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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8) |
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#1276 |
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I can't see how Merc' should be responsible for ensuring that every other team in the paddock has been given the same opportunity.
At worst, they're an unwitting accomplice in Pirelli's actions. Pretty much the only thing they can do is make Pirelli pay to do the same test on all the other teams' current cars I would think. And whether or not that would even work logistically is another thing entirely. |
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#1277 |
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Another boring race for the most part, the most interesting thing is the Merc testing.
Perez, and Sutil made a couple of very good overtakes. But that was about it. Perez's move on Raikkonen was totally stupid by him. Raikonen was aware of Perez of diving up the inside, as he had done it twice before, so he moved further across to block Perez. Perez being the inexperienced driver, thought I have done it twice before I can do it again. He didnt take into account, that there was no room this time. A good thing for him, he stopped, otherwise a drive though type penalty would have been handed out to him. Hamilton threw away 2nd place, he slowed down way to much on the in lap. He would have been better to come and wait for his turn, I would have thought that was the obvious thing to do. A good win for Rosberg, controlled the race from the start, and didnt really make a mistake. A popular winner in the paddock, from what Sky were saying. Vettel will be happy, as he left Monaco with a bigger lead over his rivals. Kimi wasnt happy for obvious reasons, he should have got a lot more points. Alonso, suggested he did the best he could. As for the testing, the rules are quite clear on this matter, you can not test the current car or last years car during the season. You can however test 2011 (and older) car on the current tyres. The Ferrari tests people are taking about, are with an old car, 2011 I believe. So that is legal, and nothing wrong with it all. People saying Ferrari tested, so its ok for Merc are missing the point entirely. Merc are not entirely blameless in this, not by a long way. They knew they could not test with the current car, yet they did. The only thing, for me that would exonerate them, is something in writing to say its ok for them to use the current car for tests. As of yet, they have not produced such a document. However they may well have done, but the FIA have not made it public. However I have a feeling that Merc would have made it public if they had such a document. The FIA may well have given the go ahead, but I have the feeling the FIA gave the go ahead to the testing, assuming that Merc would stick to the rules and use an old car for testing, just like Ferrari. This would also explain the comments made by Horner, that they were offered to test, but declined, saying that using the old car would not benefit them in anyway. At best, Merc have made a major mistake, and given themselves an advantage from the testing. How you solve this problem, I am not sure, as they can not just forget what they learnt from the tests. The only fair option is to disqualify them from the current championship. Very harsh, but is there another option, that would make it fair for all the other teams? If so I am all ears. At worst, Merc, knowingly broke the rules, assumed they would get a fine and offer a public apology. The fine would be worth the data gathered from the tests. In this scenario, I dont think the drivers would have known anything about it, they are blameless. Its the people at the top that would make such a decision, Wolfe, Brawn and Lauda etc. Either way it is a mess. |
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#1278 |
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This is farcical and whatever you think about the testing it is ridiculous to imagine Pirelli would even want to use a car from two seasons ago to try and address a problem they are having with tyres for this season.
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#1279 |
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Horner making a good point today that it is the team entered in to the championship who have the obligation to follow the sporting code and not their tyre supplier. So Mercedes must take the fall for this. Good thing is drivers and team took part in the test equally and so no reason not to have all three of them out of both championships.
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#1280 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
The only fair option is to disqualify them from the current championship. Very harsh, but is there another option, that would make it fair for all the other teams? If so I am all ears.
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Horner making a good point today that it is the team entered in to the championship who have the obligation to follow the sporting code and not their tyre supplier. So Mercedes must take the fall for this. Good thing is drivers and team took part in the test equally and so no reason not to have all three of them out of both championships.
So no, you can't say conclusively that Mercedes must take the fall, and even if they do, Pirelli surely can't be left blameless. And I really despair that people think throwing an entire team out of the championships is a good thing. If it has to happen, then of course it has to happen, but it shouldn't be something to celebrate as it's to the detriment of the competition for the rest of the season, doesn't actually benefit everyone else and will if it happens be caused by something that is murky water, as I don't think anyone would be naive enough to think Mercedes would deliberately risk throwing away their constructors' championship position when they already knew Pirelli were revamping the tyres. |
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#1281 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Another boring race for the most part, the most interesting thing is the Merc testing.
Perez, and Sutil made a couple of very good overtakes. But that was about it. Perez's move on Raikkonen was totally stupid by him. Raikonen was aware of Perez of diving up the inside, as he had done it twice before, so he moved further across to block Perez. Perez being the inexperienced driver, thought I have done it twice before I can do it again. He didnt take into account, that there was no room this time. A good thing for him, he stopped, otherwise a drive though type penalty would have been handed out to him. Hamilton threw away 2nd place, he slowed down way to much on the in lap. He would have been better to come and wait for his turn, I would have thought that was the obvious thing to do. A good win for Rosberg, controlled the race from the start, and didnt really make a mistake. A popular winner in the paddock, from what Sky were saying. Vettel will be happy, as he left Monaco with a bigger lead over his rivals. Kimi wasnt happy for obvious reasons, he should have got a lot more points. Alonso, suggested he did the best he could. As for the testing, the rules are quite clear on this matter, you can not test the current car or last years car during the season. You can however test 2011 (and older) car on the current tyres. The Ferrari tests people are taking about, are with an old car, 2011 I believe. So that is legal, and nothing wrong with it all. People saying Ferrari tested, so its ok for Merc are missing the point entirely. Merc are not entirely blameless in this, not by a long way. They knew they could not test with the current car, yet they did. The only thing, for me that would exonerate them, is something in writing to say its ok for them to use the current car for tests. As of yet, they have not produced such a document. However they may well have done, but the FIA have not made it public. However I have a feeling that Merc would have made it public if they had such a document. The FIA may well have given the go ahead, but I have the feeling the FIA gave the go ahead to the testing, assuming that Merc would stick to the rules and use an old car for testing, just like Ferrari. This would also explain the comments made by Horner, that they were offered to test, but declined, saying that using the old car would not benefit them in anyway. At best, Merc have made a major mistake, and given themselves an advantage from the testing. How you solve this problem, I am not sure, as they can not just forget what they learnt from the tests. The only fair option is to disqualify them from the current championship. Very harsh, but is there another option, that would make it fair for all the other teams? If so I am all ears. At worst, Merc, knowingly broke the rules, assumed they would get a fine and offer a public apology. The fine would be worth the data gathered from the tests. In this scenario, I dont think the drivers would have known anything about it, they are blameless. Its the people at the top that would make such a decision, Wolfe, Brawn and Lauda etc. Either way it is a mess. |
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#1282 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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How long is Pirelli's contract in F1?
Surely this all means they aren't going to be in it next season. |
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#1283 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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How long is Pirelli's contract in F1?
Surely this all means they aren't going to be in it next season. |
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#1284 |
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This is farcical and whatever you think about the testing it is ridiculous to imagine Pirelli would even want to use a car from two seasons ago to try and address a problem they are having with tyres for this season.
For Pirelli to produce a tyre that can last longer, do they need to use a current car? I dont think so. If they did, they should go to the FIA and say give us a car we can use to test our new compounds. Then leave it to the FIA, to find them a car. Alternatively they can put the current tyres on a old car. See how mnay laps it does before they fall of the cliff. Then develop a compound that will last 30% longer on the same car. The theory being that they would also last longer on the current cars. |
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#1285 |
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Of course there's another option - let all the other teams do a one-off test and make Pirelli foot the bill. Everyone seems to want better tyres anyway, so presumably the other teams would rather have more data than simply the removal of Mercedes from the championship, which doesn't really compensate the teams further down the grid at all.
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Allow all other teams to have the same test and don't count the point scored by Mercedes between Spain and whenever the other teams can test (maybe before the British GP?)
However you can imagine that some teams would want to stretch out the when they could test. This ensuring that Merc lose as much points as possible. You would also have to get all the teams to test at the same time. After the British GP sounds the most ideal time. Most teams are based around Silverstone, so would be ideal for most teams. |
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#1286 |
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How long is Pirelli's contract in F1?
Surely this all means they aren't going to be in it next season. Quote:
Agree... they make great calendars but have a feeling Bridgestone will be back soon.
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#1287 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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I know that Pirelli have done exactly what they were asked to do. They were indeed supposed to build a tyre that would degrade quickly to produce more exciting racing.
My question was in regards to the testing issue they have become embroiled in. If it is found that Pirelli were at least part responsible for a test session that contravened the regulations, then surely the FIA won't be too keen on keeping them as the tyre supplier for the sport. |
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#1288 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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A couple of points. The teams have signed up to an agreement, that they can not test this years car or last years car.
Teams are, AFAIK, allowed to run cars for stuff like publicity events etc so I guess Merc' would argue that the tyre test fell into that sort of category. |
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#1289 |
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I know that Pirelli have done exactly what they were asked to do. They were indeed supposed to build a tyre that would degrade quickly to produce more exciting racing.
My question was in regards to the testing issue they have become embroiled in. If it is found that Pirelli were at least part responsible for a test session that contravened the regulations, then surely the FIA won't be too keen on keeping them as the tyre supplier for the sport. Quote:
I suspect that Merc' would argue that they aren't actually testing the car but are simply supplying the car so that Pirelli could test tyres.
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Teams are, AFAIK, allowed to run cars for stuff like publicity events etc so I guess Merc' would argue that the tyre test fell into that sort of category.
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#1290 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Come on Si, there is a massive difference between a publicity event and a test where a team runs a 1000km. You know that as well as me.
The question is how the Pirelli tyre test is defined - it wasn't team testing in season, so it depends on how the regulations and the Pirelli contract are interpreted. |
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#1291 |
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This isn't just about the sporting code though, it's also about a legal contract that Pirelli have. It's far more complex than a simple 'did they break the rules on a plain reading of the text?' question, and it's not just about Mercedes. A contract with a supplier is not relevant to mercedes cheating. An F1 team can't use a 4l engine just because they have a contract for one they would be out the game. Promotional events are strictly limited by the number of kilometres for one thing. Much below 1000 so this does not apply either. |
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#1292 |
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As far as I am aware, Pirelli have not signed up to any regulations. Especially ones that say, you have to use at a car that is two years old. Merc have though. So I am sure Pirelli would argue, we havent broken any rules.
So either Pirelli get the data they need or the rules are observed and no progress is made with sorting out the tyre fiasco. Quote:
I am sure Merc, would have made a long list of excuses before they went ahead with the test. This is subject to them not having a document giving them permission. If they do have such a document, then they have nothing to worry about.
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Come on Si, there is a massive difference between a publicity event and a test where a team runs a 1000km. You know that as well as me.
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#1293 |
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Nope horner is right when it come to Mercedes it is that simple they are competing in the championships and have to so with in the rules.
A contract with a supplier is not relevant to mercedes cheating. An F1 team can't use a 4l engine just because they have a contract for one they would be out the game. Promotional events are strictly limited by the number of kilometres for one thing. Much below 1000 so this does not apply either. The test was for the benefit of all teams, as all teams use Pirellis and they will all benefit from tyres which last longer. |
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#1294 |
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Why did Mercedes need to involved, could they just not have given Pirelli the car to test on their own (maybe with a Mercedes test driver). If it was just for Pirelli to test tyres then really Mercedes did not need to be there.
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#1295 |
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There is rather more to starting up and running a modern F1 car than just putting the key in the ignition.
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#1296 |
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But I am sure Pirelli could have got in independent engineers etc.. who know how to start up and run an F1 car.
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#1297 |
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Not independents who would have the specific knowledge needed of all the systems on this year's Mercedes car.
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#1298 |
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Then in that case, it would have been beneficial to Mercedes as well for test data, and not just for testing tyres.
Seems wrong to me. |
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#1299 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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But I am sure Pirelli could have got in independent engineers etc.. who know how to start up and run an F1 car.
TBH, this seems like one of those occasions where pretty much everybody has dropped the ball in some way or another and now they're all just playing pass the parcel with the blame. Apparently the Pirelli contract specifically states that they're entitled to test using a current car but it seems like it didn't occur to anybody at the FIA that any team which does so is probably going to get some useful data out of it, even if they aren't allowed to monkey around with their car in the process. Thing is, Pirelli are going to need a baseline for their tests so I would imagine that every test is going to be a case of putting a specific quantity of fuel in the car, setting it up in a specific manner, running for a specific number of laps and then seeing what happened to the tyres. I'm sure the Merc' drivers and crew will be able to look at stuff like tyre temperature, slip angles and wheelspin to get some idea of what was going on but they have no real idea what is going on. Seems like the proper course of action would have been to have an FIA rep' there and ensure that Merc' don't get to keep any of the data from that test session. Alas, Napoleon isn't the sort of person who's likely to admit the FIA is ever wrong (unless it'll help Ferrari, of course) so I'm sure he'll be doing his best to absolve the FIA of all blame. |
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#1300 |
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Then in that case, it would have been beneficial to Mercedes as well for test data, and not just for testing tyres.
Seems wrong to me. |
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