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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8) |
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#9551 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Buckingham
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Quote:
I was talking about this to a friend of mine last night and we both felt that Mercedes, and Wolff, would have to be seen to be doing something rather than just giving him a talking to because of how he's publicly put himself before the team and disobeyed team orders
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#9552 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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Quote:
In much the same way, people were up in arms when Vettel ignored the team in the infamous multi-21 situation with Webber. People were saying that he should have obeyed the team, its a team sport etc. I bet some of the same people are now saying its ok to disobey team orders.
![]() Red Bull were fully justified at that point to use team orders. They order was put in place to ensure a 1-2 finish to gain maximum points in the WCC. The team wanted the drivers to back off, not push the engines & not risk taking each other out of the race. The 43 points that the team would take from this race was the prime concern that day as it should have been. They had everything to fight for. Merc had NOTHING to fight for. everything was wrapped up, done & dusted, finished, concluded. They had nothing to gain at all. If they had used the comms during the race and said "guys, this is all about you now, you need to race against each other" they would have walked away from the race with a massive amount of respect, fantastic publicity for the brand & a general feel good factor. As it stands they have left the last race with a PR nightmare, a lot of negative publicity, discord from the one of the drivers & probably the mechanics on his side of the garage & am employment decision to make on how to deal with a totally avoidable but obvious breach of team orders. |
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#9553 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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Again irrelevant to the team...they want their cars home in 1 & 2, not their employee playing silly buggers and potentially costing the team 1 & 2. At the end of the day, F1 is a team sport, the WDC is not what the teams care about. The teams choose the best drivers in order to get 1 & 2, any driver will want to go to a team that can provide the best chance of winning a WDC, and at the moment Mercedes is that team and the drivers know it.
Everyone knows why Hamilton did what he did, and most people cannot blame him for it, but to suggest the team should not interfere when their interests are getting the cars 1 & 2 also doesn't know F1, What have they gained from making the call other than bad publicity? |
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#9554 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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Of course if Rosberg wants to get past he has to drive past. Hamilton was never going to let him past. That was never the issue.
You seem unable to understand that Mercedes still had an interest in the race, even at this stage of the season. That was that they wanted to win the Abu Dhabi GP, ideally as a 1 - 2, and didn't want to put that win at risk because Hamilton was backing up into Rosberg. |
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#9555 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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Everyone knows why Hamilton did what he did, and most people cannot blame him for it, but to suggest the team should not interfere when their interests are getting the cars 1 & 2 also doesn't know F1,
The advertising they use having won the WCC doesn't have footnotes about points and driver placings on it, customer goodwill doesn't get better because they have x number of 1/2 finishes in a season. If the race had been a decider in the result of the WCC then Hamilton should have the book thrown at him by Merc. If it was the decider in whether or not Rosberg won the WDC or Vettell (with Hamilton not being in contention) and Hamilton did the same thing he should have the book thrown at him. Merc have won nothing by making the order & only created themselves issues & problems. |
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#9556 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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I think it would be more fun if Mercedes had LH & Max, then we would really see Lewis throw his toys out the pram.
His attitude after the race was appalling & his dismissive opinions on why he lost, allowing Rosberg to win should have been kept to himself until a later date. |
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#9557 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Hamilton was the faster driver of the two. However, if Hamilton had been in another team, Rosberg would have won by a landslide. The number of 1 - 2 poles and 1 - 2 finishes demonstrates that other cars didn't come close. Mercedes were (comparatively speaking) coasting through many of the races.
It would have been fun seeing a naturally talented and fast driver such as Hamilton in an inferior car to see how well he'd do, but there's no way he'd have been a serious contender for the title.
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#9558 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Toto Wolff, in a post race interview, was clearly understanding of Lewis's actions.
I can't see them doing much beyond reminding him of his responsibilities, much like they did to both drivers earlier in the season. He is still a very competitive driver, and, for the moment, Mercedes will consider it better to have him in their team than for him to be in another one, especially as we are about to change the regulations. If Mercedes were to go into next season with the car advantage that they had this season, then they wouldn't really need Lewis, but all bets are off with the unknown quantities of next year's cars, so they want the best drivers. If the Championship is a lot closer, with more competitive teams, then it wil be interesting to see if Mercedes will still allow their drivers to compete against each other. Once Mercedes are no longer so dominant, they cannot afford for their drivers to take each other off. |
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#9559 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Utopia
Posts: 10,166
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They had 1 & 2, the WCC was done & dusted.
What have they gained from making the call other than bad publicity? In the end it all worked out right, but the team had to make the call. |
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#9560 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 48,013
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Just for interest the teams with the most 1-2 finishes are Ferrari with 81 from 929 starts, McLaren with 47 from 810 starts, Mercedes with 36 from 146 starts and Williams with 33 from 657 starts. Mercedes most 1-2 finishes in a season, a record 12, was achieved in 2015.
So the result of the final 2016 GP made no difference to those standings or that Mercedes won the WCC or that one of it's drivers won the WDC. It could however have made a difference to which driver won the WDC which is why the team should not have interferred. |
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#9561 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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They did, but it was looking like they wouldn't with LH backing the pack up, LH would have been fine & dandy and secured 1st, but the 2nd Mercedes certainly wasn't guaranteed a 2nd place according to the data...the team had no choice but to make the call, due to what the data was telling them.
In the end it all worked out right, but the team had to make the call. Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing. Having a team that lets their drivers properly race when there is nothing for the team to race for would give them so much good publicity (especially compared to the issues they've created for themselves now) it should be a no-brainer. |
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#9562 |
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I'm talking about 1st/2nd in the WDC. The WCC was done & dusted, nothing more for the team to win/gain regardless of the finishing positions of Ham/Ros.
Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing. Having a team that lets their drivers properly race when there is nothing for the team to race for would give them so much good publicity (especially compared to the issues they've created for themselves now) it should be a no-brainer. |
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#9563 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Utopia
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Just for interest the teams with the most 1-2 finishes are Ferrari with 81 from 929 starts, McLaren with 47 from 810 starts, Mercedes with 36 from 146 starts and Williams with 33 from 657 starts. Mercedes most 1-2 finishes in a season, a record 12, was achieved in 2015.
So the result of the final 2016 GP made no difference to those standings or that Mercedes won the WCC or that one of it's drivers won the WDC. It could however have made a difference to which driver won the WDC which is why the team should not have interferred. |
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#9564 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 48,013
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It could, but the WDC is of no interest to the team...only the drivers & fans. As long as the team cars came home 1 & 2 is what mattered to them, so every right to interfere if the potential was that would not happen.
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It obviously does to Mercedes, and really if you are a team in F1 it should matter, no matter which team is in the paddock I would expect them all to have made the same call.
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#9565 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Solihull
Posts: 7,274
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It could, but the WDC is of no interest to the team...only the drivers & fans. As long as the team cars came home 1 & 2 is what mattered to them, so every right to interfere if the potential was that would not happen.
If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice. |
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#9566 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.
If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice. |
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#9567 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Utopia
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Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.
If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice. |
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#9568 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,916
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The two situations are not comparable though. At the point of Multi-21 the drivers championships were still very much open and the WCC was no where near decided.
Red Bull were fully justified at that point to use team orders. They order was put in place to ensure a 1-2 finish to gain maximum points in the WCC. The team wanted the drivers to back off, not push the engines & not risk taking each other out of the race. The 43 points that the team would take from this race was the prime concern that day as it should have been. They had everything to fight for. Merc had NOTHING to fight for. everything was wrapped up, done & dusted, finished, concluded. They had nothing to gain at all. If they had used the comms during the race and said "guys, this is all about you now, you need to race against each other" they would have walked away from the race with a massive amount of respect, fantastic publicity for the brand & a general feel good factor. As it stands they have left the last race with a PR nightmare, a lot of negative publicity, discord from the one of the drivers & probably the mechanics on his side of the garage & am employment decision to make on how to deal with a totally avoidable but obvious breach of team orders. ![]() ![]() They are comparable, the team issued an order. You should obey. The scenario is different, but thats not got anything to do with it. You may want it to, but it doesnt. Its in the drivers (mercs at least) contract (according to sky tv), that the drivers have a clause in their contracts that team orders must be obeyed. Hamilton blatantly disobeyed team orders. No different from Vettel disobeying team orders. |
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#9569 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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Quote:
They did, but it was looking like they wouldn't with LH backing the pack up, LH would have been fine & dandy and secured 1st, but the 2nd Mercedes certainly wasn't guaranteed a 2nd place according to the data...the team had no choice but to make the call, due to what the data was telling them.
In the end it all worked out right, but the team had to make the call. |
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#9570 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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I'm talking about 1st/2nd in the WDC. The WCC was done & dusted, nothing more for the team to win/gain regardless of the finishing positions of Ham/Ros.
Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing. Having a team that lets their drivers properly race when there is nothing for the team to race for would give them so much good publicity (especially compared to the issues they've created for themselves now) it should be a no-brainer. |
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#9571 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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Put it this way, if Brawn were still in charge of Mercedes, or if it had been Red Bull in that position, the drivers would have been allowed to race each other free from team interference. Looking further down the field Force India went into the race still defending 4th in the CC against Williams. They had much more to lose by letting their drivers race each other but that's precisely what they did.
If Mercedes were so worried about their precious 1-2 finish then why, towards the end, were they reminding Rosberg that he only needed third to win the DC? I suspect the truth is Mercedes decided before the weekend that Rosberg winning the title was their prefered outcome and did everything they could to ensure that. A 'safe' final race with a predetermined result was more important to Mercedes than an exciting climax to the season gving F1 a bit of a boost after another rather dull year. Thankfully not everyone got the memo, or at least took notice. |
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#9572 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Posts: 4,214
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Having the most 1-2 finishes means nothing.
Plus there's the record books. |
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#9573 |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,198
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It wouldn't have been very good publicity if they had taken each other out.
Everyone talking about how dominant Mercedes have been this season that they were able to their drivers battle it out in the final race to decide the drivers championship. A team willing to let their drivers properly race to conclude a season of Mercedes prowess. A team that can win the WDC, the WCC & get 2nd in the WDC even though they have lost 86 points through inter-team rivalry. What do they have now. A staffing issue whereby they might have to sanction the best driver in their team, a split public perception where some think they should have butted out of the race totally, some now convinced that there was an agenda against Hamilton & many convinced they don't know how to deal with their drivers properly. |
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#9574 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Utopia
Posts: 10,166
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Would have been great publicity!
Everyone talking about how dominant Mercedes have been this season that they were able to their drivers battle it out in the final race to decide the drivers championship. A team willing to let their drivers properly race to conclude a season of Mercedes prowess. A team that can win the WDC, the WCC & get 2nd in the WDC even though they have lost 86 points through inter-team rivalry. What do they have now. A staffing issue whereby they might have to sanction the best driver in their team, a split public perception where some think they should have butted out of the race totally, some now convinced that there was an agenda against Hamilton & many convinced they don't know how to deal with their drivers properly. |
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#9575 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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Quote:
Would have been great publicity!
Everyone talking about how dominant Mercedes have been this season that they were able to their drivers battle it out in the final race to decide the drivers championship. A team willing to let their drivers properly race to conclude a season of Mercedes prowess. A team that can win the WDC, the WCC & get 2nd in the WDC even though they have lost 86 points through inter-team rivalry. What do they have now. A staffing issue whereby they might have to sanction the best driver in their team, a split public perception where some think they should have butted out of the race totally, some now convinced that there was an agenda against Hamilton & many convinced they don't know how to deal with their drivers properly. The image that Mercedes wants in a state such as Abu Dhabi (or anywhere for that matter) is one of flawless German efficiency, able to out engineer and out plan all competition. They also want that image on the front page of local newspapers and the news headlines, as Mercedes take an emphatic 1-2 victory. They do not want to see pictures showing bits of Mercedes coloured carbon fibre being sprayed around because it's drivers are the weak link in the team. |
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