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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Aslan52
27-10-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Alonso has said that the new engine was only worth 0.1s.

Not much sign of light at the end of that rambow likely 2016 won't be much better than 2015 for Mclaren Honda.”

I bet the 2016 car will have "the 2nd best chassis on the grid" again though.

It'd be rather funny if Honda DID show up in 2016 with an absolute monster of an engine, thus putting the pressure on McLaren to make good use of it.

It was quite funny when, during "Ted's Notebook", the cameraman focussed on a small Honda generator and Kravitz asked him why he was so interested in it, to which the cameraman replied "It's Alonso's engine for next year".
Forza Ferrari
27-10-2015
Without free development I really don't see how honda can ever catch up or Renault really. Ferrari might get closer to Mercedes if the repackaged engine is 100% successful and all the areo gains are appreciated. But I worry the 2016 Ferrari engine will be too much of a compromise then we could get an even more one sided championship.
Forza Ferrari
27-10-2015
Without free development I really don't see how honda can ever catch up or Renault really. Ferrari might get closer to Mercedes if the repackaged engine is 100% successful and all the areo gains are appreciated. But I worry the 2016 Ferrari engine will be too much of a compromise then we could get an even more one sided championship.
Assa2
27-10-2015
The 'new' Honda engine wasn't much of a development anyway, only revised exhaust and a few other parts but nothing major that was going to give a big boost in performance. The Honda ICE is OK anyway, It's the ERS that needs major development, the turbo specifically which is too small. Ironically that's Mclaren's fault for imposing major limitations on the turbo design from their 'size zero' chassis. Next year's Honda will be a lot better. The risk though is that Renault take a big leap forward and that both Ferrari and Mercedes find some extra oomph leaving Honda 4th in line again. There's only so much a good chassis can do to make up the difference as Red Bull have shown all season. A reasonable expectation for next season would be mid-field competing with FI and possibly Red Bull depending on what engine they end up with. A few podiums would be a decent result. 2017 is probably the first season they can aim to compete at the front.
Aslan52
27-10-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“The 'new' Honda engine wasn't much of a development anyway, only revised exhaust and a few other parts but nothing major that was going to give a big boost in performance. The Honda ICE is OK anyway, It's the ERS that needs major development, the turbo specifically which is too small. Ironically that's Mclaren's fault for imposing major limitations on the turbo design from their 'size zero' chassis.”

Trouble is, from what I've read, that there's no room in the middle of the ICE vee for an ERS system and Honda really want to skip the entire thing and start again with a larger space between the cylinder banks so they can fit the ERS there.

Here's a picture of the layouts which shows the problem:-
http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-...640.medium.jpg

Basically, Ferrari and Mercedes can just extend the MGU-H as far along the vee as they need to in order to get the full charge allowed by the rules whereas enlarging the MGU-H on the Honda engine would mean moving the turbine rearward which would cook the gearbox and give the car a fat rear.

Still, I suppose it's usually possible to improve electrical devices.
Honda know what they've got to achieve and they just need to work at it until they find a way to get it done.

Unless there's absolutely NO room in the vee at all you'd think they'd be able to revert to a Ferrari-style system and just build a skinny MGU-H that extends further along the block to give the same charge as the Ferrari and Mercedes unit.

Alternatively (which McLaren might prefer) perhaps they could turn the entire Turbo around so the exhaust vents forward and then they could build an MGU-H as long as required, extending rearwards?
The only problem there would be the need to design some kind of exhaust manifold (and heat-shield to protect the engine) to attach to the turbine exit and send the exhaust gasses back toward the rear of the car.
That might even be an advantage, though, if they could find some legal position for a pair of exhausts (one either side, perhaps) somewhere on the flanks of the car.
Assa2
27-10-2015
Isn't the position of the exhaust stipulated in the regs these days?
Aslan52
27-10-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Isn't the position of the exhaust stipulated in the regs these days?”

I had to check before replying.

Apparently the current exhaust position and configuration IS now mandatory which is a bit of a shame.

The main thing that Honda have got "on their side" is that they've got the large-ish compressor and the turbine with a comparatively small-diameter MGU-H between them.
I suppose the key is to think up new ways of maximising the use of that space.
deadmancarl
27-10-2015
Originally Posted by Aslan52:
“I had to check before replying.

Apparently the current exhaust position and configuration IS now mandatory which is a bit of a shame.

The main thing that Honda have got "on their side" is that they've got the large-ish compressor and the turbine with a comparatively small-diameter MGU-H between them.
I suppose the key is to think up new ways of maximising the use of that space.”

But I think they are allowing an extra exhaust for next year to improve the sound
Aslan52
28-10-2015
Originally Posted by deadmancarl:
“But I think they are allowing an extra exhaust for next year to improve the sound”

Sort of.

Apparently they want teams to run a turbo waste-gate outlet to the same area as the ICE exhaust so that spectators will get to hear all the chirping and whooshing from the waste-gate.

Honestly, I'm surprised the teams aren't already doing that voluntarily, rather than having all that pressurised hot air just venting inside the body somewhere, but I'm wondering if they use the vented air for something and the FIA are trying to put a stop to it (whatever "it" is) by forcing them to vent the air at the exhaust.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121332
dansus
28-10-2015
Originally Posted by Aslan52:
“
The main thing that Honda have got "on their side" is that they've got the large-ish compressor and the turbine with a comparatively small-diameter MGU-H between them.
I suppose the key is to think up new ways of maximising the use of that space.”

Think they ran a larger MGU-H at Austin, but its still not big enough to make up for the deficit.

Also remember reading about a wider V engine in the works.
Aslan52
28-10-2015
Originally Posted by dansus:
“Think they ran a larger MGU-H at Austin, but its still not big enough to make up for the deficit.

Also remember reading about a wider V engine in the works.”

Yeah, I thought I'd read that they wanted to redesign the ICE completely with a wider angle between the cylinder banks but I have no idea whether that's possible due to tokens or regulations and all the other stuff related to that.

I would assume that the reason they want the wider vee IS so they can shove the MGU-H in there but I have no idea if doing that would eat up even more tokens than the ICE redesign alone.
If that WAS allowed, you'd think that Ferrari and Renault would have already got around to copying Mercedes' split turbo design.
Unless, of course, Ferrari and Renault just consider that too much work and Honda are prepared to give it a try.

I bet there are plenty of recriminations flying around behind the scenes between McLaren and Honda, with Honda getting all the blame even though it seems to be McLaren who convinced them to build a narrow-angle engine to minimise the cross-sectional area of the car's rear.
Forza Ferrari
28-10-2015
Originally Posted by Aslan52:
“If that WAS allowed, you'd think that Ferrari and Renault would have already got around to copying Mercedes' split turbo design.
Unless, of course, Ferrari and Renault just consider that too much work and Honda are prepared to give it a try.”

Ferrari and Renault have both previously commented that they considered the split turbo but didn't think it was all that beneficial. Apparently it is unique to the engine but not what makes it so good.

Could be this is what Ferrari is doing for next year who knows.
dansus
29-10-2015
Originally Posted by Aslan52:
“
I bet there are plenty of recriminations flying around behind the scenes between McLaren and Honda, with Honda getting all the blame even though it seems to be McLaren who convinced them to build a narrow-angle engine to minimise the cross-sectional area of the car's rear.”

Honda thought they could spin the smaller MGU-H faster at 120k, but never got it working. Lack of e-juice means they use more fuel and have to back off the power to get to the end of the race.
BinaryDad
29-10-2015
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Ferrari and Renault have both previously commented that they considered the split turbo but didn't think it was all that beneficial. Apparently it is unique to the engine but not what makes it so good.

Could be this is what Ferrari is doing for next year who knows.”

It's part of what makes the PU so good, but the whole story. I think it has a knock on effect on things like intercooler size and other things, which in turn has effects how the entire unit can be packaged and the freedom it allows the chassis designers.

This is something that McLaren/Honda have tried to do this year, but I don't think they've fully understood what this sort of integration requires, in great detail.

As for Ferrari - I'm not sure how much they can change on the PU to get closer to the flexibility allowed for the chassis. Ferrari may mount more of a challenge next year, but they're still significantly behind the Mercedes development curve. And while they're working hard to get more performance, Mercedes will be concentrating on using their performance they have for longer periods of time.
Aslan52
29-10-2015
Originally Posted by dansus:
“Honda thought they could spin the smaller MGU-H faster at 120k, but never got it working. Lack of e-juice means they use more fuel and have to back off the power to get to the end of the race.”

You know, that's fairly obvious but I'd never really considered it before.

Most fans are now aware that the Honda ERS doesn't provide as much juice as the others but of course that ALSO means that they're almost certainly using more petrol as well so it's going to be a bit of a double-whammy.

There was a rather telling bit of onboard footage during the Austin race too.

Alonso came out of the last corner and nailed the throttle (presumably getting into top gear), went over the start/finish straight and then he changed DOWN a gear as the car began to climb the hill before dropping down through the gears when he reached turn 1.

By comparison, onboard footage of Hamilton showed him coming out of the final turn, going up through the gears and then just accelerated all the way along the start/finish straight and dropped down through the gears for turn 1.

I'm not sure if Alonso needed to make that extra down-shift because Honda engine was struggling with the hill or because he needed to increase the revs to get some electrical charge into the battery.
Either way, it clearly showed that the Honda engine definitely wasn't as "strong" as the Mercedes unit, which could just throw Hamilton down the road without any fuss at all.

And, of course, any time that you're in a lower gear than another car it means you're using more fuel than the other guy as well.


Another thing I was wondering about was whether it'd be possible to build some kind of ERS-H that used more than one generator.
It might be possible to build something along the lines of a rootes blower, whereby one generator is run directly off the shaft between the turbine and the compressor and a 2nd generator was driven by gears also fitted to that shaft.
Of course, a turbo runs at insane speeds and I'm not sure how long the gear-drive would last.

Another idea I had was that you could, theoretically, just fit a pair of turbines (that is, just the turbine half of a turbocharger) into the exhaust system (one for either bank of the vee, perhaps) specifically to drive a pair of ERS-H generators and then have the exhaust continuing on to a regular turbo unit at the rear of the engine.
That would almost certainly work, although I'm not sure whether it'd back-pressure the exhaust unacceptably.
eugenespeed
29-10-2015
Lewis Hamilton: Mexican Wrestler.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...-a6713201.html
anyonefortennis
29-10-2015
Originally Posted by eugenespeed:
“Lewis Hamilton: Mexican Wrestler.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...-a6713201.html”

That's so funny. He's so bouncy.
Aslan52
29-10-2015
Originally Posted by eugenespeed:
“Lewis Hamilton: Mexican Wrestler.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...-a6713201.html”

Great stuff!

I don't really do social media so I've got no idea if Hamilton has been tweeting about his post-championship activities on there but I've been wondering if there were going to be any news stories about him tumbling out of night-clubs at 4am etc.
I guess he's been getting involved in Mexican culture anyway.

It's rather funny watching that video though. Doesn't really do a lot for the credibility of professional wrestling.
TVScourge
30-10-2015
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Blimey an exciting race and well done to Hamilton on his third WDC. You have to feel a tad sorry for Rosberg but his complaints about turn 1 at the start are sour grapes as he didn't lose the race there he lost it when he made a mistake and went off the track when leading. He certainly isn't a good loser.”

So you're not allowed to be sad or angry at losing a world championship again to a mistake you've made? I get your logic.

I don't understand singling Rosberg out for being a bad loser. Who likes being a loser twice in a row?
anyonefortennis
30-10-2015
Originally Posted by eugenespeed:
“Lewis Hamilton: Mexican Wrestler.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...-a6713201.html”

They should put him up against Nico next time and they could sort out their problems in the ring.
surfie
30-10-2015
Originally Posted by BinaryDad:
“{Snip}It's part of what makes the PU so good, but the whole story. I think it has a knock on effect on things like intercooler size and other things, which in turn has effects how the entire unit can be packaged and the freedom it allows the chassis designers.

.”

This is basically what was said on Sky Sports F1 last year. Splitting the turbo in half and connecting both halves with a longer shaft, means Mercedes ( and their customer teams) don't have to have as much pipework leading to the intercooler, thus them being able to package the bodywork around the ICE better.
Assa2
30-10-2015
I'm going to be interested to see how fast they get on the long straight this weekend. Was watching the drivers press conference and they were talking about how it's one of the longest straights of the year with a relatively fast entry. With the altitude the drag is reduced while the engine is not suffering power loss due to the new technology so they have the potential to be very fast. Will be surprised if they top out higher than Monza but as it's a new track I don't think anyone knows.

The weather is also supposed to be temperamental this weekend again so another exciting race is on the cards!
Assa2
30-10-2015
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Will be surprised if they top out higher than Monza but as it's a new track I don't think anyone knows.

The weather is also supposed to be temperamental this weekend again so another exciting race is on the cards!”

So they started FP1 on intermediates, the track looks super green and slippery and they're already hitting 360kph / 225mph which is faster than Monza in these cars. Think 230mph + should be achievable by the time they reach qualifying. Is it really childish of me to be so interested in this?
Aslan52
30-10-2015
Interesting to see that Rosberg's brakes caught fire in spectacular fashion during FP1 in Mexico.

I wonder if that's a sign that it's a heavy-braking circuit or whether it's the result of Rosberg spending a lot of time stamping on the anchors heavily while trying to learn the circuit?
Assa2
30-10-2015
Think it's that the teams have underestimated how the thin air is effecting things. Low downforce means less aero breaking so more demand on the mechanical breaks but also less cooling so hotter breaks too. That said running larger intakes shouldn't cost the teams much in terms of drag.
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