Apologies, I was refering to racist behaviour as
disgusting, i think you agree - it was as disgusting to treat a human being with racial contempt 40 years ago as it is now.

And i'm sure that said person would have the intelligence to realise if they were being abused or not.

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

I've never faced criminal proceedings for not holding the door open for somebody, or for not shaking somebody's hand, or for calling a woman I don't know "darling" or "love" (not that I do).

Those are matters of bad manners.

Yet, if I used the term monkey in reference to a black person, no matter how innocently, they or anybody who perceived it to be a racist incident could have me arrested for racial abuse (according to the MacPherson Report's definition of a racist incident).

If you honestly cannot see how basic freedoms are being curtailed there then you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

It's not just manners, it's law.

And it does not have to be used maliciously, it just has to be perceived that way or simply reported as such. And you're bang to rights. You're a racist. Judge, jury and executioner at the ready.

As I said in an earlier post, I would do my best not to use the word monkey in reference to any of my black friends, or any other black person, but only out of FEAR that it would be misconstrued.

Monkey is part of my vocabulary. And it will be used when somebody is acting mischievously or unruly.

In an equal society I would not have to temper my use of such an innocently descriptive word according to a person's race.

This is the sort of word that needs reclaiming, by the right thinking majority, so that it can be used freely without the nonsense racial connotations forced upon it by an ignorant minority.

We must not, as a society, bow to the dictatorship of a minority of racists who insist on warping our language to their own ends.

Otherwise we, the rational majority, lose.

Then they can use it with abandon, or go ahead and misappropriate another few words, knowing that we'll meekly back down to their attempts to make themselves seem relevant.

If you support the curtailment of our language and our freedoms, you support the racists. Congratulations.

There are occasions where you just have to let things slide, just let it wash over you like it's never happened, learn when to pick your battles.

IMO, It's not offensive as she phrased it, but "monkey" taunts have been used against black people for years and I remember friends reduced to tears, so it's best a comparison best avoided. It's used to suggest they are less than human, something that justified slavery and lynching, and of course we know where else it can all lead. Unfortunately, language has power and connotations so best think before you speak.

Even though we are all apes, and apes of all types can be beautiful.

David's beauty is a wonderful thing and I'm glad Rosemary derived pleasure from it.

Mailliday, I see where you're coming from, but IMO we're not yet at the point where we all feel comfortable enough with each others' intentions to relax about language. If races continue to mix as freely as they do here in London and black people are able to succeed in fields other than sport and rap music, maybe the next generation will have that freedom ... As it is, I don't mind being a bit sensitive to others' feelings.

Oh get off your high horse, Rosemary is not going to get thrown in the clink for comparing David to a monkey.

Personally I don't condone censorship and think some of the anti-racism laws do go too far, but that's not what this thread is about. This is about Rosemary's poor choice of words in describing one of her camp mates.

I don't think Rosemary should face legal action for what she said, and I can't recall anyone else making any such outlandish statement, frankly it seems like you have a bee in your bonnet about the subject and have chosen this thread to make your point in a somewhat melodramatic fashion.

Rosemary did not use the term 'monkey' to describe David's behaviour, she used it to describe his appearance. You should feel quite free to continue using the word 'monkey' to describe people's behaviour without fretting over the PC Brigade goose stepping into your home and dragging you off to court. However if you choose to describe black people you meet as looking like monkeys, don't be shocked if they are unable to appreciate your noble quest to reclaim the word and take offence.

There is a middle ground between the evil liberal intelligentsia sacrificing our freedom for some PC utopia and rampant, unchecked racial and religious bigotry. No harm in taking a common sense approach, not using words in a context that is liable to cause offense is a simple courtesy.

@ Jambob

Where did I suggest that anybody had suggested Rosemary should face legal action? I am merely talking about the wider ramifications of such Draconian legislation on our society and how ill-considered it is. Although, for your information, there is nothing to stop somebody reporting Rosemary's language to the police. Do you think that would be fair?

It doesn't matter whether you're describing behaviour or appearance. That's just semantics. The root of the matter remains the same. To use an innocent simile as she did, and for people to fly off the handle and insist she shouldn't be allowed to say such a thing, is censorship whether you like to admit it or not.

When it is written in law, as it is, it goes beyond a matter of courtesy. And when the automatic assumption is that it was meant to cause harm, it goes beyond courtesy. This is not a term manufactured to be used maliciously. It is an ordinary word in common usage. By decreeing that it cannot be used in certain circumstances it is you that is accepting its meaning as the racists have defined.

I refuse to.

That middle ground between "the evil liberal intelligentsia sacrificing our freedom for some PC utopia and rampant, unchecked racial and religious bigotry".... that's where I'm standing.

Given your insistence on handing the meaning and usage of a word over to the bigots yet proclaiming it to be a liberal, progressive move, I honestly don't know where you stand. Perhaps you'd like to ask yourself that very question?

I wasnt aware this was an offensive term until Caroline was bollocked for it in last year's BB...

I just knew there would be a thread about this today... really sometimes you must let your eyes override what your ears hear- she clearly loves the man and anyone with half a braincell would not even make an issue of this as there is none - but so many jumped on the bandwagon- my god have none of you ever said something that in hindsight you shouldn't- there was no malace intended by Rosemary- Eric is far more offensive and he is intentionally so

Exactly

Why is looking like a monkey a bad thing? That's what I would like to know. People love monkeys don't they?

Actually, thinking about it, I love elephants but I don't think my mother in law would appreciate being called one.

The effects of draconian hate speech legislation on society and whether or not it is offensive to compare black people to monkeys are two separate issues. You seem to think I'm saying that Rosemary should not be allowed to use the term 'monkey' in describing David, I'm not. I don't think Rosemary should face censure or legal consequences, I just consider it to be potentially offensive and a poor choice of words.

I am not 'handing the meaning and usage of the word over to bigots' that is a completely fallacious argument. The fact is the word has been used as a pejorative against black people for many years and comparisons to monkeys or apes have deeper ramifications than just being offensive characterisations of physical appearance. Black people being categorized as sub-human led to some horrific abuses in our not so distant past and there remains an understandable sensitivity to that kind of attitude and language. You can't just choose which words are offensive and in what context, language doesn't work like that, meanings and associations develop organically over time. Do you think you can reclaim the 'N' word too? After all it just means 'black' there is nothing inherently negative about it.

I haven't noticed anyone saying that Rosemary 'shouldn't be allowed to say such a thing', most people are just aware that it was something of a faux pas given the history of the type of comparison she drew.

I don't consider it to be a particularly 'progressive, liberal move' to refrain from calling black people monkeys to be honest, it's just a matter of understanding the connotations of that particular simile and having the common decency not to use it.

Where I stand is pretty straight forward. I don't think it should be illegal to call black people 'monkeys' or anything else, but I would not consider it socially acceptable and am aware that it could be offensive.

I understand your broader point about the wider ramifications of legislating against hate-speech, but it is not really relevant to this discussion and your rant on the subject was rather miss-placed. to paraphrase Limahl from the 80's 'this isn't a political correctness gone mad moment'.

I think anyone who thinks that Rosemary was being racist are crackers.

i see the keyboard warriors and pc brigade are out in force....

New generations are sometimes unable to grasp the dialect of previous generations.
The old generation aint going to change for you, my grandma isn't going to suck your PC eggs.

This forum tries too hard to be the antithesis of the Daily Mail on occasions.

Heres my last word on it I hope (Or not !!)
.It was a very unfortunate turn of phrase with ,I presume , no harm or malice intended .Having said that and being of Rosemarys age she should have known better than to use that word regardless of context in that instance . Whether we agree or not with the meaning this word had attached to it now or not is not the point .The point is we should know its not not a word to be used and accept that
I in my youth used word now considered not acceptable, I could list them off but dont want a ban , Rosemary would have too but I have informed myself and learned that I no longer can use them as its seen as an insult despite my not meaning it as such. I respect that others may take it as an insult and could be hurt and so I dont use them

We all have to accept despite disagreeing or not meaning it that some words hurt others and not use them .For example on DS I have seen the Irish called Paddys . It can be meant harmlessy or it can be a nasty dig and often it is . .Only the poster knows how he means it .But it is best not used at all as it has hurtful meanings and best left unsaid despite not meaning harm .
And so we have to accept that some word can hurt or offend and avoid them as we dont know when they will offend despite our not meaning to .

Rosemarys main boo boo here was she was over excited and as she didnt engage her brain before speaking .Maybe she should , maybe she will in future , maybe she will have to .But she should IMO learn from it

I agree

My Mum is over 90 and is very aware of what she can use and would be mortified if she unintenionally hurt anyone .She often asks the grandchildren if a word is okay to use , or waht word is now acceptable .She is like that though and very keen to move on with the times .

I'm another that is sure that Rosemary didn't intend anything nasty with her comment. She is from the same generation that I am and 'little monkey' was often used to describe an impish person (not necessarily just a child) - it was often used as a way of giving a very mild rebuke that meant to relay that no real offence was taken but the behaviour had 'been noted'.


However, times have changed and with your freedoms, Malliday, come responsibility not to knowingly use a phrase in the presence of someone that it could offend. If I was a black person, I don't think I'd like to be referred to as a monkey in any context. There was also a time that the word 'spastic' was used in a playful way to someone that you thought was being silly or stupid - that is seldom used nowadays either. Sometimes, things change for the better. No-one is saying the word monkey shouldn't be used; just be considerate about whom you are using it on.

...

Why should she have to be on tenterhooks if in her heart she means no offence?

I laughed at myself too !!

She not on tenderhooks at all , she sits down and asks the young ones and they have a laugh sometimes when she tells them the words used way back then . She is just very careful not to hurt at all .Thats how she is .

Thanks Jimmy for chapter and verse. I did have a sharp intake of breath myself, only because of the PC brigade. A bit like when Clare Short talked about 'mongol babies' earlier this year - PC brigade out in full regalia - but that term has been used forever - until PC brigade got hold of it.

There is nothing at all to be made from this, she adores David and it was just a choice of a word that is not used any more in relation to black people. I think David would be less than bothered and would not appreciate this being hijacked on his behalf. He can fight his own battles and would talk to Rosemary himself if and when he hears about it.

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