I asked a racing driver (BTCC level) friend on Facebook what he thought of what Lewis did and he and other known racing drivers replied (including one whose brother was recently [s]rubbish[/s] in F1 - make of that what you will) and unequivocally they all said they'd have done the same thing and showed how much he wanted it.
Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Originally Posted by David_Flett1:
“Why don't you tweet Mansell and call him a liar directly instead of on a forum Mansell won't ever read.”
“Why don't you tweet Mansell and call him a liar directly instead of on a forum Mansell won't ever read.”
If you're that bothered send him an email
Originally Posted by David_Flett1:
“And yet had Hamilton been in any other team over the last three years he wouldn't have won two titles. The team invested a huge amount of money, technical expertise and a huge backroom staff to have the best car on the grid. Hamilton should reflect on that.”
“And yet had Hamilton been in any other team over the last three years he wouldn't have won two titles. The team invested a huge amount of money, technical expertise and a huge backroom staff to have the best car on the grid. Hamilton should reflect on that.”
they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?
Originally Posted by DanielF:
“I asked a racing driver (BTCC level) friend on Facebook what he thought of what Lewis did and he and other known racing drivers replied (including one whose brother was recently [s]rubbish[/s] in F1 - make of that what you will) and unequivocally they all said they'd have done the same thing and showed how much he wanted it.”
“I asked a racing driver (BTCC level) friend on Facebook what he thought of what Lewis did and he and other known racing drivers replied (including one whose brother was recently [s]rubbish[/s] in F1 - make of that what you will) and unequivocally they all said they'd have done the same thing and showed how much he wanted it.”
A mate of mine does racing commentary an asked something similar on his FB page, everyone there said they'd do exactly the same thing.
Originally Posted by David_Flett1:
“And yet had Hamilton been in any other team over the last three years he wouldn't have won two titles. The team invested a huge amount of money, technical expertise and a huge backroom staff to have the best car on the grid. Hamilton should reflect on that.”
“And yet had Hamilton been in any other team over the last three years he wouldn't have won two titles. The team invested a huge amount of money, technical expertise and a huge backroom staff to have the best car on the grid. Hamilton should reflect on that.”
True but after being a top 5 driver in F1 for 5 consecutive seasons including one championship - Mercedes knew exactly what they were getting - probably the fastest driver in F1 albeit not then having the fastest team. Would Mercedes have had the same level of dominance with Rosberg and someone else is an interesting question. The answer isn't clear cut but presumably, it was to Mercedes.
got to ask the question why he didnt go all out and get nico to smash into the back of him if he wanted to play that way, all or nothing.
anyway, congrats nico.
anyway, congrats nico.
Originally Posted by stripe:
“got to ask the question why he didnt go all out and get nico to smash into the back of him if he wanted to play that way, all or nothing.
anyway, congrats nico.”
“got to ask the question why he didnt go all out and get nico to smash into the back of him if he wanted to play that way, all or nothing.
anyway, congrats nico.”
Because he had to finish with enough points to beat Nico. A rear end crash would likely see Hamilton out of the race which he couldn't afford. Nico however could afford to take him off the track & for them both to not finish.
Originally Posted by skinj:
“I'm not forgetting it at all!
Mercedes had zero to gain by interfering with the WDC title decider.
If the cars crashed each other off the track, Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If Rosberg overtakes Hamilton through his own skill, everyone sees that maybe he has more talent than he gets given credit for & Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If the Hamilton plan works and Rosberg drops to 4th giving Hamilton the title, only Rosbergs reputation is damaged & Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If what happened yesterday happened but without the radio calls from the Merc pit wall, Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If they make the call from the pits and try to meddle with the outcome, Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are annoyed that Merc wouldn't let them race out the final race to decide the winner.
In all scenarios above, Merc are already the WCC winners which is the above all else, most important thing for them as a company.”
“I'm not forgetting it at all!
Mercedes had zero to gain by interfering with the WDC title decider.
If the cars crashed each other off the track, Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If Rosberg overtakes Hamilton through his own skill, everyone sees that maybe he has more talent than he gets given credit for & Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If the Hamilton plan works and Rosberg drops to 4th giving Hamilton the title, only Rosbergs reputation is damaged & Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If what happened yesterday happened but without the radio calls from the Merc pit wall, Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are impressed that Merc let them race.
If they make the call from the pits and try to meddle with the outcome, Merc has the number one & number two drivers in the WDC & people are annoyed that Merc wouldn't let them race out the final race to decide the winner.
In all scenarios above, Merc are already the WCC winners which is the above all else, most important thing for them as a company.”
Going into Abu Dhabi, Mercedes had already achieved the constructors' title, and would guarantee a 1 - 2 in the drivers' championship.
The only meaningful achievement left was to win the Abu Dhabi GP, preferably with a 1 - 2 finish.
Hamilton backing up put that at risk. That was the problem.
Originally Posted by skinj:
“......& that is interfering with the a title deciding race in which the team has zero to gain at all.
1st in WDC, sewn up already no matter what happens.
2nd in WDC, sewn up already no matter what happens.
1st in WCC, sewn up already weeks ago.
Anyone/Any team that doesn't understand that drivers race for both themselves & the team have no idea what F1 is about.
If this race was pivital in deciding the WCC and Merc needed a 1/2 finish then the calls would be fine whilst still slightly annoying. Under the circumstances they were in they should have shut up and told Rosberg if he wants past he has to do it himself.”
“......& that is interfering with the a title deciding race in which the team has zero to gain at all.
1st in WDC, sewn up already no matter what happens.
2nd in WDC, sewn up already no matter what happens.
1st in WCC, sewn up already weeks ago.
Anyone/Any team that doesn't understand that drivers race for both themselves & the team have no idea what F1 is about.
If this race was pivital in deciding the WCC and Merc needed a 1/2 finish then the calls would be fine whilst still slightly annoying. Under the circumstances they were in they should have shut up and told Rosberg if he wants past he has to do it himself.”
Of course if Rosberg wants to get past he has to drive past. Hamilton was never going to let him past. That was never the issue.
You seem unable to understand that Mercedes still had an interest in the race, even at this stage of the season. That was that they wanted to win the Abu Dhabi GP, ideally as a 1 - 2, and didn't want to put that win at risk because Hamilton was backing up into Rosberg.
Originally Posted by skinj:
“they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?”
“they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?”
Again irrelevant to the team...they want their cars home in 1 & 2, not their employee playing silly buggers and potentially costing the team 1 & 2. At the end of the day, F1 is a team sport, the WDC is not what the teams care about. The teams choose the best drivers in order to get 1 & 2, any driver will want to go to a team that can provide the best chance of winning a WDC, and at the moment Mercedes is that team and the drivers know it.
Everyone knows why Hamilton did what he did, and most people cannot blame him for it, but to suggest the team should not interfere when their interests are getting the cars 1 & 2 also doesn't know F1,
Originally Posted by skinj:
“they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?”
“they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?”
Hamilton was the faster driver of the two. However, if Hamilton had been in another team, Rosberg would have won by a landslide. The number of 1 - 2 poles and 1 - 2 finishes demonstrates that other cars didn't come close. Mercedes were (comparatively speaking) coasting through many of the races.
It would have been fun seeing a naturally talented and fast driver such as Hamilton in an inferior car to see how well he'd do, but there's no way he'd have been a serious contender for the title.
Originally Posted by skinj:
“If you're that bothered send him an email”
“If you're that bothered send him an email”
It is you that's calling Nigel Mansell a liar so why do you not confront him personally through his twitter account and see if you are tested for making a libellous accusation. It is easy to make such accusations behind peoples back maybe try and be a bit braver and say it to their face.
Originally Posted by skinj:
“they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?”
“they also invested a huge amount of money the have the best drivers. They decided that Hamilton is one of them alongside Rosberg. If at the point where its only the WDC to race for, the team won;t let the drivers race, why would the top drivers go there knowing they'll be hung out to dry?
The state they will not interfere with the outcome and then do everything they can to interfere with the outcome having already secured for the team, with the skill of the drivers being a crucial ingredient, every award going for the season.
If Rosberg was no.1 driver with someone else backing him up, do you honestly think Merc would have been as dominant?”
The manufacturer doesn't think that way, they issued warnings to both drivers earlier in the season that the brand is very important. If Hamilton doesn't agree with Mercedes protocol and doesn't want to abide by the rules they lay down then he is free to move to another team. I would bet that one of 6 drivers on the grid in the same Mercedes car over the last three seasons would have won the championship.
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae:
“Hamilton was the faster driver of the two. However, if Hamilton had been in another team, Rosberg would have won by a landslide. The number of 1 - 2 poles and 1 - 2 finishes demonstrates that other cars didn't come close. Mercedes were (comparatively speaking) coasting through many of the races.
It would have been fun seeing a naturally talented and fast driver such as Hamilton in an inferior car to see how well he'd do, but there's no way he'd have been a serious contender for the title.”
“Hamilton was the faster driver of the two. However, if Hamilton had been in another team, Rosberg would have won by a landslide. The number of 1 - 2 poles and 1 - 2 finishes demonstrates that other cars didn't come close. Mercedes were (comparatively speaking) coasting through many of the races.
It would have been fun seeing a naturally talented and fast driver such as Hamilton in an inferior car to see how well he'd do, but there's no way he'd have been a serious contender for the title.”
I think it would be more fun if Mercedes had LH & Max, then we would really see Lewis throw his toys out the pram.
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“I think it would be more fun if Mercedes had LH & Max, then we would really see Lewis throw his toys out the pram.”
“I think it would be more fun if Mercedes had LH & Max, then we would really see Lewis throw his toys out the pram.”
I'd expect quite a few 2 car DNFs
Originally Posted by d'@ve:
“True but after being a top 5 driver in F1 for 5 consecutive seasons including one championship - Mercedes knew exactly what they were getting - probably the fastest driver in F1 albeit not then having the fastest team. Would Mercedes have had the same level of dominance with Rosberg and someone else is an interesting question. The answer isn't clear cut but presumably, it was to Mercedes.”
“True but after being a top 5 driver in F1 for 5 consecutive seasons including one championship - Mercedes knew exactly what they were getting - probably the fastest driver in F1 albeit not then having the fastest team. Would Mercedes have had the same level of dominance with Rosberg and someone else is an interesting question. The answer isn't clear cut but presumably, it was to Mercedes.”
I don't think Mercedes had too many options as Vettel was under contract to Red Bull and Ferrari was always on the cards, Alonso was tied to McClaren, Riccardo was new to FI and there is no doubt that Hamilton was the best driver available even if others were available Hamilton may still edge them even in the same car. However as Rosberg has shown put Alonso, Vettel, Riccardo even Verstappen in the Mercedes and I think any one of them would have won the championship over the last three seasons. I don't think even though I think Hamilton is one of the very best drivers around even he couldn't have won in another car on the grid.
FI is really down to who provides the best car and has been for sometime. I do think however that Red Bull will make significant challenge again and I also expect Ferrari to be closer but not quite on top so I think we will see at least six drivers swapping places on the podium almost every other race.
Quote:
“Pushing Rosberg off the track would have been a dirty manoeuvre though wouldn't it?
If he had done that his reputation (as a driver not a person) would have taken a big hit. Plus I get the impression that Rosberg was never going to try himself to overtake.”
“Pushing Rosberg off the track would have been a dirty manoeuvre though wouldn't it?
If he had done that his reputation (as a driver not a person) would have taken a big hit. Plus I get the impression that Rosberg was never going to try himself to overtake.”
I don't think it would change that many people's opinion. We all saw what hamilton did to win the WDC last year.
Hamilton's persecution complex is so tiresome, especially from someone who has won so much and who will win so much more.
It reminds me of Mourinho at Chelsea. Even when they were winning everything, he was constantly alluding to conspiracy theories and saying that the world was against him.
It reminds me of Mourinho at Chelsea. Even when they were winning everything, he was constantly alluding to conspiracy theories and saying that the world was against him.
Originally Posted by ACU:
“I am calling BS on this. He was probably told you should not be trying to pass on the outside. The Spain accident was Hamiltons fault. He was very lucky he was able to collect Rosberg, Otherwise Rosberg would have been a further 25 points ahead.
You got a source, for your version of the story?”
“I am calling BS on this. He was probably told you should not be trying to pass on the outside. The Spain accident was Hamiltons fault. He was very lucky he was able to collect Rosberg, Otherwise Rosberg would have been a further 25 points ahead.
You got a source, for your version of the story?”
Re: the Spanish GP ,The stewards deemed it a racing incident and decided Hamilton had been justified in his attempt as he was 17 km/h quicker than Rosberg coming out of Turn 3.
Whereas in a similar incident of Rosberg closing the door in the the Austrian GP, The stewards blamed Rosberg for the incident, issuing him two penalty points for failing to allow "racing room" and causing a collision.
Does anyone here know whats going to happen to Lewis when he meets his bosses in the next few days as by the reaction of Niki Lauda after the race, i dont think they are going to be too happy with him when he could have stopped Mercedes getting a one two finish just because he wanted to win the World title
Well i think for now it will blow over. In a years time when he is out of contract Mercedes will be thinking it's time for a change of driver. Not sure who else will be available but Mercedes will do a bit of ground work to get their man out of contract.
Could be Alonso and with Ron out of Mclaren then an arrangement appears more likely with nobody running McLaren who is stubborn and obstinate to other teams just because.
Could be Alonso and with Ron out of Mclaren then an arrangement appears more likely with nobody running McLaren who is stubborn and obstinate to other teams just because.
Originally Posted by owen10:
“Does anyone here know whats going to happen to Lewis when he meets his bosses in the next few days as by the reaction of Niki Lauda after the race, i dont think they are going to be too happy with him when he could have stopped Mercedes getting a one two finish just because he wanted to win the World title”
“Does anyone here know whats going to happen to Lewis when he meets his bosses in the next few days as by the reaction of Niki Lauda after the race, i dont think they are going to be too happy with him when he could have stopped Mercedes getting a one two finish just because he wanted to win the World title”
Toto Wolff, in a post race interview, was clearly understanding of Lewis's actions.
I can't see them doing much beyond reminding him of his responsibilities, much like they did to both drivers earlier in the season. He is still a very competitive driver, and, for the moment, Mercedes will consider it better to have him in their team than for him to be in another one, especially as we are about to change the regulations.
If Mercedes were to go into next season with the car advantage that they had this season, then they wouldn't really need Lewis, but all bets are off with the unknown quantities of next year's cars, so they want the best drivers.
If the Championship is a lot closer, with more competitive teams, then it wil be interesting to see if Mercedes will still allow their drivers to compete against each other. Once Mercedes are no longer so dominant, they cannot afford for their drivers to take each other off.
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae:
“Toto Wolff, in a post race interview, was clearly understanding of Lewis's actions.
I can't see them doing much beyond reminding him of his responsibilities, much like they did to both drivers earlier in the season. He is still a very competitive driver, and, for the moment, Mercedes will consider it better to have him in their team than for him to be in another one, especially as we are about to change the regulations.
If Mercedes were to go into next season with the car advantage that they had this season, then they wouldn't really need Lewis, but all bets are off with the unknown quantities of next year's cars, so they want the best drivers.
If the Championship is a lot closer, with more competitive teams, then it wil be interesting to see if Mercedes will still allow their drivers to compete against each other. Once Mercedes are no longer so dominant, they cannot afford for their drivers to take each other off.”
“Toto Wolff, in a post race interview, was clearly understanding of Lewis's actions.
I can't see them doing much beyond reminding him of his responsibilities, much like they did to both drivers earlier in the season. He is still a very competitive driver, and, for the moment, Mercedes will consider it better to have him in their team than for him to be in another one, especially as we are about to change the regulations.
If Mercedes were to go into next season with the car advantage that they had this season, then they wouldn't really need Lewis, but all bets are off with the unknown quantities of next year's cars, so they want the best drivers.
If the Championship is a lot closer, with more competitive teams, then it wil be interesting to see if Mercedes will still allow their drivers to compete against each other. Once Mercedes are no longer so dominant, they cannot afford for their drivers to take each other off.”
Sorry for invading your thread again
I was talking about this to a friend of mine last night and we both felt that Mercedes, and Wolff, would have to be seen to be doing something rather than just giving him a talking to because of how he's publicly put himself before the team and disobeyed team orders.
Also, with Wolff saying how much he prides himself on the structure and values of his company and how Hamilton has undermined those in public.
We both felt that a possible outcome would be a one race suspension and fine. A fine on it's own would be meaningless, considering how much he earns, but a one race suspension would be a public enough statement that Hamilton isn't bigger than the team, while not overly affecting his chances of challenging for the title next season.
Originally Posted by skinj:
“He did take the inside line. They came off a right hander and headed towards another right hander. He made a move on the right of Rosberg that Rosberg spotted late and tried to cut off forcing Hamilton on to the grass.”
“He did take the inside line. They came off a right hander and headed towards another right hander. He made a move on the right of Rosberg that Rosberg spotted late and tried to cut off forcing Hamilton on to the grass.”
Rosberg was infront of Hamilton, he was entitlted to take what line he wanted. As for trying to cut of Hamilton, he didnt try - he succeeded.
LIke I said Hamilton was very very lucky in collecting Rosberg.
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“What you seem to be forgetting is Merc wanted 1 & 2 and not bothered in which order the drivers finished as long as they secured 1 & 2, it was about the team...not the drivers.”
“What you seem to be forgetting is Merc wanted 1 & 2 and not bothered in which order the drivers finished as long as they secured 1 & 2, it was about the team...not the drivers.”
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“They wanted 1 & 2, they did not want their car finishing 4th...that is why they made the call. they knew exactly why Lewis was doing it...and had every right to interfere, they are the team, they employ the drivers, the drivers work for the team they don't care about the drivers championship.
Above all for the company is to have their cars finish 1 & 2 as many times as possible, and the staff do as they are employed to do, which is work for the team.”
“They wanted 1 & 2, they did not want their car finishing 4th...that is why they made the call. they knew exactly why Lewis was doing it...and had every right to interfere, they are the team, they employ the drivers, the drivers work for the team they don't care about the drivers championship.
Above all for the company is to have their cars finish 1 & 2 as many times as possible, and the staff do as they are employed to do, which is work for the team.”
Exactly. This was said several times before and after the race by the team. Funny how people seem to want to ignore this and go with their own theories. I wonder if the situation was reversed, would they being saying the same. I doubt it.
Merc are a team of over 1500 people. The driver is just one employee. It is selfish of the driver to do what he wants over the priority of the 1500 odd other employees is selfish. Something Brundle hinted strongly at in commentary. Every time Hamilton says thanks to the team, and you are a great team is worthless. He has shown to be a selfish person, only worried about himself.
He would have done all the calculations before the race, and decided he was going to backup the drivers into Rosberg. It wasnt a spur of the moment. I dont really blame him, but he must have known he would come out of this badly. He chose his reputation over the title. Looks like he miscalculated.
In much the same way, people were up in arms when Vettel ignored the team in the infamous multi-21 situation with Webber. People were saying that he should have obeyed the team, its a team sport etc. I bet some of the same people are now saying its ok to disobey team orders.
Originally Posted by swaydog:
“Re: the Spanish GP ,The stewards deemed it a racing incident and decided Hamilton had been justified in his attempt as he was 17 km/h quicker than Rosberg coming out of Turn 3.
Whereas in a similar incident of Rosberg closing the door in the the Austrian GP, The stewards blamed Rosberg for the incident, issuing him two penalty points for failing to allow "racing room" and causing a collision.”
“Re: the Spanish GP ,The stewards deemed it a racing incident and decided Hamilton had been justified in his attempt as he was 17 km/h quicker than Rosberg coming out of Turn 3.
Whereas in a similar incident of Rosberg closing the door in the the Austrian GP, The stewards blamed Rosberg for the incident, issuing him two penalty points for failing to allow "racing room" and causing a collision.”
I am not saying whose fault it was (if any) etc. All I am saying about the incident is that Hamilton was very very lucky that he collected Rosberg.
Also a smarter driver would have worked out that Rosberg would shut the door, so why not surprise him and go the other way round.
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