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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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gomezz
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by JasonWatkins:
“I was talking about this to a friend of mine last night and we both felt that Mercedes, and Wolff, would have to be seen to be doing something rather than just giving him a talking to because of how he's publicly put himself before the team and disobeyed team orders”

He ignored orders from team members which ran contrary to the pre-agreed team policy of being allowed to race. It was those team members who were out of order.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by ACU:
“In much the same way, people were up in arms when Vettel ignored the team in the infamous multi-21 situation with Webber. People were saying that he should have obeyed the team, its a team sport etc. I bet some of the same people are now saying its ok to disobey team orders. ”

The two situations are not comparable though. At the point of Multi-21 the drivers championships were still very much open and the WCC was no where near decided.
Red Bull were fully justified at that point to use team orders. They order was put in place to ensure a 1-2 finish to gain maximum points in the WCC. The team wanted the drivers to back off, not push the engines & not risk taking each other out of the race.
The 43 points that the team would take from this race was the prime concern that day as it should have been. They had everything to fight for.

Merc had NOTHING to fight for. everything was wrapped up, done & dusted, finished, concluded. They had nothing to gain at all.
If they had used the comms during the race and said "guys, this is all about you now, you need to race against each other" they would have walked away from the race with a massive amount of respect, fantastic publicity for the brand & a general feel good factor.
As it stands they have left the last race with a PR nightmare, a lot of negative publicity, discord from the one of the drivers & probably the mechanics on his side of the garage & am employment decision to make on how to deal with a totally avoidable but obvious breach of team orders.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“Again irrelevant to the team...they want their cars home in 1 & 2, not their employee playing silly buggers and potentially costing the team 1 & 2. At the end of the day, F1 is a team sport, the WDC is not what the teams care about. The teams choose the best drivers in order to get 1 & 2, any driver will want to go to a team that can provide the best chance of winning a WDC, and at the moment Mercedes is that team and the drivers know it.

Everyone knows why Hamilton did what he did, and most people cannot blame him for it, but to suggest the team should not interfere when their interests are getting the cars 1 & 2 also doesn't know F1,”

They had 1 & 2, the WCC was done & dusted.
What have they gained from making the call other than bad publicity?
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae:
“Of course if Rosberg wants to get past he has to drive past. Hamilton was never going to let him past. That was never the issue.

You seem unable to understand that Mercedes still had an interest in the race, even at this stage of the season. That was that they wanted to win the Abu Dhabi GP, ideally as a 1 - 2, and didn't want to put that win at risk because Hamilton was backing up into Rosberg.”

Seriously, what did Merc have to gain by making that order? 1 & 2 in the WDC was guaranteed, the WCC was already sewn up. They gained nothing by making the call to Hamilton except bad press and a pi*sed off driver.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“Everyone knows why Hamilton did what he did, and most people cannot blame him for it, but to suggest the team should not interfere when their interests are getting the cars 1 & 2 also doesn't know F1,”

What interests did they have? The history books & trophy don't have "F1 WCC (by margin of x points and y 1/2 finishes" stamped or printed on them.
The advertising they use having won the WCC doesn't have footnotes about points and driver placings on it, customer goodwill doesn't get better because they have x number of 1/2 finishes in a season.
If the race had been a decider in the result of the WCC then Hamilton should have the book thrown at him by Merc. If it was the decider in whether or not Rosberg won the WDC or Vettell (with Hamilton not being in contention) and Hamilton did the same thing he should have the book thrown at him.
Merc have won nothing by making the order & only created themselves issues & problems.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“I think it would be more fun if Mercedes had LH & Max, then we would really see Lewis throw his toys out the pram.”

He is very good at being a spoilt git!
His attitude after the race was appalling & his dismissive opinions on why he lost, allowing Rosberg to win should have been kept to himself until a later date.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae:
“Hamilton was the faster driver of the two. However, if Hamilton had been in another team, Rosberg would have won by a landslide. The number of 1 - 2 poles and 1 - 2 finishes demonstrates that other cars didn't come close. Mercedes were (comparatively speaking) coasting through many of the races.

It would have been fun seeing a naturally talented and fast driver such as Hamilton in an inferior car to see how well he'd do, but there's no way he'd have been a serious contender for the title.”

Isn't that just Verstappen!
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae:
“Toto Wolff, in a post race interview, was clearly understanding of Lewis's actions.

I can't see them doing much beyond reminding him of his responsibilities, much like they did to both drivers earlier in the season. He is still a very competitive driver, and, for the moment, Mercedes will consider it better to have him in their team than for him to be in another one, especially as we are about to change the regulations.

If Mercedes were to go into next season with the car advantage that they had this season, then they wouldn't really need Lewis, but all bets are off with the unknown quantities of next year's cars, so they want the best drivers.

If the Championship is a lot closer, with more competitive teams, then it wil be interesting to see if Mercedes will still allow their drivers to compete against each other. Once Mercedes are no longer so dominant, they cannot afford for their drivers to take each other off.”

If a similar situation occurs next season or in the future, once the WCC is won & the WDC guaranteed to only drivers from Merc, I'd imagine the team orders would cease if they have a direct effect on the race between the two team mates. It's in everyone's best interest to let the drivers race properly once the WCC is sorted. Yeah there'll be the golden rule of not taking each other off track but that could well be it.
dearmrman
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“They had 1 & 2, the WCC was done & dusted.
What have they gained from making the call other than bad publicity?”

They did, but it was looking like they wouldn't with LH backing the pack up, LH would have been fine & dandy and secured 1st, but the 2nd Mercedes certainly wasn't guaranteed a 2nd place according to the data...the team had no choice but to make the call, due to what the data was telling them.

In the end it all worked out right, but the team had to make the call.
jmclaugh
29-11-2016
Just for interest the teams with the most 1-2 finishes are Ferrari with 81 from 929 starts, McLaren with 47 from 810 starts, Mercedes with 36 from 146 starts and Williams with 33 from 657 starts. Mercedes most 1-2 finishes in a season, a record 12, was achieved in 2015.

So the result of the final 2016 GP made no difference to those standings or that Mercedes won the WCC or that one of it's drivers won the WDC. It could however have made a difference to which driver won the WDC which is why the team should not have interferred.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“They did, but it was looking like they wouldn't with LH backing the pack up, LH would have been fine & dandy and secured 1st, but the 2nd Mercedes certainly wasn't guaranteed a 2nd place according to the data...the team had no choice but to make the call, due to what the data was telling them.

In the end it all worked out right, but the team had to make the call.”

I'm talking about 1st/2nd in the WDC. The WCC was done & dusted, nothing more for the team to win/gain regardless of the finishing positions of Ham/Ros.
Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing. Having a team that lets their drivers properly race when there is nothing for the team to race for would give them so much good publicity (especially compared to the issues they've created for themselves now) it should be a no-brainer.
dearmrman
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“I'm talking about 1st/2nd in the WDC. The WCC was done & dusted, nothing more for the team to win/gain regardless of the finishing positions of Ham/Ros.
Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing. Having a team that lets their drivers properly race when there is nothing for the team to race for would give them so much good publicity (especially compared to the issues they've created for themselves now) it should be a no-brainer.”

It obviously does to Mercedes, and really if you are a team in F1 it should matter, no matter which team is in the paddock I would expect them all to have made the same call, likewise you would also expect all the drivers to have made the same call as Lewis.
dearmrman
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by jmclaugh:
“Just for interest the teams with the most 1-2 finishes are Ferrari with 81 from 929 starts, McLaren with 47 from 810 starts, Mercedes with 36 from 146 starts and Williams with 33 from 657 starts. Mercedes most 1-2 finishes in a season, a record 12, was achieved in 2015.

So the result of the final 2016 GP made no difference to those standings or that Mercedes won the WCC or that one of it's drivers won the WDC. It could however have made a difference to which driver won the WDC which is why the team should not have interferred.”

It could, but the WDC is of no interest to the team...only the drivers & fans. As long as the team cars came home 1 & 2 is what mattered to them, so every right to interfere if the potential was that would not happen.
jmclaugh
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“It could, but the WDC is of no interest to the team...only the drivers & fans. As long as the team cars came home 1 & 2 is what mattered to them, so every right to interfere if the potential was that would not happen.”

That is patently rubbish.

Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“It obviously does to Mercedes, and really if you are a team in F1 it should matter, no matter which team is in the paddock I would expect them all to have made the same call.”

Christian Horner said Mercedes were naive and Hamilton had broken no rules and was fair in what he did and saw no reason to interfere.
Assa2
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“It could, but the WDC is of no interest to the team...only the drivers & fans. As long as the team cars came home 1 & 2 is what mattered to them, so every right to interfere if the potential was that would not happen.”

Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.

If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.

If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice.”

Spot on.
dearmrman
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.

If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice.”

But they were not racing each other, Lewis was clearly backing the pack up, so other teams could race Rosberg...would Christian Horner, Brawn any other team be happy that they could lose position by one of their drivers bringing other teams into play...I doubt it despite what they might say after the event.
ACU
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“The two situations are not comparable though. At the point of Multi-21 the drivers championships were still very much open and the WCC was no where near decided.
Red Bull were fully justified at that point to use team orders. They order was put in place to ensure a 1-2 finish to gain maximum points in the WCC. The team wanted the drivers to back off, not push the engines & not risk taking each other out of the race.
The 43 points that the team would take from this race was the prime concern that day as it should have been. They had everything to fight for.

Merc had NOTHING to fight for. everything was wrapped up, done & dusted, finished, concluded. They had nothing to gain at all.
If they had used the comms during the race and said "guys, this is all about you now, you need to race against each other" they would have walked away from the race with a massive amount of respect, fantastic publicity for the brand & a general feel good factor.
As it stands they have left the last race with a PR nightmare, a lot of negative publicity, discord from the one of the drivers & probably the mechanics on his side of the garage & am employment decision to make on how to deal with a totally avoidable but obvious breach of team orders.”



They are comparable, the team issued an order. You should obey. The scenario is different, but thats not got anything to do with it. You may want it to, but it doesnt.

Its in the drivers (mercs at least) contract (according to sky tv), that the drivers have a clause in their contracts that team orders must be obeyed.

Hamilton blatantly disobeyed team orders. No different from Vettel disobeying team orders.
Eater Sundae
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by dearmrman:
“They did, but it was looking like they wouldn't with LH backing the pack up, LH would have been fine & dandy and secured 1st, but the 2nd Mercedes certainly wasn't guaranteed a 2nd place according to the data...the team had no choice but to make the call, due to what the data was telling them.

In the end it all worked out right, but the team had to make the call.”

Also, by backing up into Nico he was increasing the chance of something going wrong, and Mercedes colliding with each other and/or vettel.
Eater Sundae
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“I'm talking about 1st/2nd in the WDC. The WCC was done & dusted, nothing more for the team to win/gain regardless of the finishing positions of Ham/Ros.
Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing. Having a team that lets their drivers properly race when there is nothing for the team to race for would give them so much good publicity (especially compared to the issues they've created for themselves now) it should be a no-brainer.”

It wouldn't have been very good publicity if they had taken each other out.
Eater Sundae
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.

If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice.”

They were reninding him that 3rd place was OK so that he wouldn't have a rush of blood to the head and defend at all costs, at the risk of a crash.
Smiley433
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing.”

Points at the end of the season means more prize money and less prize money to the opposition. Not much in this particular case, however.

Plus there's the record books.
skinj
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae:
“It wouldn't have been very good publicity if they had taken each other out.”

Would have been great publicity!
Everyone talking about how dominant Mercedes have been this season that they were able to their drivers battle it out in the final race to decide the drivers championship.
A team willing to let their drivers properly race to conclude a season of Mercedes prowess.
A team that can win the WDC, the WCC & get 2nd in the WDC even though they have lost 86 points through inter-team rivalry.

What do they have now. A staffing issue whereby they might have to sanction the best driver in their team, a split public perception where some think they should have butted out of the race totally, some now convinced that there was an agenda against Hamilton & many convinced they don't know how to deal with their drivers properly.
dearmrman
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“Would have been great publicity!
Everyone talking about how dominant Mercedes have been this season that they were able to their drivers battle it out in the final race to decide the drivers championship.
A team willing to let their drivers properly race to conclude a season of Mercedes prowess.
A team that can win the WDC, the WCC & get 2nd in the WDC even though they have lost 86 points through inter-team rivalry.

What do they have now. A staffing issue whereby they might have to sanction the best driver in their team, a split public perception where some think they should have butted out of the race totally, some now convinced that there was an agenda against Hamilton & many convinced they don't know how to deal with their drivers properly.”

They did...but Lewis wasn't properly racing he was.slowing down and he certainly had no interest in racing his teammate, he wanted others to race Rosberg.
Eater Sundae
29-11-2016
Originally Posted by skinj:
“Would have been great publicity!
Everyone talking about how dominant Mercedes have been this season that they were able to their drivers battle it out in the final race to decide the drivers championship.
A team willing to let their drivers properly race to conclude a season of Mercedes prowess.
A team that can win the WDC, the WCC & get 2nd in the WDC even though they have lost 86 points through inter-team rivalry.

What do they have now. A staffing issue whereby they might have to sanction the best driver in their team, a split public perception where some think they should have butted out of the race totally, some now convinced that there was an agenda against Hamilton & many convinced they don't know how to deal with their drivers properly.”

What they would have had was an image that Mercedes couldn't organise a party with alcoholic drinks in a place that makes alcoholic drinks.

The image that Mercedes wants in a state such as Abu Dhabi (or anywhere for that matter) is one of flawless German efficiency, able to out engineer and out plan all competition.

They also want that image on the front page of local newspapers and the news headlines, as Mercedes take an emphatic 1-2 victory. They do not want to see pictures showing bits of Mercedes coloured carbon fibre being sprayed around because it's drivers are the weak link in the team.
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