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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)


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Old 29-11-2012, 12:51
Pendragon579
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Surely they can verify if there was a green flag on Lap 4 from other cars' cameras and/or the trackside camera shots. If it's hard to see from Vettel's on-board camera then doesn't that suggest it would have been difficult to see from Vettel's POV in which case he shouldn't have gone by the fact the flag was there on Lap 3 and followed the lights. I've no doubt Vettel will keep the title but it does sour the result somewhat. Ferrari can't really win either way.
"FIA sources have confirmed to AUTOSPORT that the yellow-flag sector at Interlagos started at the light panel just before Turn 3, at marshal sector 3, and ends about 150m before Turn 4, where a green light panel is displayed.

However, there is a marshal's post in between these two panels and a green flag was being waved there on that lap.

Under the FIA's rules for the Brazilian GP, if a green flag is displayed before a green light - as it was in Vettel's case - it is the first green that counts.

Therefore, the FIA is in no doubt that Vettel's pass was legitimate, which is why race control was not informed of any potential infringement."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

So the FIA have apparently verified that there was indeed a green flag being waved at the marshall's post on the required lap. So that SHOULD be the end of things
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Old 29-11-2012, 12:52
indiana44
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Surely they can verify if there was a green flag on Lap 4 from other cars' cameras and/or the trackside camera shots. If it's hard to see from Vettel's on-board camera then doesn't that suggest it would have been difficult to see from Vettel's POV in which case he shouldn't have gone by the fact the flag was there on Lap 3 and followed the lights. I've no doubt Vettel will keep the title but it does sour the result somewhat. Ferrari can't really win either way.
So you are saying that even if the flag on lap 4 was green that you have doubts if Vettel would really have seen that ( though what's the point of a flag that can't be seen ) so he should have waited until the green light.

So maybe even if it was a green flag, we should punish him for some sort of assumption that he maybe wouldn't have been aware it was a green flag.

That's brilliant
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Old 29-11-2012, 13:23
Si_Crewe
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Surely they can verify if there was a green flag on Lap 4 from other cars' cameras and/or the trackside camera shots. If it's hard to see from Vettel's on-board camera then doesn't that suggest it would have been difficult to see from Vettel's POV in which case he shouldn't have gone by the fact the flag was there on Lap 3 and followed the lights. I've no doubt Vettel will keep the title but it does sour the result somewhat. Ferrari can't really win either way.
Not really.

If that were the case it'd require that after a yellow flag somebody would have to continue to wave a green flag at that point for the remainder of the race.

If Vettel saw the green flag on lap 3, no flag on lap 4 and the green light up ahead I think it's pretty fair for him to assume the track is clear as there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
And that's assuming there wasn't actually a green flag on lap 4, which there may have been.

The only thing that sours the result and puts Ferrari in a "no win" position is their "win in court" attitude.
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:00
zieler
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Not really.

If that were the case it'd require that after a yellow flag somebody would have to continue to wave a green flag at that point for the remainder of the race.

If Vettel saw the green flag on lap 3, no flag on lap 4 and the green light up ahead I think it's pretty fair for him to assume the track is clear as there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
And that's assuming there wasn't actually a green flag on lap 4, which there may have been.

The only thing that sours the result and puts Ferrari in a "no win" position is their "win in court" attitude.
In fairness to Ferrari (don't like writing that ) they aren't the first to appeal a title-winning decision, Mclaren did in 2007.
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:06
Eater Sundae
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Talk Sport have just said "The FIA says there is no case (for vettel) to answer". They did not name a particular FIA official, and it didn't particularly sound like a formal FIA statement, so still not sure, but that is what they said.
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:11
Eater Sundae
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Not really.

If that were the case it'd require that after a yellow flag somebody would have to continue to wave a green flag at that point for the remainder of the race.

If Vettel saw the green flag on lap 3, no flag on lap 4 and the green light up ahead I think it's pretty fair for him to assume the track is clear as there's nothing to suggest otherwise.And that's assuming there wasn't actually a green flag on lap 4, which there may have been.

The only thing that sours the result and puts Ferrari in a "no win" position is their "win in court" attitude.
Re BIB. No, that wouldn't be reasonable. He has passed a yellow signal. That applies until he passes a green signal. If the flag is no longer there, then he must wait until he reaches the yellow lights.
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:18
Si_Crewe
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In fairness to Ferrari (don't like writing that ) they aren't the first to appeal a title-winning decision, Mclaren did in 2007.
True enough.
I recall thinking, in 2007, that Raikkonen had pretty-much stolen the WDC from McLaren while they were busy fighting with each other and that, specifically, If McLaren had brought Lewis in for tyres when he asked for them in China things might have been different.

Point being that after a bunch of in-house cock-ups it seemed rather silly to try and moan about the result afterwards.

Re BIB. No, that wouldn't be reasonable. He has passed a yellow signal. That applies until he passes a green signal. If the flag is no longer there, then he must wait until he reaches the yellow lights.
Fair comment.

As I said though, that's assuming there wasn't actually a green flag there for Vettel to see, which it now seems there definitely was.
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:28
Caro07
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Surely they can verify if there was a green flag on Lap 4 from other cars' cameras and/or the trackside camera shots. If it's hard to see from Vettel's on-board camera then doesn't that suggest it would have been difficult to see from Vettel's POV in which case he shouldn't have gone by the fact the flag was there on Lap 3 and followed the lights. I've no doubt Vettel will keep the title but it does sour the result somewhat. Ferrari can't really win either way.
What we've been looking at was a blurred (by rain) image with large pixels, that is why the flag is difficult to see.

Flags have been used since the begining of the sport, if it was not possible for the drivers to see them I think somebody would have worked it out before now!

And while people in internetland are playing around with blurred images all the FIA have to do is go to the Marshal himself and ask if he was waving a green flag. And judging by their comments that's what they've done.

Nothing sours Vettel's win because he didn't do anything wrong.
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:37
Pendragon579
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What we've been looking at was a blurred (by rain) image with large pixels, that is why the flag is difficult to see.

Flags have been used since the begining of the sport, if it was not possible for the drivers to see them I think somebody would have worked it out before now!

And while people in internetland are playing around with blurred images all the FIA have to do is go to the Marshal himself and ask if he was waving a green flag. And judging by their comments that's what they've done.

Nothing sours Vettel's win because he didn't do anything wrong.
This >
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Old 29-11-2012, 16:43
AxeVictim
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From the BBC website.

" FORMULA 1 1155: The FIA confirm there is "no case to answer" with regard to a move made by world champion Sebastian Vettel on Jean-Eric Vergne during Sunday's Brazilian Grand Prix.Questions were raised after Ferrari - the team of Fernando Alonso - were "evaluating footage" that appears to show Red Bull's Vettel making an illegal overtaking move.The FIA, as well as race director Charlie Whiting, have now made it clear the overtake was legitimate and that no action will be taken."
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Old 29-11-2012, 16:51
indiana44
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Will we now get "regret" from Ferrari at casting such aspersions on Vettel's title win ?
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Old 29-11-2012, 17:40
gomezz
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More the point will we get any remorse from Sky for casting aspersions on the competence or integrity of the marshals and race direction?
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Old 29-11-2012, 18:26
Lucidia2011
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How the **** did this even become an issue, no less a story?
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Old 29-11-2012, 18:46
Si_Crewe
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How the **** did this even become an issue, no less a story?
Comments such as those made by Alonso probably helped.
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Old 29-11-2012, 23:34
jenzie
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ferrari are becoming a JOKE with this, aren't they?

and didn't they try this before, and lost?
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Old 29-11-2012, 23:41
zieler
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ferrari are becoming a JOKE with this, aren't they?

and didn't they try this before, and lost?
Don't remember Ferrari appealing a title-winning decision, as I posted earlier I do remember Mclaren appealing in 2007 (on even less evidence than this one)
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Old 29-11-2012, 23:46
Mythica
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ferrari are becoming a JOKE with this, aren't they?

and didn't they try this before, and lost?
I'm not really up to scratch on this, but surely if they thought as others did at the same time, that Vettel had overtaking under yellows, then surely and rightfully, he should be punished. This isn't just a result either but probably worth millons of pounds in sponserships and what not.
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Old 30-11-2012, 05:31
TheToonArmy
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Don't remember Ferrari appealing a title-winning decision, as I posted earlier I do remember Mclaren appealing in 2007 (on even less evidence than this one)
Yes, Mclaren did appeal in 2006.

Think there was more evidence though, at least the stewards found some actaul irregularities in the fuel.

the evidence was that 3 cars fuel temperature tested below the 10 degrees c limit of the ambient track temperature.

Cooler fuel will give the car a performance advantage over the first few laps.

The stewards however chose to not impose any penalty.
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Old 30-11-2012, 07:41
Assa2
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Not really.

If that were the case it'd require that after a yellow flag somebody would have to continue to wave a green flag at that point for the remainder of the race.

If Vettel saw the green flag on lap 3, no flag on lap 4 and the green light up ahead I think it's pretty fair for him to assume the track is clear as there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
And that's assuming there wasn't actually a green flag on lap 4, which there may have been.

The only thing that sours the result and puts Ferrari in a "no win" position is their "win in court" attitude.
The point is if there really wasn't a green flag on lap 4 then he couldn't pass until after the green light. According to the FIA there was a green flag, so there is no issue. However I do ask why it was so difficult to verify if the green flag was still there on Lap 4. It should be obvious, that's it's whole point. I don't think I've seen any conclusive evidence of a green flag on lap 4. Even if the stewards and FIA say it's all OK, what are they basing their assessment on? The say-so of the marshall in question? Is he likely to admit after the race he stopped waving the falg after lap 3?

Ferrari didn't have a 'win in court' attitude. They didn't lodge a complaint or challenge the result. They merely sought clarification based on evidence shown by the media. Frankly they shouldn't have needed to as the FIA is duty-bound to investigate any potential irregularities according to it's own regulations. There was clearly a question mark over Vettel's pass on Lap 4 and the FIA should have addressed that without any team forcing them to.

In any case it seems the case closed so we move on now to next season.
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Old 30-11-2012, 12:28
Si_Crewe
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Yes, Mclaren did appeal in 2006.

Think there was more evidence though, at least the stewards found some actaul irregularities in the fuel.

the evidence was that 3 cars fuel temperature tested below the 10 degrees c limit of the ambient track temperature.

Cooler fuel will give the car a performance advantage over the first few laps.

The stewards however chose to not impose any penalty.
I seem to recall at the end of one year, during the Schumacher era, it was also admitted that the Ferrari sidepods were designed in such a way that they generated ground-effect but, again, it was decided that no action should be taken.

In those days, I think there was a lot of truth to the whole "other FIA" criticisms.
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Old 30-11-2012, 13:37
TheToonArmy
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I seem to recall at the end of one year, during the Schumacher era, it was also admitted that the Ferrari sidepods were designed in such a way that they generated ground-effect but, again, it was decided that no action should be taken.

In those days, I think there was a lot of truth to the whole "other FIA" criticisms.
My post should read 2007, mistype.

Just out of interest

In 2007, after the first race which ferrari won.

Were they using something on the car that the FIA banned straight afterwards.

I have read 2 articles which mentioned it but no details on what they were using. I cannot find anything on the usual sites and I cannot remember
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Old 30-11-2012, 14:15
Jen-B
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The point is if there really wasn't a green flag on lap 4 then he couldn't pass until after the green light. According to the FIA there was a green flag, so there is no issue. However I do ask why it was so difficult to verify if the green flag was still there on Lap 4. It should be obvious, that's it's whole point. I don't think I've seen any conclusive evidence of a green flag on lap 4. Even if the stewards and FIA say it's all OK, what are they basing their assessment on? The say-so of the marshall in question? Is he likely to admit after the race he stopped waving the falg after lap 3?

Ferrari didn't have a 'win in court' attitude. They didn't lodge a complaint or challenge the result. They merely sought clarification based on evidence shown by the media. Frankly they shouldn't have needed to as the FIA is duty-bound to investigate any potential irregularities according to it's own regulations. There was clearly a question mark over Vettel's pass on Lap 4 and the FIA should have addressed that without any team forcing them to.

In any case it seems the case closed so we move on now to next season.
There was no question mark over it at all. If you screen shot the onboard you can see a marshal waving a flag, and you can see it's not a yellow one.

These are taken from the Autosport forums:

Pic 1

Pic 2

And this is the Youtube vid they're screen-shot from: here

Once you slow it down, you can see the marshal waving the flag. In the case of lights/physical flags, physical flags take precedence over lights. Marshal waved a green flag, meaning it was ok to overtake, Vettel overtook Verge. Absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. The FIA know where all the marshal posts are and what flag they were waving at what time, coupled with the fact they have GPS and know exactly where each car was at any given time. The FIA have far more information available to them than a grainy rain-strewn video.
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Old 30-11-2012, 17:32
Pendragon579
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There was no question mark over it at all. If you screen shot the onboard you can see a marshal waving a flag, and you can see it's not a yellow one.

These are taken from the Autosport forums:

Pic 1

Pic 2

And this is the Youtube vid they're screen-shot from: here

Once you slow it down, you can see the marshal waving the flag. In the case of lights/physical flags, physical flags take precedence over lights. Marshal waved a green flag, meaning it was ok to overtake, Vettel overtook Verge. Absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. The FIA know where all the marshal posts are and what flag they were waving at what time, coupled with the fact they have GPS and know exactly where each car was at any given time. The FIA have far more information available to them than a grainy rain-strewn video.
Clearly no case to answer for Vettel, [most of] the world moves on... Trouble is some people believe what they want to believe despite the FIA AND Charlie Whiting saying there WAS a green flag. Oh dear...
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Old 30-11-2012, 17:37
Pendragon579
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My post should read 2007, mistype.

Just out of interest

In 2007, after the first race which ferrari won.

Were they using something on the car that the FIA banned straight afterwards.

I have read 2 articles which mentioned it but no details on what they were using. I cannot find anything on the usual sites and I cannot remember
Also 1994 when 'a Benetton junior mechanic' allegedly took out the safety filter from the FIA refuelling rig as this allowed a quicker fuel flow and thus quicker fuel stops.... This only came to light after the Jos Verstappen pit fire in Hockenheim.... Ultimately Benetton should have been out on their ear on the spot but in a season riddled by controversy and tragedy it was obviously a scandal too far for the 'show'...
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Old 07-12-2012, 22:41
SamDude
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Merry Christmas, Kimi Räikkönen Style!
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