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Old 27-11-2012, 09:02
daveyboy7472
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Sorry guys, this intro's gonna be a long'un!

What I like about the last four episodes is of Series 4 is that they are all good for so many different reasons. They vary greatly in content and feel but they are all still amazing. The Series 4 Finale is great for me for many different reasons. As I said in the Doomsday Thread, this 2-Parter is the only one that came close to being as good as that imo. What the Series 2 finale has over this is itís varied emotional content but I find this finale more appealing because of the fun and action/fast paced nature of it.

STOLEN EARTH
Stolen Earth is marginally better than Journeyís End. What I loved about it is the bringing together of all the elements of RTDís Universe and making a great story. Having so many characters would usually mean big trouble but somehow RTD gives each and everyone of them something to do, no matter how small. The episode starts superbly with the Earth being snatched quite literally under The Doctorís nose. The rest of the pre-credits sequence introduces all the elements that will make up the story, Torchwood, Sarah and Luke, Martha and Wilf and Donnaís Mum. Then Rose suddenly appears and into a fast credits sequence that struggles to get everyone in.

After the credits, the pace seriously picks up further as the action becomes relentless. Magic moments include the reactions to the presence of the Daleks from Jack, Sarah and Martha. I liked the way the various elements were brought together by, and we are re-introduced to, Harriet Jones. The sparring between her, Jack, Sarah and Martha was amusing as well as respectful. It was great Rose couldnít join in either, stretching out the reunion between her and The Doctor. Big funny moment is when Harriet is about to be exterminated and the ĎWe know who you are.í gag is played out for the ultimate comedy but tragic effect.

Another magic moment is Wilf trying to kill a Dalek with his paintgun and the 'My vision is not impaired.' speech from the Dalek. After being saved by Rose, his offer to swap his paintgun with her weapon is priceless!

Meanwhile The Doctor is at the Shadow Proclamation where all the elements of the series are brought together. The reference to Donnaís loss to come is intriguing; it isnít looking good for her. Again, the implication that everything is revolving around her comes to the fore. Did like The Doctor showing his rebellious side as he refuses to obey the commands to stay.

The rest of the episode builds up gradually as The Doctor finally makes contact with his friends and is almost instantly forced into a chat with Davros, whoís introduction into the episode I liked as he was heard, then seen in the shadows until he is fully revealed at this point. Though no-one can match the superb Michael Wisher, Julian Bleach was good in his own right and brought a calm insanity that Iíd wished The Master had had the previous Series.

The last section of the episode was brilliant. Roseís reunion with The Doctor and the Dalek appearing from nowhere would have been shocking had the papers decided not to blab it that this was going to happen so not being spoiler-free seriously ruined the moment. I have to admit it was an absolute corker of a cliffhanger, one of the best. For my part I always guessed Tennant would be back the following week, there was no way they were going to end his Era just like that, but it certainly caused a lot of debate during the week in between the episodes. Also loved the other cliffhangers with Sarah and the Daleks and Gwen and Ianto under attack at the Torchwood Hub.

JOURNEY'S END
Journeyís End, a slightly different sort of episode even if the feel was the same. All the cliffhangers are resolved in a plausible way though Tennantís was the probably the more unpredictable. Love the return of Jackie and Mickey. A summing up of the RTD Era wouldnít have been the same without them.

The trip to the Dalek crucible follows very quickly and the intrigue surrounding Donna just keeps increasing as the TARDIS door slams in her face and she keeps hearing the heartbeat. Meanwhile, Jack is Ďkilled.í and is used as a handy way to escape and The Doctor and Rose are imprisoned in a holding cell as Davros starts his taunting of The Doctor.

I thought the idea of Davrosís revealing The Doctorís soul as promised by the mad Dalek Khan a great summing up on RTDís Time on the show. It isnít until itís shown to you just how many people have died in his name that you realise Davros may have a point. The man who abhors violence instils the warrior spirit in others as proved by both Martha and Captain Jack respectively. Before they are transmatted to the crucible there is that spine tingly moment Davros recognises Sarah, the best since she first saw the TARDIS in School Reunion.

Meanwhile the hand storyline that has been dragging on a bit since Tennantís debut finally gets some life, quite literally as another Doctor is created. And it is here The Doctor/Donna relationship hits itís peak. Tennant does a brilliant impersonation of Tate, something she returns in bucketloads later in the episode where she becomes part Time Lord and copies him. Itís a nice bit of comic relief to the episode as The Doctor finally realises the links between him and Donna have already been there but not complete.

Out of all the returnees in this, Martha was the least well-used of the major companions. Kept from the main storyline and away from meeting the other companions, itís almost a separate story of her own she has with whole key business. (Did love the German sounding Daleks though!) Then when it was finished, she didnít really have that much to do and it was a real shame time constraints stopped us seeing her having any sort of meaningful chat with Rose. At least Francine was likeable in this!


Some people have criticised the plot in this but I found it made perfect sense. The Daleks have always tried to find ways to be the soul species in the Universe, they hate any other kind but themselves. The reality bomb was a new and original way of achieving their aims. The resolution has also been criticised but the other Doctor was supposed to be the same as the Doctor who Rose first met, war damaged so itís perfectly reasonable that he would commit genocide. Plus there was also the new Time Lordy Donna who is played with great humour and to perfection by Catherine Tate. Her new knowledge is displayed with great panache much to The Doctorís astonishment.

The Doctorís attempts to save Davros even though he was accusing The Doctor of causing all the chaos was a nice touch and there was still the intrigue of Dalek Khanís constant statements that one person will still die to contend with.

One of the best moments of the whole story is the piloting of the Earth home via the TARDIS along to the Song Of Freedom. The enjoyment of everyone in filming these scenes is quite visible onscreen. I really enjoyed these scenes too, especially when Jackie is stopped from undertaking any tasks on the TARDIS in keeping with the Doctor/Jackie relationship. I also liked the reaction of the other characters as the Earth is travelling across space and their reaction as Earth is finally returned home. Wilf is as usual funny and superb.

After all the departures there are only two that stand out. First of all Rose. I see this in two different ways. On one hand, yes it was a good resolution in giving her a proper send off this time with the other Doctor, but on the other hand it seemed to dilute her original departure and even though itís still good to watch, it just doesnít seem the same with this final resolution. So for me itís a bit of a mixed bag scenario with her really.

Off course, the far greater departure was Donna's. Even at this point weíre not sure what is going to happen to her but as she begins to suffer a breakdown due to her new powers, itís obvious she canít stay as she is. In some ways, it is similar to Rose with her power in POTW but this time the fallout from having those powers is far greater and what makes her eventual memory wipe so much more painful is that Donna knows exactly what The Doctor is going to do her. Here the incidental music and the acting by both Tennant and Tate is superb in their last proper scene together as The Doctor clears her mind. I think this is just as sad as Roseís original departure and I still think it is miles better than Amy and Roryís, it had so much impact.

Then we get to see the outcome as The Doctor tells Wilf that she can never remember her or her mind will burn. I think itís a lovely little speech that The Doctor gave when he tells Wilf and Sylvia about the worlds out there who will remember her but she canít remember them. Then Donna pops in, with no memory, all very Donna-like, missing the big picture with the planets as The Doctor said she would. Even at this point I didnít like Sylvia, as she forces The Doctor to leave. How sad it was that Donna hardly bothered to acknowledge him as he said goodbye.

Wilfís asking The Doctorís future on his own was also a nice scene. It was great that Bernard Cribbenís could show so many sides of Wilf and here his fatherly concern for The Doctor countered nicely with his bumbling, humourous self.

Finally, Iím glad The Doctor was left on his own to reflect at the storyís end. It was better it ended this way rather than the poorly timed introduction of Donna herself after Roseís original departure.

Both episodes were an excellent way to end what was a very good Series and I so wished the beginning had matched the end, it would have been such a cracker. I know this Finale is considered a mess by some people but I disagree. It was clearly intended as a goodbye to the RTD Universe before he hit the Specials and a celebration of his time on the show. Most importantly, though, it was fun and it was exciting, and it was an enormous thrill ride with magic moments aplenty. Sometimes, those things are more important than the story itself. I would rather watched a 100 episodes like this than sit through 1 well written episode that has none of the above and be bored stiff as has been the case quite often in recent Series. For me, this was the last time I actually enjoyed a story this much. The Specials were mainly crap and the despite some good episodes in the Moffat era, nothing has come close to this for me since.

And finally, as I said when starting these New Series stories, Iím going to complete the Specials and Iím handing over to someone else on Sunday to take these threads through the 11th Doctorís Era. Though I will still contribute as I feel a little re-evaluation of some episodes is needed, I need a break from actually starting them, especially with Xmas coming up. Plus I donít feel comfortable starting threads on an Era Iím not entirely at ease with with.

Who the new OP will be will all be revealed on Sunday.......

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Old 27-11-2012, 09:46
AdelaideGirl
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I agree that these episodes were a glorious way to say goodbye to the RTD era, Tennant and Tate. But I have a couple of small grumbles - the size of Rose's gun. Every time i watch it bugs me, way too big and they scene with the looters I don't like it. Not wild about Rose's return full stop but then again I'd probably be annoyed if they did it without her. So these are not big complaints.


Donna's story is heartbreaking but I'm glad they stuck to it. Sure this is far more emotional than Amy and Rory but I don't mind that it can't be like that we'd never be able to watch it.

Anyway this is pure RTD - big, bassy, bold, lots of special effects, too many characters and too many stories everything a final should be and we love it.
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Old 27-11-2012, 10:03
CD93
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Without a doubt the true swan song of the RTD era, for that reason, I haven't watched them both together again in a while. I feel they deserve some kind of build up.

I found Rose somewhat dislikable with her return, however, whereas Donna's send-off was brilliant.

Looking forward to the next set of threads. I will certainly be participating through a re-watch of the 2010 series and evaluating my original thoughts.
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Old 27-11-2012, 10:06
Granny McSmith
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I agree with your assessment of the story, davey. I loved these episodes. They had the huge theme of the Universe in peril, with only the Doctor and his little band to defend everything from annihilation, yet the small human moments were so well done and believable, and fitted in perfectly without interrupting the story.

Only one thing - I thought the fact that Rose ended up with the Doctor mark 2 was a bit unsatisfactory. She seemed to be left with second best.

But Donna's ending was so very sad - It's the only time before or since that the ending of a DW episode has upset me for days afterwards. Well done RTD!

This series was wonderful from start to finish, imo. I don't think it will ever be equalled.
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:12
bp2
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I hated these episodes, I think it is the second worst dalek TV story ever in the entire history of Doctor Who the worst was Army of Ghosts and Doomsday. I am frustrated by this story I really enjoyed the scenes with Davros however the plot was ruined by cramming lots of companions in. The conclusion was awful as I remember it was simply Doctor Donna pressing buttons why couldn't we have a decent story rather than lots of companions returning so soon after their departure. I watch Doctor Who because of the stories not because of the companions.
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:29
Sara_Peplow
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This episode was sad poor Donna. However did like all his freinds coming togetehr to help him. Jack,Rose and Sara Jane.Hope we will get something similar for the 50th.
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Old 27-11-2012, 11:51
GDK
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[Snip]And finally, as I said when starting these New Series stories, Iím going to complete the Specials and Iím handing over to someone else on Sunday to take these threads through the 11th Doctorís Era. Though I will still contribute as I feel a little re-evaluation of some episodes is needed, I need a break from actually starting them, especially with Xmas coming up. Plus I donít feel comfortable starting threads on an Era Iím not entirely at ease with with.

Who the new OP will be will all be revealed on Sunday.......

Thanks for your analysis of all these RTD era episodes. I've followed each one with interest, even though I've not always contributed to the debate - more often than not someone else our your commentary has already said what I feel.

I like both eras a lot, but my preference is for SM's.

Slightly.

But then my "thing" in a TV series is for interconnected stories that build up complexity and have more "realism" because events have consequences. It also shows the writers have invested some effort into planning the overall arc, which I appreciate. Of course, both eras deliver this, but SM's (so far) does this in spades.

I also love a good time travel story on which the SM era also delivers.

Doctor Who is almost my perfect cup of coffee.
(I would say "tea", but as I'm a coffee drinker...)



Thank you, daveyboy.
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Old 27-11-2012, 12:45
daveyboy7472
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I hated these episodes, I think it is the second worst dalek TV story ever in the entire history of Doctor Who the worst was Army of Ghosts and Doomsday. I am frustrated by this story I really enjoyed the scenes with Davros however the plot was ruined by cramming lots of companions in. The conclusion was awful as I remember it was simply Doctor Donna pressing buttons why couldn't we have a decent story rather than lots of companions returning so soon after their departure. I watch Doctor Who because of the stories not because of the companions.
For me what makes this story so unique is the intertwining of all the Spin-Off series back into their parent programme. I'm not sure if it's been done before in such a way in other Series, I've certainly never seen it.(First Series of Angel was quite connected to Buffy but still maintained it's independence though) Often it is the case the spin-off series move completely away from the parent programme but though Torchwood has done this to a degree with Miracle Day, at the time this was filmed, it was still quite connected with Doctor Who.

What I also enjoy is having all the characters back that RTD has used, shame Pete Tyler wasn't there but you can't have everything. I never once felt the companions and the Spin Off characters came before the story, they were part of it yes, but the story always seems at the forefront the whole time until the last ten minutes of Journey's End, off course, once the main threat was over.

Thanks for your analysis of all these RTD era episodes. I've followed each one with interest, even though I've not always contributed to the debate - more often than not someone else our your commentary has already said what I feel.

I like both eras a lot, but my preference is for SM's.

Slightly.

But then my "thing" in a TV series is for interconnected stories that build up complexity and have more "realism" because events have consequences. It also shows the writers have invested some effort into planning the overall arc, which I appreciate. Of course, both eras deliver this, but SM's (so far) does this in spades.

I also love a good time travel story on which the SM era also delivers.

Doctor Who is almost my perfect cup of coffee.
(I would say "tea", but as I'm a coffee drinker...)



Thank you, daveyboy.
Thanks for the compliment.

I'm also looking forward to re-evaluating the Moffat Era as a contributor rather than the OP. Several episodes have gone up in my estimation since I first saw them. A lot of them....haven't.

What's been great in doing these RTD Era Threads is spotting through discussion and rewatching things I hadn't before. Like The Ninth Doctor's progression during Series 1 to a nicer and funnier character and even things like Billie Piper's performance in Turn Left which I hadn't noticed until the other day. Hoping by joining in with the 11th Doctor threads there will be plenty more things to discover that I hadn't previously.

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Old 27-11-2012, 14:07
Ed Sizzers
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Not good.

Bring back every companion from the RTD era, just to waste them, particularly Rose.
Donna becomes the only companion not to save the world on her own merits, and turns out to have been right all along, in that she was 'only a temp' - just on a bigger scale than she had been before.
Doomsday's fantastic and bittersweet conclusion is completely ruined, with Rose apparantly being happy with a photo-copy of the man she supposedly loves.
And it's all resolved by pressing some buttons.

On, the plus side, K-9's in it.
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Old 27-11-2012, 14:39
CoalHillJanitor
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IF they REALLY have recovered The Power of the Daleks, it would be interesting to compare

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Old 27-11-2012, 15:02
daveyboy7472
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IF they REALLY have recovered The Power of the Daleks, it would be interesting to compare

Spoiler
Very interesting point CHJ!

I think in most Dalek stories the Daleks end up getting blown up. All that is different is the means as to how it is done. This story wasn't so different.

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Old 27-11-2012, 15:31
Mulett
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Love love love these two episodes. An amazing way to end the (proper) RTD era of Doctor Who. Oh, that bit where Davros recognises Sarah Jane . . .

SO many little moments. So many big moments. And that regeneration cliff hanger!

A.MAZ.ZING.
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Old 27-11-2012, 17:36
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Sorry guys, this intro's gonna be a long'un!

What I like about the last four episodes is of Series 4 is that they are all good for so many different reasons. They vary greatly in content and feel but they are all still amazing. The Series 4 Finale is great for me for many different reasons. As I said in the Doomsday Thread, this 2-Parter is the only one that came close to being as good as that imo. What the Series 2 finale has over this is itís varied emotional content but I find this finale more appealing because of the fun and action/fast paced nature of it.

STOLEN EARTH
Stolen Earth is marginally better than Journeyís End. What I loved about it is the bringing together of all the elements of RTDís Universe and making a great story. Having so many characters would usually mean big trouble but somehow RTD gives each and everyone of them something to do, no matter how small. The episode starts superbly with the Earth being snatched quite literally under The Doctorís nose. The rest of the pre-credits sequence introduces all the elements that will make up the story, Torchwood, Sarah and Luke, Martha and Wilf and Donnaís Mum. Then Rose suddenly appears and into a fast credits sequence that struggles to get everyone in.

After the credits, the pace seriously picks up further as the action becomes relentless. Magic moments include the reactions to the presence of the Daleks from Jack, Sarah and Martha. I liked the way the various elements were brought together by, and we are re-introduced to, Harriet Jones. The sparring between her, Jack, Sarah and Martha was amusing as well as respectful. It was great Rose couldnít join in either, stretching out the reunion between her and The Doctor. Big funny moment is when Harriet is about to be exterminated and the ĎWe know who you are.í gag is played out for the ultimate comedy but tragic effect.

Another magic moment is Wilf trying to kill a Dalek with his paintgun and the 'My vision is not impaired.' speech from the Dalek. After being saved by Rose, his offer to swap his paintgun with her weapon is priceless!

Meanwhile The Doctor is at the Shadow Proclamation where all the elements of the series are brought together. The reference to Donnaís loss to come is intriguing; it isnít looking good for her. Again, the implication that everything is revolving around her comes to the fore. Did like The Doctor showing his rebellious side as he refuses to obey the commands to stay.

The rest of the episode builds up gradually as The Doctor finally makes contact with his friends and is almost instantly forced into a chat with Davros, whoís introduction into the episode I liked as he was heard, then seen in the shadows until he is fully revealed at this point. Though no-one can match the superb Michael Wisher, Julian Bleach was good in his own right and brought a calm insanity that Iíd wished The Master had had the previous Series.

The last section of the episode was brilliant. Roseís reunion with The Doctor and the Dalek appearing from nowhere would have been shocking had the papers decided not to blab it that this was going to happen so not being spoiler-free seriously ruined the moment. I have to admit it was an absolute corker of a cliffhanger, one of the best. For my part I always guessed Tennant would be back the following week, there was no way they were going to end his Era just like that, but it certainly caused a lot of debate during the week in between the episodes. Also loved the other cliffhangers with Sarah and the Daleks and Gwen and Ianto under attack at the Torchwood Hub.

JOURNEY'S END
Journeyís End, a slightly different sort of episode even if the feel was the same. All the cliffhangers are resolved in a plausible way though Tennantís was the probably the more unpredictable. Love the return of Jackie and Mickey. A summing up of the RTD Era wouldnít have been the same without them.

The trip to the Dalek crucible follows very quickly and the intrigue surrounding Donna just keeps increasing as the TARDIS door slams in her face and she keeps hearing the heartbeat. Meanwhile, Jack is Ďkilled.í and is used as a handy way to escape and The Doctor and Rose are imprisoned in a holding cell as Davros starts his taunting of The Doctor.

I thought the idea of Davrosís revealing The Doctorís soul as promised by the mad Dalek Khan a great summing up on RTDís Time on the show. It isnít until itís shown to you just how many people have died in his name that you realise Davros may have a point. The man who abhors violence instils the warrior spirit in others as proved by both Martha and Captain Jack respectively. Before they are transmatted to the crucible there is that spine tingly moment Davros recognises Sarah, the best since she first saw the TARDIS in School Reunion.

Meanwhile the hand storyline that has been dragging on a bit since Tennantís debut finally gets some life, quite literally as another Doctor is created. And it is here The Doctor/Donna relationship hits itís peak. Tennant does a brilliant impersonation of Tate, something she returns in bucketloads later in the episode where she becomes part Time Lord and copies him. Itís a nice bit of comic relief to the episode as The Doctor finally realises the links between him and Donna have already been there but not complete.

Out of all the returnees in this, Martha was the least well-used of the major companions. Kept from the main storyline and away from meeting the other companions, itís almost a separate story of her own she has with whole key business. (Did love the German sounding Daleks though!) Then when it was finished, she didnít really have that much to do and it was a real shame time constraints stopped us seeing her having any sort of meaningful chat with Rose. At least Francine was likeable in this!


Some people have criticised the plot in this but I found it made perfect sense. The Daleks have always tried to find ways to be the soul species in the Universe, they hate any other kind but themselves. The reality bomb was a new and original way of achieving their aims. The resolution has also been criticised but the other Doctor was supposed to be the same as the Doctor who Rose first met, war damaged so itís perfectly reasonable that he would commit genocide. Plus there was also the new Time Lordy Donna who is played with great humour and to perfection by Catherine Tate. Her new knowledge is displayed with great panache much to The Doctorís astonishment.

The Doctorís attempts to save Davros even though he was accusing The Doctor of causing all the chaos was a nice touch and there was still the intrigue of Dalek Khanís constant statements that one person will still die to contend with.

One of the best moments of the whole story is the piloting of the Earth home via the TARDIS along to the Song Of Freedom. The enjoyment of everyone in filming these scenes is quite visible onscreen. I really enjoyed these scenes too, especially when Jackie is stopped from undertaking any tasks on the TARDIS in keeping with the Doctor/Jackie relationship. I also liked the reaction of the other characters as the Earth is travelling across space and their reaction as Earth is finally returned home. Wilf is as usual funny and superb.

After all the departures there are only two that stand out. First of all Rose. I see this in two different ways. On one hand, yes it was a good resolution in giving her a proper send off this time with the other Doctor, but on the other hand it seemed to dilute her original departure and even though itís still good to watch, it just doesnít seem the same with this final resolution. So for me itís a bit of a mixed bag scenario with her really.

Off course, the far greater departure was Donna's. Even at this point weíre not sure what is going to happen to her but as she begins to suffer a breakdown due to her new powers, itís obvious she canít stay as she is. In some ways, it is similar to Rose with her power in POTW but this time the fallout from having those powers is far greater and what makes her eventual memory wipe so much more painful is that Donna knows exactly what The Doctor is going to do her. Here the incidental music and the acting by both Tennant and Tate is superb in their last proper scene together as The Doctor clears her mind. I think this is just as sad as Roseís original departure and I still think it is miles better than Amy and Roryís, it had so much impact.

Then we get to see the outcome as The Doctor tells Wilf that she can never remember her or her mind will burn. I think itís a lovely little speech that The Doctor gave when he tells Wilf and Sylvia about the worlds out there who will remember her but she canít remember them. Then Donna pops in, with no memory, all very Donna-like, missing the big picture with the planets as The Doctor said she would. Even at this point I didnít like Sylvia, as she forces The Doctor to leave. How sad it was that Donna hardly bothered to acknowledge him as he said goodbye.

Wilfís asking The Doctorís future on his own was also a nice scene. It was great that Bernard Cribbenís could show so many sides of Wilf and here his fatherly concern for The Doctor countered nicely with his bumbling, humourous self.

Finally, Iím glad The Doctor was left on his own to reflect at the storyís end. It was better it ended this way rather than the poorly timed introduction of Donna herself after Roseís original departure.

Both episodes were an excellent way to end what was a very good Series and I so wished the beginning had matched the end, it would have been such a cracker. I know this Finale is considered a mess by some people but I disagree. It was clearly intended as a goodbye to the RTD Universe before he hit the Specials and a celebration of his time on the show. Most importantly, though, it was fun and it was exciting, and it was an enormous thrill ride with magic moments aplenty. Sometimes, those things are more important than the story itself. I would rather watched a 100 episodes like this than sit through 1 well written episode that has none of the above and be bored stiff as has been the case quite often in recent Series. For me, this was the last time I actually enjoyed a story this much. The Specials were mainly crap and the despite some good episodes in the Moffat era, nothing has come close to this for me since.

And finally, as I said when starting these New Series stories, Iím going to complete the Specials and Iím handing over to someone else on Sunday to take these threads through the 11th Doctorís Era. Though I will still contribute as I feel a little re-evaluation of some episodes is needed, I need a break from actually starting them, especially with Xmas coming up. Plus I donít feel comfortable starting threads on an Era Iím not entirely at ease with with.

Who the new OP will be will all be revealed on Sunday.......

I always thought this, as initially planned, should have been the last Tennant episode and when Moffatt should have steeped in. Certainly, I think RTD was ready to leave. And he said, this was going to be the end, before the specials were commisioned, which were even more OTT than this. Because, when watching thism although it's enjoyable, I just cant help but think it's much more about image and spectacle than it is plot. I'm not really criticising RTD, he's a great writer when he wants to be (Midnight was proof of that) and I'll forever be grateful to him for bringing back Dr Who in the first place, but he can get really carried away at times. This is why I prefer the Moffatt's era. Even though he can also get carried away at times, I cant help but feel theres much more plot in those episodes (perhaps to much plot as his stories can be a bit over complicated at times. However, overcomplicated is better than simplified in my book (yes, yes, I know, it's aimed primarily at children, but hey, this is my op) and I'm afraid that series 4 does simplfy stuff a bit). The finales to series 1 and 3 may be 2 of my favourites, but RTD could also write very badly as well, which was proven with this finale.

The Stolen Earth
Except, this episode is really good, which is probably why Journeys End is so much of a letdown. It's great to see a Dr Who/Torchwood/SJA Combo, and it was nice to have the Daleks back. The scenes where the Earth is invaded, and we hear the "EXTERMINATE.... EXTERMINATE... EXTERMINATE!" over the loudspeakers is brilliantly done. It's nice to finally know what the Shadow Procolmation is, and, of course, that cliffhanger is crazy, one of the best cliffhangers in the history, only possibly rivalled by the revelation of the Master in Utopia.

But, the best thing about this episode, is Davros, the guy who got me into Dr Who in the first place and one of the best villains ever. But to be fair, though that scene where the Doctor discovers he's alive is brilliant, this was one criticism of the episodes for me. It's all treated like some big surprise, but after seeing a man-dalek thing in the trailers and most of the episode, you KNOW it's him=any surprise ruined.

But there is other stuff I'm not mad keen on, namely, the small matter of THE EPISODES ENITRE PREMISE. It's just hard to buy the earth being moved halfway across the universe with no effect, especially not the Earth being brought back by the TARDIS in the next one. Yes, yes, I know, we have the handy atmospheric shield thing, but how exactly does that stop the gravity going crazy etc? See, this is what I mean about RTD getting an image in his head and being determined to do it. I know I'm not exactly the most successful writer in the universe, but that not good writing in my op. Also, while I know the companions are meant to all come together etc, I cant help but feel the Doctors absent for a bit to long. But overall, this is a really good episode, it's the next part which is bad

Journey's End
The thing which annoys me about this is it could have been such a good episode, like the Happiness Patrol in the 80's, like the following Dalek story "Victory of the Daleks," this had such huge potential, but then this potential was just wasted. There are some really good scenes in this, especially the scenes with Davros who just steals the whole thing (though I still think it would have been nice if they'd brought back Terry Molloy). But for me, this has more flaws than Stolen Earth, preventing it from being a good episode overall. There was just lots of stuff, particuarly at the end, which just marrs my enjoyment. Most important is the resolution. What the hell happens? There was a lot of fans who criticised Last of the Time Lords for having a silly ending etc. But really, this was far worse. At least that made sense, there was an explanation for it all. Here, they LITERALLY just press a few buttons and all the Daleks blow up. Sorry, but you cant get much worse than that for an ending. People on here seem to be assuming it's something to do with their power source cos 1 bit mentions power, but really it's very vague, and my main problem is it totally reduces any sense of threat you get with the Daleks. For example, why couldnt the Doctor just do this again in Victory of the Daleks when he manages to get to that console. Or why couldnt he have done this in the Asylum of the Daleks. It's just awful and further validates my op of this episode, while it could have been good, it is basically just anticlimax, from the moment the Doctor regenerates... but it's still him.

This is 1 of the very few times I've actually been embarrased by Who. The whole thing with them all steering the TARDIS, it's all jsut a bit corny. Also, I really dont think they should have brought back Rose, I just feel everything that happened here ruined her ending in Doomsday. RTD, I think was clearly aware of this, having the farewell in the same place again. Also, when Donna left, so much had happened etc in the past few mins, well, I was past caring which is a shame cos I did like Donna in this series. You talked about how she puts in some of her best performances, but really, with the whole Time Lord-y thing going on where she went all smug etc, she actaully really irritated me here, far more than in any other episode with Donna.

























God, I've just looked through my post, I sound really bloody negative dont I! And the thing is, I dont really think this is bad, theres been so many worse stories, and it is quite enjoyable. It's just, there are quite a few flaws and really, it's not one of my favourite stories, and ceratinly not one of my favourite series finales. In my op, apart from the end of time, which just made the same mistakes, this has to be worst series finale. Enjoyable, but not really a very good plot, and, with everyone returning, it felt like it SHOULD be the last 10th Doctor story which meant, when it turned out it wasnt, that it just felt weird
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Old 27-11-2012, 18:20
daveyboy7472
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It felt like it SHOULD be the last 10th Doctor story which meant, when it turned out it wasnt, that it just felt weird
This is something we can both agree on. I always thought, as with Doomsday, that this is the type of episode Tennant should have gone out on.

The End Of Time wasn't a patch on this story and lacked everything this story had. I think with Donna's memory wipe and a regeneration at the end, it would have been an awesome swansong.
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Old 27-11-2012, 19:00
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This is something we can both agree on. I always thought, as with Doomsday, that this is the type of episode Tennant should have gone out on.

The End Of Time wasn't a patch on this story and lacked everything this story had. I think with Donna's memory wipe and a regeneration at the end, it would have been an awesome swansong.
I dont think it would have really amde sense to have the regeneration at then when you have a fake regernation as the cliffhanger. We have 10's double in Journeys End as well, so just have the fake regeneration at the end of Stolen Earth become a real regeneration.

Also, funnily enough, I dont really mind The End of Time Part 1 (mainly cos of the Master's return). The End of Time Part 2 is awful, just awful, but, like with this, there are plenty of good moments in both parts of Davids last 2 parter. It's just another example of RTD getting carried away, turning an otherwise good story a bit shitty. But more on in your last thread(s?).
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Old 27-11-2012, 19:09
daveyboy7472
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I dont think it would have really amde sense to have the regeneration at then when you have a fake regernation as the cliffhanger. We have 10's double in Journeys End as well, so just have the fake regeneration at the end of Stolen Earth become a real regeneration.

Also, funnily enough, I dont really mind The End of Time Part 1 (mainly cos of the Master's return). The End of Time Part 2 is awful, just awful, but, like with this, there are plenty of good moments in both parts of Davids last 2 parter. It's just another example of RTD getting carried away, turning an otherwise good story a bit shitty. But more on in your last thread(s?).
Obviously if Tennant had left for real in this story than the fake regeneration would have had to be dropped for another cliffhanger.
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Old 27-11-2012, 22:26
AdelaideGirl
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But the fake regeneration was more about a solution to the spare hand and the Rose/Ten romance than a story idea - they worked backwards than a starting point that needed following.

Yes Tennant should have left but I can understand that this was his dream job and while he knew he needed to leave he didn't really want to go.
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Old 27-11-2012, 22:29
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But the fake regeneration was more about a solution to the spare hand and the Rose/Ten romance than a story idea - they worked backwards than a starting point that needed following.

Yes Tennant should have left but I can understand that this was his dream job and while he knew he needed to leave he didn't really want to go.
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:09
daveyboy7472
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But the fake regeneration was more about a solution to the spare hand and the Rose/Ten romance than a story idea - they worked backwards than a starting point that needed following.

Yes Tennant should have left but I can understand that this was his dream job and while he knew he needed to leave he didn't really want to go.
I'm sure if Tennant had decided to leave at this point, the whole story would have been rewritten anyway. My main point was really that it was the type of story he should have left on than the story itself, if that makes sense.

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Old 27-11-2012, 23:13
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But the fake regeneration was more about a solution to the spare hand and the Rose/Ten romance than a story idea - they worked backwards than a starting point that needed following.

Yes Tennant should have left but I can understand that this was his dream job and while he knew he needed to leave he didn't really want to go.
From what I heard, the original plan was for Tennant+RTD to leave here, and I think from what I heard Tennant was fine with this. I think it was someone else, maybe in the BBC or something, who raised the idea of the specials, thoug I could be wrong
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:23
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My memory is that there was a lot of back and forthing on the issue. It started with Tennant really wanting to do Hamlet but not wanting to leave Doctor Who, but knowing if he didn't he'd miss out on a lot of other great parts.


My guess is that when they decided and arranged contracts with Billie, Liz, John et al the plan was for him and RTD to leave only for a last minuet change of mind which lead to the specials.
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Old 27-11-2012, 23:34
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From what I heard, the original plan was for Tennant+RTD to leave here, and I think from what I heard Tennant was fine with this. I think it was someone else, maybe in the BBC or something, who raised the idea of the specials, thoug I could be wrong
My memory is that there was a lot of back and forthing on the issue. It started with Tennant really wanting to do Hamlet but not wanting to leave Doctor Who, but knowing if he didn't he'd miss out on a lot of other great parts.


My guess is that when they decided and arranged contracts with Billie, Liz, John et al the plan was for him and RTD to leave only for a last minuet change of mind which lead to the specials.
When I first joined this forum one of my apparent misconceptions was that the Specials only happened because Tennant wanted to do Hamlet and had no time for a New Series. I remember thinking that this was why I thought Tennant should have left at the end of Series 4 and handed over to someone new so we could have had a full series in 2009.

Several, and I mean, several people pointed out to me this wasn't the case and that Tennant only agreed to do Hamlet after learning there would be no full Series in 2009. I forget the reason why there wasn't a full series in 2009, was it financial I wonder?

Anyway, I did find it strange that RTD wrote all the Specials after this finale was so apparently his swansong. As someone else has already said, it was the true end of his Era, and the Specials were just an interim period to hand over the Series to Moffat with a New Doctor in 2010.

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Old 28-11-2012, 00:17
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I've never tended to find series finales in New Who to be among my favourites (Parting of the Ways is the exception). Generally, both RTD and Moffat seem to feel the need for the finale to be so colossal and epic, and they end up trying too hard and overegging it. This story is typical. We've got to drag in all the companions, and even the SJA and Torchwood mob, just to make it massive. It's just too much. And we get all this Dalek Caan prophesying "everlasting death to the most faithful companion" - which once again turns out to be bollocks. I prefer smaller scale stories like Midnight and Blink.

Bringing back Rose is a huge mistake, and I say that as someone who loved the character. The ending in Doomsday was poignant precisely because we knew that the Doctor and Rose wanted to be together more than anything and never could be. Now we find that they can after all - and the Doctor, for no reason whatsoever, sends her back to the alternate universe with a tenth-rate copy of himself, which she shows no real interest in. It's a crap ending, and actually retrospectively damages Doomsday.

And while we're at it, I hated the copy Doctor and the Doctor Donna.

I wasn't really upset by what happened to Donna, partly because her situation isn't really so bad (she has no awareness of what she's lost) and partly because I never really loved Donna the way I did Rose, Martha and Amy.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't find stuff to enjoy here, especially in The Stolen Earth. But it's not a favourite.
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Old 28-11-2012, 00:35
AdelaideGirl
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When I first joined this forum one of my apparent misconceptions was that the Specials only happened because Tennant wanted to do Hamlet and had no time for a New Series. I remember thinking that this was why I thought Tennant should have left at the end of Series 4 and handed over to someone new so we could have had a full series in 2009.

Several, and I mean, several people pointed out to me this wasn't the case and that Tennant only agreed to do Hamlet after learning there would be no full Series in 2009. I forget the reason why there wasn't a full series in 2009, was it financial I wonder?

Anyway, I did find it strange that RTD wrote all the Specials after this finale was so apparently his swansong. As someone else has already said, it was the true end of his Era, and the Specials were just an interim period to hand over the Series to Moffat with a New Doctor in 2010.

Really? I was certainly under the impression that the shortened season was to accommodate David's desire to do Hamlet and RTD wanting write other stuff. I can't think it would be financial Doctor Who makes money for the BBC. I wonder if Sherlock was part of it.
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Old 28-11-2012, 00:39
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Whilst this isn't my favourite finale, I still find it hugely enjoyable, and it was so full of surprises at the time - who knew that Mickey and Jackie would come back? And who could have guessed the cliffhanger to The Stolen Earth?

I've always loved Jack in DW - I'd love to see him in it again at some point - and Gareth David-Lloyd and Eve Myles are fantastic, particularly when they start firing at the Daleks. I love Gwen's war-cry!

I thought Julian Bleach was wonderful as Davros, and top marks for Nicholas Briggs for his voicing of Dalek Caan - a bit like a malevolent, crazy version of one of the aliens from the old 'Smash' adverts!

I can find very little to criticise about it. Perhaps it's a little too easily resolved (buttons being pushed), and again, Martha doesn't have nearly enough to do in the episode. However, I find that the small scale, emotional moments are so affecting. Tennant and Tate are brilliant throughout - Donna's fate is so much sadder than Rose's IMO, and the Doctor's desperate 'Help me!' to Wilf as Donna lies unconscious is one of the most wrenching moments of the whole episode. And a new side to Sylvia is revealed - we suddenly see how much she loves her daughter.

It ends with the Doctor alone, as all his companions leave him. I agree with Daveyboy, and others - it feels like the true end of the RTD era (though I did enjoy most of the specials). And, minor quibbles aside, I thought it was brilliant.
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