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Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 8)
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Si_Crewe
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“No it doesn't Mercedes used the data to optomis their car for the tyres used up to Silverstone not these tyres. They got the benefit at Monaco and the UK.”

Yeah, cos that's certainly more likely than Monaco being a procession and Silverstone being much colder.

In your head, at least.
Ray_Smith
07-07-2013
I think it's time F1 rebranded itself as

The Sebastian Vettel Motorsport Experience

It's very apparent Vettel is going to win another title. The lack of any credible opposition is damaging the sport and makes it look as if one guy in one car is vastly superior to the rest. As for Lewis Hamilton, with all due respect, I assume his F1 world title was more of a fluke than a great measure of his racing 'talent'. Damon Hill seemed a better driver - more in contention points-wise than Hamilton - and yet he never got as much press attention/praise as Hamilton.
TheToonArmy
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Ray_Smith:
“I think it's time F1 rebranded itself as

The Sebastian Vettel Motorsport Experience

It's very apparent Vettel is going to win another title. The lack of any credible opposition is damaging the sport and makes it look as if one guy in one car is vastly superior to the rest. As for Lewis Hamilton, with all due respect, I assume his F1 world title was more of a fluke than a great measure of his racing 'talent'. Damon Hill seemed a better driver - more in contention points-wise than Hamilton - and yet he never got as much press attention/praise as Hamilton.”

Is that you Forza ?

With all due respect, Saying LH fluked the title just shows how little you know of F1
PandaPawPaw
07-07-2013
Today was the first time I had posted in this thread and it was fun.

Is this era of Vettel as bad as Schumacher's?
gamercraig
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“I don't know why but I just can't warm to Vettel. He has done amazing things in F1 but I don't find he that likeable.”

Same here. I think him only getting his acheivements in the best car by a mile doesn't help
Si_Crewe
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Fudd:
“Today was a different kind of tyre to those Mercedes tested with, though. It was an even race and we saw what happened.”

The trend remains the same though.
Cold weather and Merc' do okay. Hot weather and they get buried.
Equally, Lotus go well in hot weather but do poorly in cold climates.

Doesn't seem like anything's really changed after all.
Merc' have one more shot at glory at Spa (and, maybe, in Texas) but I reckon it's going to be downhill for the rest of the season.
Si_Crewe
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“Today was the first time I had posted in this thread and it was fun.

Is this era of Vettel as bad as Schumacher's?”

I suppose the main thing is that RBR, and Vettel, have done it by themselves.

Ferrari had the benefit of a deliberate plan by Bernie and the FIA to make Ferrari competitive again under threat of them taking their ball in.
At first that was necessary but Ferrari continued to take advantage of those benefits even when they already had the best team, car and driver.
Mystical123
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“I don't know why but I just can't warm to Vettel. He has done amazing things in F1 but I don't find he that likeable.”

Same. I think partly the reason why I don't rate him is that unlike Alonso he's never done great things in a poor car. And I just don't find him as likeable as the likes of Webber, Button or even Hamilton to be honest.

I don't think Vettel's as good a driver as Alonso or Raikkonen, or as clever a driver as those two and a few more besides. And watching him drive off towards a 4th world title is insanely boring, never mind the fact I don't think he deserves to be a quadruple world champion before Alonso or Raikkonen win another title.
TheToonArmy
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“The trend remains the same though.
Cold weather and Merc' do okay. Hot weather and they get buried.
Equally, Lotus go well in hot weather but do poorly in cold climates.

Doesn't seem like anything's really changed after all.
Merc' have one more shot at glory at Spa (and, maybe, in Texas) but I reckon it's going to be downhill for the rest of the season.”

Maybe Singapore as well, track temperature is normally lower than ambient after dark.

Track temp today was 45c, I am sure track temp in Singapore is 30c or lower. I have been there quite a lot with work.

If they can qualify on first row, hard to overtake track, this could be a merc track.

But who knows with the new tyres.
Blackadder V
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“Today was the first time I had posted in this thread and it was fun.

Is this era of Vettel as bad as Schumacher's?”

No in my opinion, it is much better because we still have many different constructors winning races in these Vettel years.

Plus Vettel and Webber not eager to do each other any favours is a bigger improvement.

Also while I am not a big fan of Vettel he is nowhere near as Machiavellian as Schumacher. He is, imo, a much more likeable character than Schumacher.

I went off the sport in the early 2000's but I am not going off it now despite the domination. I do miss refueling though.
PandaPawPaw
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“I suppose the main thing is that RBR, and Vettel, have done it by themselves.

Ferrari had the benefit of a deliberate plan by Bernie and the FIA to make Ferrari competitive again under threat of them taking their ball in.
At first that was necessary but Ferrari continued to take advantage of those benefits even when they already had the best team, car and driver.”

Yeah that's true. The whole FIA & Ferrari thing was a farce. Also I don't think Schumacher being a 7-time world champion is amazing as IMO a lot of it feels kind of dirty. Like certain things Schumacher did or a lot of the double standards that used to go on.

I do think Vettel will only be accepted if/when he moves to a different team but he must be doing something good as Webber hasn't had the same level of success as Vettel even though they have the same car (minus setups).
Si_Crewe
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Mystical123:
“Same. I think partly the reason why I don't rate him is that unlike Alonso he's never done great things in a poor car. And I just don't find him as likeable as the likes of Webber, Button or even Hamilton to be honest.

I don't think Vettel's as good a driver as Alonso or Raikkonen, or as clever a driver as those two and a few more besides. And watching him drive off towards a 4th world title is insanely boring, never mind the fact I don't think he deserves to be a quadruple world champion before Alonso or Raikkonen win another title.”

To be fair, Vettel did have some good races at Torro Rosso.

Maybe it's just me but I don't think most people have an issue with Vettel, in particular.
It's just when you've got a decent driver in an utterly dominant car and a seriously slippery team it makes it pretty dull to watch the same thing over and over again.

2010 was okay cos you had a whole heap of drivers in with a shout but at the moment it's more a case of all the others often fighting for the podium places which allows Vettel to romp away with it.
PandaPawPaw
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Blackadder V:
“I do miss refueling though.”

That is the thing I miss too. It was so much more tactical back then.
uberman
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“Perez is so much better than Jenson.”

Yeh he's so much better eh, oh hang on Jenson's beat him yet again and has scored twice as many points this season, shows how much you know
chopoff
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by PandaPawPaw:
“That is the thing I miss too. It was so much more tactical back then.”

I agree. I prefer fuel strategy than tyre strategy.

I wonder how long it'll be until we're electric and they come in for a re-charge and sit there for a little while seemingly doing nothing as the charge goes in from the ground!
BrooklynBoy
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by uberman:
“Yeh he's so much better eh, oh hang on Jenson's beat him yet again and has scored twice as many points this season, shows how much you know ”

Yes but Perez isn't British which is why Forza thinks he's better.
Forza Ferrari
07-07-2013
No it's more because perez puts manners on Jenson nearly every GP. He might not finish ahead at the end of the GP which is Buttons experience showing but you can tell Perze has much mor raw tallent.
Si_Crewe
07-07-2013
Originally Posted by Forza Ferrari:
“No it's more because perez puts manners on Jenson nearly every GP. He might not finish ahead at the end of the GP which is Buttons experience showing but you can tell Perze has much mor raw tallent.”

Yes, finishing order is so much less important than all that other stuff.

I bet you're still telling yourself that Alonso won the championship last year on that basis.
Lucidia2011
07-07-2013
The difference is watching Vettel doesn't feel like watching the best of the best.

It almost feels like he doesn't deserve his success when he surely does. I don't want to begrudge him ever but it's realllly hard to enjoy the sport atm.

Usually i would keep standing up and applauding brilliance but that doesn't feel so fitting either. It just never seems like he has to work hard enough to earn it...idk?

1 season with completely neutralized cars and no advantages would tell us more than the last 4....

I'm sick of getting hyped up for each race weekend and most times coming away down, even when Vettel doesn't win he's never far away, like a bad smell...

At least when the greats go down at Wimbledon say it's more like banishing gods from heaven.

When you start to watch and hope just as much someone loses than someone wins, anyone but 'that' person, there is something not right....

When people are praying the dude crashes we are in a situation...
ACU
08-07-2013
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Main thing I'd say is that it shows that anybody who thinks Merc' got any big benefit from the tyre test is talking out of their arse.”

I really cant believe you still believe Merc didnt gain an advantage. For a minute I have to do a double take, as I thought it was Fora that posted this. Its the kind of drivel he comes out with. To be honest I did expect someone to make this comment once Merc had a bad race, I just didnt think it would be coming from you.

The reason why Merc didnt do well in this race, was more than likely to do with Pirelli changing the tyres. I would be interested to know if these tyres were used during the test - I doubt it though. Hence explains a drop in Mercs form.

They have one 'bad' race, and that proves that they gained no advantage. Yet the three races where they performed better than at any stage of the season so far, means nothing. Dont quite get your logic there.

As for cold hard facts. Before Merc tested, they had 5 races - scored 72 pts, 0 wins and 2 poles. After the test, they have had 4 races - scored 111 pts, 2 wins and 3 poles. That seems pretty conclusive to me. Besides people that have raced, are closely involved with F1, say its pretty obvious that Merc gained something from the tests. So for me there are more likely to know whats what, rather than us two. You dont have to take me word for it. Listen to the experts.

As for the race, it was ok. Nothing spectacular, a pretty easy win for Vettel - his first well deserved home victory. Didnt do much wrong during the race. A close finish, however it seems that he had enough to keep Kimi behind.

Thankfully the marshal is ok, it could have been worse. RB were rightly fined. Although a fine is no real punishment. However not sure what else the FIA could do. To ban them for a race would have been too harsh.
TheToonArmy
08-07-2013
Originally Posted by ACU:
“I really cant believe you still believe Merc didnt gain an advantage. For a minute I have to do a double take, as I thought it was Fora that posted this. Its the kind of drivel he comes out with. To be honest I did expect someone to make this comment once Merc had a bad race, I just didnt think it would be coming from you.

The reason why Merc didnt do well in this race, was more than likely to do with Pirelli changing the tyres. I would be interested to know if these tyres were used during the test - I doubt it though. Hence explains a drop in form again from Merc.

They have one bad race, and that proves that they gained no advantage. Yet the three races where they performed better than at any stage of the season so far, means nothing. Dont quite get your logic there.

As for cold hard facts. Before Merc tested, they had 5 races - scored 72 pts, 0 wins and 2 poles. After the test, they have had 4 races - scored 111 pts, 2 wins and 3 poles. That seems pretty conclusive to me. Besides people that have raced, are closely involved with F1, say its pretty obvious that Merc gained something from the tests. So for me there are more likely to know whats what, rather than us two. You dont have to take me word for it. Listen to the experts.

As for the race, it was ok. Nothing spectacular, a pretty easy win for Vettel - his first well deserved home victory. Didnt do much wrong during the race. A close finish, however it seems that he had enough to keep Kimi behind.

Thankfully the marshal is ok, it could have been worse. RB were rightly fined. Although a fine is no real punishment. However not sure what else the FIA could do. To ban them for a race would have been too harsh.”

I think what also hurt them was the strict rules applied to all the teams regarding the tyres. i.e, tyre swapping
ACU
08-07-2013
Originally Posted by TheToonArmy:
“I think what also hurt them was the strict rules applied to all the teams regarding the tyres. i.e, tyre swapping”

Ah yes, very good point. That had slipped my mind.
Si_Crewe
09-07-2013
Originally Posted by ACU:
“I really cant believe you still believe Merc didnt gain an advantage. For a minute I have to do a double take, as I thought it was Fora that posted this. Its the kind of drivel he comes out with. To be honest I did expect someone to make this comment once Merc had a bad race, I just didnt think it would be coming from you.

The reason why Merc didnt do well in this race, was more than likely to do with Pirelli changing the tyres. I would be interested to know if these tyres were used during the test - I doubt it though. Hence explains a drop in Mercs form.

They have one 'bad' race, and that proves that they gained no advantage. Yet the three races where they performed better than at any stage of the season so far, means nothing. Dont quite get your logic there.”

Seems pretty obvious to me.

We know they did badly at the start of the season, in hot climates.
Monaco was a farce and Britain was undeniably much colder.

Personally, I think suggesting that it's only gone away from them again because the tyres are different is the sort of rubbish FF would come out with.

The car overheated it's tyres in hot weather at the start of the season and it's still doing it now.
You don't have to be a genius to see that happening.

Apply Occam's razor.

Theory 1: The car is similar to what it was at the start of the season and the performance varies depending on temperature.

Theory 2: The car overheated tyres in hot temperatures at the start of the season, Merc' altered the car as a result of testing and improved it enough that it became the best car on the grid, Pirelli changed the tyres again and the changes they made somehow negated all the performance Merc' had gained while, at the same time, not having the same effect on other teams.

Theory 2 simply makes no sense.
If Merc' did change the car as a result of the testing then they would, presumably, have taken it in the same direction as other teams and, apparently, surpassed them.
And yet we're supposed to accept that when Pirelli change the tyres again it has an apparently huge effect on Merc' while not affecting the other teams to the same extent?

And, at the same time, you've got teams like Lotus and FI who were good at the start of the season, on the old tyres, in hot weather, did poorly in cold climates and then, on the new tyres, are doing well in hot climates again.

Are we really to believe that all this stuff happened independently, and by pure coincidence, just so that we can say that Merc had, basically, one good race at Silverstone?

Nah.

The simple explanation is the most likely one, regardless of how badly some people might want Merc' to have cheated.

I'd suggest the rest of the season will continue to bear this out.
ACU
09-07-2013
Originally Posted by Si_Crewe:
“Seems pretty obvious to me.

We know they did badly at the start of the season, in hot climates.
Monaco was a farce and Britain was undeniably much colder.

Personally, I think suggesting that it's only gone away from them again because the tyres are different is the sort of rubbish FF would come out with.

The car overheated it's tyres in hot weather at the start of the season and it's still doing it now.
You don't have to be a genius to see that happening.

Apply Occam's razor.

Theory 1: The car is similar to what it was at the start of the season and the performance varies depending on temperature.

Theory 2: The car overheated tyres in hot temperatures at the start of the season, Merc' altered the car as a result of testing and improved it enough that it became the best car on the grid, Pirelli changed the tyres again and the changes they made somehow negated all the performance Merc' had gained while, at the same time, not having the same effect on other teams.

Theory 2 simply makes no sense.
If Merc' did change the car as a result of the testing then they would, presumably, have taken it in the same direction as other teams and, apparently, surpassed them.
And yet we're supposed to accept that when Pirelli change the tyres again it has an apparently huge effect on Merc' while not affecting the other teams to the same extent?

And, at the same time, you've got teams like Lotus and FI who were good at the start of the season, on the old tyres, in hot weather, did poorly in cold climates and then, on the new tyres, are doing well in hot climates again.

Are we really to believe that all this stuff happened independently, and by pure coincidence, just so that we can say that Merc had, basically, one good race at Silverstone?

Nah.

The simple explanation is the most likely one, regardless of how badly some people might want Merc' to have cheated.

I'd suggest the rest of the season will continue to bear this out.”

I would suggest theory 1 is too simplistic. There are a load of other factors that come into play for a car, the track characteristics being another major factor which you have neglected to mention.

Theory 2 also has holes. We dont know that the new tyres didnt cause a problem for the other teams, they may well have. If they caused the same amount of problems to all the teams, then the drop in performance would have been negated.

Your hot/cold weather theory doesnt hold up either. The coldest race of the season so far was Australia (20C). Thus according to you Merc should have done well at this race, and Lotus and FI would have done badly. Yet Kimi won the race, and Hamilton finished 5th. After the test, the coldest race was Canada (29C) Hamilton finished 3rd and Kimi 9th. The hottest race after the tests Monaco (34C) and British (31C) were both won by Rosberg, with Kimi finishing 10th and 5th respectively. All these facts, not opinion, do not fit your theory. Therefore the theory isnt correct.

NB - I chose the highest placed driver from Merc and Lotus for the above data. I also ignored Germany due to changes in tyres.

Since your theory isnt correct,any conclusion derived from that theory cannot be correct either. Thus your conclusion of

Quote:
“The simple explanation is the most likely one, regardless of how badly some people might want Merc' to have cheated.”

is wrong.

Like I said to you earlier, forget what you and me think. The experts are saying Merc gained an advantage. So I cant see you coming up with a theory that they havent thought of, when they arrived at their conclusion.

Also what happens in the rest of the season is essentially a new starting point. Simply because we have different tyres, different rules (no tyre swapping higher running pressure) and the other teams would have completed their YDT before the next race. So all the teams would have completed additional testing to bring them to the amount of testing conducted by Merc. Of course all testing will be for Pirellis benefit and not the teams
Forza Ferrari
09-07-2013
Its nice to see I'm not the only person who gets abused on here for having a different opinion on a matter.

Would the real Forza Ferrari please stand up.
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