big issue for everyone is now how open about the strategy, conservation of fuel & looking after tyres is. Constant messages on the radio telling not only the driver/pit wall what is going on but every other team on the grid and the viewers too.
In years gone by the driver in front would have no idea if the driver behind had good/bad tyres, enough fuel to push hard, braking imbalance, down force problems or engine issues. Now they know everything which means they don't have to push because they know that the car behind can't/won't/decided not too.
Similarly the car behind doesn't push to attack the car in front because they know from all the broadcast telemetry that the car in front has more fuel, good tyres, no engine gremlins etc.
All communication to the driver during the race should be delivered by the pit boards or in the pit stops. No telemetry from the car should be accessible to the team (during the race) except safety issues like imminent brake failure, puncture etc whereby a single pit stop/danger light is illuminated on the steering wheel. The driver can still talk to the pit wall to give orders such as "more wing on the front" or "option tyres in the next stop", but no feedback to them from the pits other than confirmation they have received the message should be allowed.

Make the drivers drive, make them choose how they manage the car, make them responsible for all driving decisions not a battery of PC's hooked up around the world deciding that tweak of dial 78 two clicks clockwise will save the fuel required. *

Make the team responsible for making a car that the driver can drive for the whole race without needing a Ctrl/Alt/Del reset every few laps & one that has more than enough fuel & reliability to let them race the b*lloc*s off it to either catch or stay in front of the opposition.
*The team could be allowed to make changes to the car from the wall but the driver would not be made aware of them specifically, for example the pits could adjust the fuel mix to ensure the car get to the end but the driver would not know, or they could change a setting to adjust the brake balance if they are in danger of running out before the end of the race. Again a light on the wheel could illuminate to let the driver know that a change has been made but it's up to them to work out what and adapt accordingly.

Another benefit of cutting out all the pit to driver communication and forcing the driver to be fully responsible for the car once the lights go out is that the teams would have to actually start employing the best drivers that are available to drive for them instead of looking for rich kids wanting the ultimate fairground ride who can buy their way into a car. I know some of the pay drivers are reasonably good but wouldn't it be better to have the cream of the crop in every car, people have have earned the right to drive by racing and out performing in other classes first on their own merits.

Last edited by skinj : 16-06-2015 at 17:39. Reason: Additional thought!
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