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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8) |
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#751 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,716
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[It's entirely unrealistic simply to say 'they're cars, let them be raced', as there are many more variables than that, and F1 is as much about strategy as anything else, no matter what the people who only watch it to see fast racing try to claim. To say it's only about racing is to miss the point completely.
Of course, it's about racing. Racing car teams and their drivers racing against each other. Team strategy is an element of F1. . No more, no less. When both drivers have a mathematical shot at the tittle, they should be allowed to race each other, regardless whether it is the first, second or final race of the season. Championships can be won in the first part of the season if a driver builds up enough of a cushion in the points over the rest. Jenson Button in his season with Brawn spriongs to mind - he certainly wasn't tthe quickest out there in the second half of the season but his lightning start to the season basically won him the title. If a driver is quick, the team shouldn;t prevent him from attempting to build up a champuionship winning lead in the early part of the season. |
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#752 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
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Quote:
[It's entirely unrealistic simply to say 'they're cars, let them be raced', as there are many more variables than that, and F1 is as much about strategy as anything else, no matter what the people who only watch it to see fast racing try to claim. To say it's only about racing is to miss the point completely.
Of course, it's about racing. Racing car teams and their drivers racing against each other. Team strategy is an element of F1. . No more, no less. When both drivers have a mathematical shot at the tittle, they should be allowed to race each other, regardless whether it is the first, second or final race of the season. Championships can be won in the first part of the season if a driver builds up enough of a cushion in the points over the rest. Jenson Button in his season with Brawn spriongs to mind - he certainly wasn't tthe quickest out there in the second half of the season but his lightning start to the season basically won him the title. If a driver is quick, the team shouldn;t prevent him from attempting to build up a champuionship winning lead in the early part of the season. |
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#753 |
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 17
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From a fan point of view it was a great end to the race with Webber and Vettel. I am sure the teams were not happy but I want to see people racing each other regardless of what team they are on. Fingers crossed this will lead more great races this season.
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#754 |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,288
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If F1 teams only want to race to two-thirds distance why don't they just cut the race length by one-third?
Everyone's a winner. Except Webber. Again. |
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#755 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3,178
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Why didn't Webber leave Red Bull when he had the chance last season? He signed a year extension to his contract mid season, despite teams like Ferrari making noises they would want Webber as their driver.
Mark know's full well where he stands at Red Bull, so I really don't know why he wanted to stay another season as what happened last weekend was always a strong possibility at some point. Just don't get it with Mark sometimes. He has moaned quite a lot in the last few years about his treatment at Red Bull (rightly so) but then stays with them despite having a chance to go elsewhere. |
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#756 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 17,003
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Quote:
Why didn't Webber leave Red Bull when he had the chance last season? He signed a year extension to his contract mid season, despite teams like Ferrari making noises they would want Webber as their driver.
Mark know's full well where he stands at Red Bull, so I really don't know why he wanted to stay another season as what happened last weekend was always a strong possibility at some point. Just don't get it with Mark sometimes. He has moaned quite a lot in the last few years about his treatment at Red Bull (rightly so) but then stays with them despite having a chance to go elsewhere. |
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#757 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3,178
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He'd be in worse off at Ferrari, having to move aside for Alonso. At least at Red Bull there are no team orders (well officially not anyway).
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#758 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 117,025
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I think maybe you should read all the posts that have nothing to do with the relationship between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel - whether or not they care about each other or are wrecking each other's chances of winning the title is, as many have pointed out already, entirely irrelevant.
It's to do with the team, not whether one driver has more integrity than the other! Quote:
Team orders haven't been officially allowed for very long so such incidents haven't gained as much publicity as now, when the rules are clear to see and Vettel's actions even clearer. As others have said, the point is that Vettel is under contract to do what he's told if it's in the best interests of the team.
Can you imagine what would happen to say a star footballer like Wayne Rooney, if he ignored an instruction from Sir Alex to play in midfield to reinforce them, but he carried on up front as a striker? Well I can - he'd be dropped and if he did it again, he'd be on the transfer list! That's exactly what should happen to Vettel (or Webber if he pulls a similar stunt in the future). Vettel's made Horner look like a weak manager and the only way to put that right is to punish Vettel in a way that is as obvious to the outside World as Rooney being dropped would be. Quote:
Would there have not been any other options though? Say Williams, Force India maybe even Lotus?
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#759 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
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Quote:
Edit: btw Button was not under team orders not to pass Hamilton in Turkey.
Dunno if it's still there but, although we didn't hear it at the time, the highlights video on the F1.com website has the radio message to Button in it which confirms that he was supposed to be holding position. |
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#760 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
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If F1 teams only want to race to two-thirds distance why don't they just cut the race length by one-third?
Hamilton, in particular I think, has a hard time getting his head around the idea that the tyres simply won't work for the entire race duration. In the Bridgestone days they could race from lights-out to chequered flag but that's simply not the case any more. I think that, after a few races where drivers on different strategies created some drama at the end of races, the powers that be have decided to try and deliberately create that kind of situation with fragile tyres but most of the teams have figured out the same things about the tyres so you still only get those dramas when something unusual happens. |
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#761 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Greater Manchester
Posts: 2,146
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Yes he was.
Dunno if it's still there but, although we didn't hear it at the time, the highlights video on the F1.com website has the radio message to Button in it which confirms that he was supposed to be holding position. A quote from a recent interview with Button: "Lewis and I had something like that in Turkey’ said Button. ‘He was told to turn his engine down but I didn’t know. Lewis thought they had told me, I overtook him and then Lewis overtook me." |
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#762 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
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I've never heard a radio message to Button telling him to hold position. I heard Hamilton asking the team if Button would try to pass him when he turned the engine down and the team told Hamilton that Button wouldn't try to pass. Team orders weren't allowed that year so I can't see Mclaren telling Button to hold position.
A quote from a recent interview with Button: "Lewis and I had something like that in Turkey’ said Button. ‘He was told to turn his engine down but I didn’t know. Lewis thought they had told me, I overtook him and then Lewis overtook me." That's one of the reasons I'm always a bit dubious of the sincerity of Button's comments. There flat-out was a radio message telling Button to turn down his engine and maintain a 2 second gap to Hamilton. I suppose the team would argue that it wasn't "team orders" but was just them telling Button how to manage his fuel to the end of the race and that they might've said the same thing if he was following Vettel or Alonso etc. |
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#763 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Greater Manchester
Posts: 2,146
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There was no radio message to Button telling him to hold second place. Team orders were banned that year, if Mclaren had told Button to stay in second place there would of been a massive backlash against Mclaren.
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#764 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,764
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Could not find any video of the Turkey GP, found these though.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/06/0...tmarsh-admits/ http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/06/0...sh-grand-prix/ |
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#765 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,659
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Team orders never went away even when they were banned. Wither there were codes, target lap times or the drivers just knew what was expected.
Heikki Kov was a clear No. 2 for Lewis at Mclaren and moved over at least once. |
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#766 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,246
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http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/106462
Dupont f1 to be revealed as an f1 team for 2014, or are autosport doing an april fools joke. Either way we find out in 10 mins time ![]() http://www.dupontf1.com/ |
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#767 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
Hamilton, in particular I think, has a hard time getting his head around the idea that the tyres simply won't work for the entire race duration.
He might LIKE the tires to work like the 2009 Bridgestone's. But that doesn't mean he's had trouble getting his head around the very different life-cycle of the rubber. I'd say he always knew that he'd have to drive differently to get the tires to work as intended, where as his team mate, Button, wasn't able to take the same approach to the same degree. The only race where I can think Lewis made a very bad judgement call on the tires, was probably the European Grand Prix where he should have just ceded the place to Raikonnen. |
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#768 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
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The only race where I can think Lewis made a very bad judgement call on the tires, was probably the European Grand Prix where he should have just ceded the place to Raikonnen.
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#769 |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,981
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There was also the time when he should have given up the place to Maldonado, sorry cant remember the race now.
You're right in saying that it was a mistake for Hamilton to fight with Maldonado, even though the resulting collision was completely on Pastor's shoulders. But to my mind, the real error started quite a few laps earlier while defending the place against Kimi. This then put Hamilton in the position where he was within reach of Pastor, because his tires were too far gone to keep any sort of decent pace. It was a real shame as well, because he had just won at Canada and before that, had kept a car that was very unkind to its tires in the championship battle. This along with Spa was the only real blot on a very good year for Hamilton, where the only thing that stood between him and fighting for the title were team/logistic screw ups and mechanical issues. |
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#770 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,411
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It's pretty obvious they've gone too far with the tyres. They need to get the balance right and make sure it doesn't turn into a circus.
Looking after tyres is one thing, but the whole race weekend being based around tyre preservation and tyre strategy is a step in the wrong direction. It needs to be one small aspect, amongst many, not the one main factor, which it currently is. Hopefully they'll change things a bit with the tyre compounds. |
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#771 |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mid Kent
Posts: 1,535
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Quote:
It's pretty obvious they've gone too far with the tyres. They need to get the balance right and make sure it doesn't turn into a circus.
Looking after tyres is one thing, but the whole race weekend being based around tyre preservation and tyre strategy is a step in the wrong direction. It needs to be one small aspect, amongst many, not the one main factor, which it currently is. Hopefully they'll change things a bit with the tyre compounds. Sorry, couldn't resist. |
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#772 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3,178
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Wow, Vettel really is coming across as a right prick at the moment ;
Vettel was asked if he would repeat his actions from the Malaysian Grand Prix. He said: "I'm not sure I can give a proper answer because in the moment it might be different but I would probably do the same." "I never had support from his side. I have a lot of support from the team and think they are supporting both of us the same way. I respect Mark as a racing driver but there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't." |
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#773 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dumfries
Posts: 38,495
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Quote:
I'm not entirely sure if that's true. From my view, Hamilton along with Alonso, has shown that he's had a very good grasp as to how the tires work and how long that they'll work for.
He might LIKE the tires to work like the 2009 Bridgestone's. But that doesn't mean he's had trouble getting his head around the very different life-cycle of the rubber. I'd say he always knew that he'd have to drive differently to get the tires to work as intended, where as his team mate, Button, wasn't able to take the same approach to the same degree. The only race where I can think Lewis made a very bad judgement call on the tires, was probably the European Grand Prix where he should have just ceded the place to Raikonnen. Lewis seems (or seemed, at least) to prefer to push and catch a leading car, which has often led to him being forced to pit earlier than the surrounding cars. He certainly can look after his tyres when he needs to but I don't think he particularly enjoys racing like that. Quote:
Wow, Vettel really is coming across as a right prick at the moment ;
Vettel was asked if he would repeat his actions from the Malaysian Grand Prix. He said: "I'm not sure I can give a proper answer because in the moment it might be different but I would probably do the same." "I never had support from his side. I have a lot of support from the team and think they are supporting both of us the same way. I respect Mark as a racing driver but there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't." Sounds like he thinks he's been contrite for long enough. |
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#774 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,792
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Ah how predictable Red Bull (sorry, Sebastian Vettel Inc.), this can really only benefit one person: Quote:
Red Bull will reduce the use of team orders after owner Dietrich Mateschitz intervened in the Sebastian Vettel row. Mateschitz has agreed with principal Christian Horner that Red Bull will change how they use the orders. Horner said: "I had discussions with Dietrich and we agreed that Red Bull is not a fan of team orders. "Therefore we will not impose team orders at the end of a race. However, we expect the drivers to act on the information they have from the team." http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22109935 |
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#775 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: North West Kent
Posts: 1,808
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Yea naughty schoolboy breaks the rules do they punish him?
No they change the rules, If I was Mark Webber I would want to get out of that team ASAP!! |
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