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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Forza Ferrari
27-08-2015
I see I didn't think article 16 would applie but use of tyres is specified in article 25 of the sporting code so it's a breach of the sporting code.

Makes sense then. Thanks.
Assa2
02-09-2015
Strong rumors that Renault will complete a 65% purchase of Lotus within weeks, allowing RBR to switch to Mercedes engines in 2016. Sounds like nearly everyone wins. Renault get a works team. Lotus survive under a new (old) name, RBR get to be competative (should challenge next season), Mercedes keep the same number of customers and get another team to keep Ferrari at bay and Bernie heads off the threat of Red Bull leaving the sport. The losers will be Williams who will drop back down to 4th at least, Maldonado who will lose his seat at Lotus/Renault (may swap with Perez at FI) and possibly Torro Rosso as it's unclear what engine they'll use. Seems unlikely they'll keep Renault, Mercedes can't supply another team and they'll not want to go back to Ferrari and be 3rd in line behind the works team and Haas.
mel_drew
02-09-2015
I'm at a loss to understand why Mercedes would supply Red Bull, a team which may very well be able to better their own chassis. I suspect it would take a massive sweetener from Ecclestone to make Merc even consider it. I know they say that they welcome competition, but not, maybe, competition that will regularly beat them.
Assa2
03-09-2015
Originally Posted by mel_drew:
“I'm at a loss to understand why Mercedes would supply Red Bull, a team which may very well be able to better their own chassis. I suspect it would take a massive sweetener from Ecclestone to make Merc even consider it. I know they say that they welcome competition, but not, maybe, competition that will regularly beat them.”

Because commercially they don't want to lose a customer (Lotus) without replacing them with another (Red Bull), especially if they can gain some advantageous brand awareness through the new relationship, because the damage done to F1 if Red Bull left the sport would massively undermine Mercedes achievements over the last 2 years (especially if they get accused of being afraid to supply an engine) and because if someone does beat the works team in 2016 Mercedes would rather Red Bull powered by their engine win rather than Ferrari.

However the works team will believe that even with their engine Red Bull won't beat them and there will be no excuses for Red Bull to hide behind.
PowerLee
03-09-2015
Also if Mercedes are providing Red Bull with power units, it would then mean Mercedes engineers would have access in to the Red Bull factory & pit garages to look after there power units.

Both Mercedes & Ferrari supply there own engineers to there customer teams to help look after there respective power units.

While the Mercedes or Ferrari engineer isn't going to gain much knowledge of what the customer team is up to OR what they have planned / in design, its still access to a rival teams garage / factory which could provide little bits of information / knowledge that could come in handy.
Forza Ferrari
04-09-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Because commercially they don't want to lose a customer (Lotus) without replacing them with another (Red Bull), especially if they can gain some advantageous brand awareness through the new relationship, because the damage done to F1 if Red Bull left the sport would massively undermine Mercedes achievements over the last 2 years (especially if they get accused of being afraid to supply an engine) and because if someone does beat the works team in 2016 Mercedes would rather Red Bull powered by their engine win rather than Ferrari.

However the works team will believe that even with their engine Red Bull won't beat them and there will be no excuses for Red Bull to hide behind.”

What is worse though Red Bull leaving all together and creating a space for somebody else to join or them becoming like Williams never able to win GP and never caring if they do or not.

This is where Red Bull have made a big mistake with their realtionship with Renault. I guess there has been a lack of trust as Renault were let down and frustrated by not being able to integrate with red bull to the same extent as a factory team.

So Red Bulls only option is to be a customer team. It would appear best to become a Mercedes customer team but despite all their domination no Mercedes customer team has yet won a race. It can't all be down to Williams being poor can it?
Kierenj
04-09-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“What is worse though Red Bull leaving all together and creating a space for somebody else to join or them becoming like Williams never able to win GP and never caring if they do or not.

This is where Red Bull have made a big mistake with their realtionship with Renault. I guess there has been a lack of trust as Renault were let down and frustrated by not being able to integrate with red bull to the same extent as a factory team.

So Red Bulls only option is to be a customer team. It would appear best to become a Mercedes customer team but despite all their domination no Mercedes customer team has yet won a race. It can't all be down to Williams being poor can it?”

All customer teams are going to struggle if they're on the receiving end of an engine which has a works team... that's pretty obvious to everyone right?

I thought a lot of this was posturing trying to get Porsche/Audi in for Red Bull?
Forza Ferrari
04-09-2015
Trouble is then they could have a Mclaren Honda situation on their hands.

Best bet for them would have been to intergate with Renault more but they must have been put off by Renaults ambitions to have their own team again.
Assa2
04-09-2015
I suspect Red Bull with a Mercedes engine would have won in both the last 2 season, probably not as many as they did anyway, ironically, but it would have stopped these ideas that Mercedes have any control over the customer teams in terms of race on race results. The teams pay good money to Mercedes for the engine. Mercedes aren't doing them a favour by supplying the engine, it's a commercial relationship. The simple truth is the teams Mercedes supply don't have the chassis to compete with the works team. Red Bull probably will. Think back to when Mercedes supplied Mclaren and had their works team. Who was the more successful until the 2014 engine regs change?

That's not to say the playing field is totally level, it clearly isn't. Mercedes are running the latest engine in their cars at Monza but not supplied it to anyone else. Again, the commercial relationship with their customers will cover this. Red Bull will probably want something closer to parity and I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes agreed. There's only one more season until another engine reg change which will probably benefit the works teams again so why not allow some competition in 2016?
Assa2
04-09-2015
So Pirrelli claim their investigation after Spa found no issues with the tyre construction or compound and blamed the two failures on external factors, cuts and ware. They cited over 60 tyre cuts over the weekend which is far higher than any other this season.

And yet... they said Vettel's tyres had 30% of the tread depth left - hardly over-worn. They also recommended draconian changes to the tyre pressures for Monza, up 5 psi, and less camber. Why the need to change anything if the tyres are intrinsically safe? Are the tyres safe only up to a given level of ware which they've never admitted to before? Is the tyre structure susceptible to catastrophic failure when cut if they are not run at a higher pressure (and therefore rounder = stronger). And why, if any of this is true, now agree to only a 1psi increase at Monza? Did they over-react or are they bowing to pressure from the teams at the cost of safety?

The FIA have said they're happy with Pirrelli's investigation and the teams and drivers are toeing the line in press briefings but according to Sky there's an underlying current in the paddock that things are definitely not resolved yet. I suspect they've collectively decided it's best to put on a united front for now.
dansus
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“The teams pay good money to Mercedes for the engine.

That's not to say the playing field is totally level, it clearly isn't. Mercedes are running the latest engine in their cars at Monza but not supplied it to anyone else.”

Its offered, but none took up the offer.
BinaryDad
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Mercedes are running the latest engine in their cars at Monza but not supplied it to anyone else.”

The other teams were offered, but none of them wanted the risk. With has played out given that Rosberg has had to revert to his old engine due to odd power fluctuations.
BinaryDad
06-09-2015
It turns out that Rosberg's PU woes were caused by a coolant leak so Ham is good to go for this race. I suspect that Hamilton's Merc was on reduced power during quail, hence the closeness of the Ferrari's - even though it seemed they had to really push to get close to the pole time.

Sucks for Rosberg - there's the possibility that the old PU won't have enough grunt to pass the red cars, and he'll be suffering from a bigger points loss than usual. That's assuming the old PU doesn't hand grenade during the race. I guess this is one of those times when we see the real impact of a technical issue for a driver up against a very talented team mate.
Kierenj
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by BinaryDad:
“It turns out that Rosberg's PU woes were caused by a coolant leak so Ham is good to go for this race. I suspect that Hamilton's Merc was on reduced power during quail, hence the closeness of the Ferrari's - even though it seemed they had to really push to get close to the pole time.

Sucks for Rosberg - there's the possibility that the old PU won't have enough grunt to pass the red cars, and he'll be suffering from a bigger points loss than usual. That's assuming the old PU doesn't hand grenade during the race. I guess this is one of those times when we see the real impact of a technical issue for a driver up against a very talented team mate.”

The Ferrari's have had a nice little boost for this GP as well.
BinaryDad
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by Kierenj:
“The Ferrari's have had a nice little boost for this GP as well.”

I thought they had held off spending more tokens - they were going for an upgrade, but then didn't bother.
Assa2
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by BinaryDad:
“I thought they had held off spending more tokens - they were going for an upgrade, but then didn't bother.”

They spent 3 tokens. James Allison confirmed the upgrade was the reason they had split the Mercs.

I agree LH probably never fully stretched his new engine's legs. Everyone was predicting a sub 1.23 lap but he would have known midway round his final lap he was safe so why risk pushing harder?

Rosberg still has a chance, if LH plays ball. The Mercs have a top speed advantage over Ferrari so if Lewis backs the red cars up Rosberg should be able to get past. Not sure Mercedes will try that, though.
Assa2
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by dansus:
“Its offered, but none took up the offer.”

Hadn't heard that. Seems a bit odd. If the works team think it's going to be reliable enough I'm surprised the other teams thought it was a risk.
Forza Ferrari
06-09-2015
What a shame with kimi not getting off the line. Just when we might have got some racing now just another easy mercedes win to watch.
BinaryDad
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“What a shame with kimi not getting off the line. Just when we might have got some racing now just another easy mercedes win to watch.”

Seeing the replay of him fumbling with the paddles of the wheel - he only had himself to blame.

Merc trouncing everybody - Ros could get close to 2nd given the tire deg that Ferrari are suffering.
Stunty
06-09-2015
This season it's hardly been gripping. Here's another race, which after the first corner is a procession to the line.

At least last year we had a bit of needle between the Mercedes drivers.

As for Bernie telling the drivers not to diss the Pirelli tyres to the media ..... it's not his life that is in danger. Words fail me about that, and Vettel has every right to say anything he pleases if is safety that he is concerned about.

They care about safety but then the ptb don't care. An example is the Max Verstappen penalty for part of his car flying off during qualifying. More pressure is put on the engineers to get the car on the circuit, a race against time, just like the pit stop tyre changes, is it any wonder that they don't get more instances like this?
Stunty
06-09-2015
Just seen on the screen and Sky must be having a laugh .....

'Battle for 1st' and Vettel is 22 seconds behind.
Forza Ferrari
06-09-2015
Yip looks like kimi had an issue having the car ready for the start. It's bad for the sport the effect which it has had on the quality of this race. So another cheap trick from F1 to improve the show which has backfired.
Forza Ferrari
06-09-2015
Originally Posted by Stunty:
“This season it's hardly been gripping. Here's another race, which after the first corner is a procession to the line.”

Agreed it is a worry how much more of this the sport can survive.
JSemple3
06-09-2015
Rosberg's engine's let go. He's out
nainz
06-09-2015
OMG I've been so nervous for Hamilton's engine for the last 5 laps! FGFT!
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