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Old 30-11-2012, 10:38
daveyboy7472
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Reading through yesterdayís thread, it would appear I am n a minority in not liking this story so much but hey, whatís new?!

I must admit when I first saw the trailer for this, it looked quite good and considering we had to wait 7 months before we could watch it properly, after all that time I thought it was a huge letdown. I watched this again yesterday, probably for the 3rd/4th time and I felt exactly the same about it as I did first time around. I do think the scenes where all the crew become affected are reasonably tense and scary to a small degree, but aside from that, I just find the whole story flat and at times almost uninteresting.

Yes, there are some good parts of the story. The Doctor struggling to stay or go, his conversations with Adelaide, first about when she was a girl and then telling her she was going to die in the airlock, plus him walking away from the base as it is overcome by water, before finally deciding to go back. Plus the use of the gadget robot to retrieve the TARDIS and indeed the gadget robot itself were good. The best part of the story for me was the last part set on Earth. In this scene it was almost as if Adelaide was playing The Doctor role in trying to knock him down a peg or two. Her defiant death and the Ood appearing and him realising heíd gone too far were excellent and a nice lead into his final adventure.

Iíve mentioned this numerous times in the past, but the whole Time Lord victorious really didnít work for me as a concept. I actually found myself really disliking The Doctorís behaviour when he came back to the base to rescue the situation and it got even worse when he took the survivors back to Earth. I thought he became an ass and The Doctor should never be an ass, heís above all that. As with The Twin Dilemma with the Sixth Doctorís debut, The Doctor being unlikeable is not something I like to see. Itís okay if heís possessed for a plot device but to naturally become this unlikeable person which in this case was so against his usual cheerful characterisation....no, not for me. I know some people liked it but I didnít.

I thought Lindsay Duncan was good as Adelaide, as were the actors who played the water possessed crew and best of all, after nearly four years, RTD didnít kill of a character I thought was...well, just nice and sexy and that was Mia Bennett. Really thought she was going to cop it.

Aside from that, I canít think of anything else to say about this episode. I know a lot of you guys love it but for me it was the worst of the Specials....sorry!

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Old 30-11-2012, 10:45
CD93
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Time Lord Victorious was the moment I knew I was ready for 10 to go... then it just avalanched from there.
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Old 30-11-2012, 11:32
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I quite like this story - you can't really go wrong with a base-under-siege story.

The monsters were pretty scary and the claustrophobic, tense atmosphere gives the tale added verve.

Yes, at times it was a bit slow, but overall an enjoyable piece.
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Old 30-11-2012, 12:09
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The reason I liked the Timelord Victorius is mainly because of all the regeneration hype surrounding th specials, particularly this one and the next story. Having the Doctor fall to the point where he just doesn't care any more, and is sick of baring the guilt of being sole survivor of the Time Lord race was the perfect place to go just before a regeneration, and as Matt Smith's incarnation seems to have healed these emotional wounds somewhat, I think that was well handled. I didn't like they way the Doctor behaved on Mars, far from it, but for me that added to the excitement of the episode, as it was a place the Doctor hadn't mentally been before, and the Doctor acting as the bad guy was thrilling and scary all in one.
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Old 30-11-2012, 13:13
saladfingers81
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For me probably one of RTDs finest moments and by far and away the best of the Specials. It was one of those moments when his era excelled because he didn't shy away from making dark, adult and difficult decisions with the show. It was genuinely scary in a way it hadn't been for too long and most of the ensemble cast were magnificent. Tennant was in particular on top form and the whole thing set us up beautifully for the incredible end to Ten that sadly we never got because after taking a chance with this episode RTD woefully copped out and reversed every interesting thing The Waters of Mars was building towards in the opening minutes of The End of Time.

We went from exciting drama and a character raging against the dying of the light while he headed inexorably towards the inevitable and tragic demise to a bumbling prat in a hat and garlands twatting around with Tardis central locking in the blink of an eye. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt want DW to be too dark all the time as I think it thrives on a mixture of all things but this was one time when it would have been appropriate and felt like a massive anticlimax for me anyway.

I also find it hard to understand why anyone wouldn't want to see a new side to the Doctor. Of course he can be 'an ass', irrational, angry, confused. I think if he becomes an infallible archetype then where is the mystery? He becomes stale and boring like Superman or Roger Moore era Bond. Always doing the expected. I think the Doctor has always been unpredictable and erratic and Timelord Victorious played into that. I also thought if followed through properly it would have had a sweet irony to it that the much loved Tennant, seen by many as THE doctor (at least in the new era) and lavished with so much praise and fandom hyperbole, would see his Doctor fall victim to his own 'hype' and lose control.

Somewhere, in an alternate galaxy there is a version of TEOT that lives up to the brilliant set up Waters of Mars provided. I like to think.
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Old 30-11-2012, 13:49
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I enjoyed this one. Mostly. The name of the base, Bowie One. The whole "should I or shouldn't I fix this" dilemma. The scary aliens. The tense claustrophobic situation. All good.

However...

I hated the resolution.

Firstly, I couldn't buy the Doctor deciding to leave the base. It just felt wrong. I was relieved when he decided to do something about it and return.

Secondly, I couldn't buy his solution. Taking Adelaid back to Earth? Having bult it up as such a fixed point in time issue, I don't believe the Doctor would ever have done that. No. Matter. What. Another answer was needed. Such as taking the survivors into the future or a distant planet so that their deaths would remain a mystery on Earth and the future would be unchanged.

Thirdly, I couldn't buy Adelaid's "solution". I just don't believe she would have commited suicide like that.

Fourthly, I don't believe Earth's history would have remained unchanged with Adelaid's death by suicide instead of in the mysterious destruction of Bowie One. Adelaid's sacrifice would have been pointless.How could suicide have inspired anyone?

Good story, well executed ruined by an absolute illogical and downer of an ending.
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Old 30-11-2012, 14:07
Corwin
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Secondly, I couldn't buy his solution. Taking Adelaid back to Earth? Having bult it up as such a fixed point in time issue, I don't believe the Doctor would ever have done that. No. Matter. What. Another answer was needed. Such as taking the survivors into the future or a distant planet so that their deaths would remain a mystery on Earth and the future would be unchanged.

Thirdly, I couldn't buy Adelaid's "solution". I just don't believe she would have commited suicide like that.

Fourthly, I don't believe Earth's history would have remained unchanged with Adelaid's death by suicide instead of in the mysterious destruction of Bowie One. Adelaid's sacrifice would have been pointless.How could suicide have inspired anyone?
The Doctor taking them back to Earth is to show that he has been corrupted by the Power. He is now the Lord of Time and wants Time to know that.

Adelaide's suicide was probably explained by saying she got back to Earth and found out she was infected. She killed herself to stop the Plague from infecting Earth.

In this way she would still go on to inspire her grandaughter.


While I do think this is the best of the Specials I wasn't that fond of the Time Lord Victorious idea but as said above the whole thing was dropped by the next story anyway.
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Old 30-11-2012, 14:52
daveyboy7472
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I also find it hard to understand why anyone wouldn't want to see a new side to the Doctor. Of course he can be 'an ass', irrational, angry, confused. I think if he becomes an infallible archetype then where is the mystery? He becomes stale and boring like Superman or Roger Moore era Bond. Always doing the expected. I think the Doctor has always been unpredictable and erratic and Timelord Victorious played into that. I also thought if followed through properly it would have had a sweet irony to it that the much loved Tennant, seen by many as THE doctor (at least in the new era) and lavished with so much praise and fandom hyperbole, would see his Doctor fall victim to his own 'hype' and lose control.
The Doctor has never, ever been infallible, and he's never been boring(though I disagree Roger Moore's Bond was boring but that's another subject for another day). I think it was Barry Letts who described him as turning up on his white horse but leaving the shining armour at home(or something similar but you get the idea).

I don't have a problem with The Doctor being angry, confused, irrational or seeing different sides to him. Matt Smith has portrayed all these sides of The Doctor in his portrayal and it works wonderfully.

However, in this instance I think it went too far. This Doctor downed authority who think I'm the big I am more than any other Doctor. Take for example the father in The Idiot's Lantern, a typical example of someone who was an ass who The Doctor shouted down and put in his place. Now we had The Doctor himself being an ass and that's part of the reason I didn't think it worked. It seemed hypocritical in relation to what had come before. And it was so far removed from his usual portrayal. I could understand some other Doctor's like the First, or the Sixth being like that because being grouchy was part of who they were, but not this Doctor. In fact if it had been the Eleventh Doctor I could believe it more because he has moments when he gets dark and does dark things but the Tenth Doctor was on the whole an upbeat Doctor with a lot of emotional stuff thrown in but I never thought he had the capability to reach this point.

That's the way I see it anyway.

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Old 30-11-2012, 14:59
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The Doctor taking them back to Earth is to show that he has been corrupted by the Power. He is now the Lord of Time and wants Time to know that.

Adelaide's suicide was probably explained by saying she got back to Earth and found out she was infected. She killed herself to stop the Plague from infecting Earth.

In this way she would still go on to inspire her grandaughter.


While I do think this is the best of the Specials I wasn't that fond of the Time Lord Victorious idea but as said above the whole thing was dropped by the next story anyway.
I understand about the writer's choice to depict Timelord Victorious. I just happen not to like it when he's supposed to be a heroic figure. Heroes are allowed to have weaknesses and make mistakes, but the thing that defines them as heroes is "doing the right thing", which this decision clearly isn't.

What plague? Earth is completely unaware of the "special" water on Mars at this point. All the investigators would have had is a dead Adelaid (at her own hands) and the mystery of how she got there. If she had been infected (which she wasn't, as far as I can tell) shooting herself would not have destroyed the special water....
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:09
Corwin
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What plague? Earth is completely unaware of the "special" water on Mars at this point. All the investigators would have had is a dead Adelaid (at her own hands) and the mystery of how she got there. If she had been infected (which she wasn't, as far as I can tell) shooting herself would not have destroyed the special water....
Did you forget about the two survivors?

They told the story of what happened (it's shown in the press stories at the end which also mention the Doctors involvement).

And no she wasn't infected but I'm sure thats the way the Story would have been told. She died a Hero saving Earth from the Martian plague.
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:17
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Reading through yesterdayís thread, it would appear I am n a minority in not liking this story so much but hey, whatís new?!

I must admit when I first saw the trailer for this, it looked quite good and considering we had to wait 7 months before we could watch it properly, after all that time I thought it was a huge letdown. I watched this again yesterday, probably for the 3rd/4th time and I felt exactly the same about it as I did first time around. I do think the scenes where all the crew become affected are reasonably tense and scary to a small degree, but aside from that, I just find the whole story flat and at times almost uninteresting.

Yes, there are some good parts of the story. The Doctor struggling to stay or go, his conversations with Adelaide, first about when she was a girl and then telling her she was going to die in the airlock, plus him walking away from the base as it is overcome by water, before finally deciding to go back. Plus the use of the gadget robot to retrieve the TARDIS and indeed the gadget robot itself were good. The best part of the story for me was the last part set on Earth. In this scene it was almost as if Adelaide was playing The Doctor role in trying to knock him down a peg or two. Her defiant death and the Ood appearing and him realising heíd gone too far were excellent and a nice lead into his final adventure.

Iíve mentioned this numerous times in the past, but the whole Time Lord victorious really didnít work for me as a concept. I actually found myself really disliking The Doctorís behaviour when he came back to the base to rescue the situation and it got even worse when he took the survivors back to Earth. I thought he became an ass and The Doctor should never be an ass, heís above all that. As with The Twin Dilemma with the Sixth Doctorís debut, The Doctor being unlikeable is not something I like to see. Itís okay if heís possessed for a plot device but to naturally become this unlikeable person which in this case was so against his usual cheerful characterisation....no, not for me. I know some people liked it but I didnít.

I thought Lindsay Duncan was good as Adelaide, as were the actors who played the water possessed crew and best of all, after nearly four years, RTD didnít kill of a character I thought was...well, just nice and sexy and that was Mia Bennett. Really thought she was going to cop it.

Aside from that, I canít think of anything else to say about this episode. I know a lot of you guys love it but for me it was the worst of the Specials....sorry!

I really didnt like this on first viewing, however it's grown on me since. What could have been your average base under seige story becomes a really powerful story that pushes the Doctor to the limit. David puts in a really great performnca here and I dont actually mind all the Doctor going crazy stuff, I just thing it went a bit to far in the next story. Here, it's great though, and the scenes where the Doctors walking away from the base but he can hear the shit hitting the fan, where he remembers all the last of the time lord stuff after the rocket blows up, and where he comes to the rescue, are really great scenes. One thing I dont understand, why is Adelaide's grandaughter so important. Would it really make that much of an imapct, all this Mars stuff. I find it hard to believe it would JUST be her grans inspiration that made her want to be an astronaut, and surely the people who created the first hyperspace ship were just as important as the captain. No one would have heard of Neil Armstrong if not for all the scientists and engineers working on the rocket and the eagle. I just dont feel her living would really make that much of a difference?

But apart from that very small nitpck, this is a brilliant story. The Mars base os really well realized with the garden and stuff, and the Flood Zombies are very eerie and, if I'd been younger, they'd have probably been quite scary. There's some really great acting here and I love Gadget Gadget+the reference to the Ice Warriors, though it would have been nice to get more than a reference #9about time we had an Ice Warrior story). Also really like the music here to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj_dD74OSrE

A brilliant story. Everyones going on about the time lord victorious stuff, but here's much more likeable here than in End of Time. He's just sent into dark territory here, in the next story however he just goes all cry baby-ish and whiny. You do say, Daveyboy, that you dont like an unlikeable Doctor, but I think it's important to see that the Doctor's vulnerable sometimes e.g. like in Midnight which you liked. He's not perfect and it's important to see how he could, sometimes, go a bit to far. It's always quite fitting considering the Master's return, as the Doctor's really similar to the Master here and, as we know they used to be friends, something like this is how I'd imagine the Master turning to the dark side. I imagine him being a good guy, but then going a bit to far, getting a bit to angry with his enemies, or wanting his reward, as indicated in the next story. But of course, that all just in my head.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb7...-part-4_travel

Hardly the best story ever, not even the best 10th Doctor story, bit I di quite like it, and it's certainly the best of the Specials after Planet of the Dead
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:18
davrosdodebird
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I agree with that, corwin. Whilst in script terms, she killed herself because she was supposed to be dead but thanks to the Doctor, was still alive. Adelaide understood that in order for time to progress normally, she would have to die.
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:19
GDK
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OK. I always assumed they'd disappear so as not to change history, and I hadn't spotted any reference to a heroic sacrifice in the web page.

Still didn't like though!
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:22
daveyboy7472
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You do say, Daveyboy, that you dont like an unlikeable Doctor, but I think it's important to see that the Doctor's vulnerable sometimes e.g. like in Midnight which you liked.
There's a difference between vulnerable and unlikeable. The Doctor wasn't unlikeable in Midnight.

And being a Fifth Doctor fan shows I like vulnerable, which was the essence of his character but again, he wasn't unlikeable, just the opposite in fact.

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Old 30-11-2012, 15:26
GDK
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I agree with that, corwin. Whilst in script terms, she killed herself because she was supposed to be dead but thanks to the Doctor, was still alive. Adelaide understood that in order for time to progress normally, she would have to die.
OK, but she couldn't have known that the other survivors would explain her death and "spin" it as a noble sacrifice (assuming the correctness of corwin's explanation of how history remained unchanged).
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:29
Sara_Peplow
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One thing I noticed. First person infected is Margaret Cain. Is that a reference to Cain in Allien John Hurts charcter?. First one to be infected and killed. Pretty famous screen death.
Liked Adelaide shame she felt the only way to keep the future safe was suicide.10 did mention it to Wilf in TEOT.Saying "I'm not a innocent I've taken lives I was worse I got clever convinced people to take their own". Something like that. He still ended up saving two lives. Doctor allways has the dark in him. He just manages to control it most of the time.
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:30
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There's a difference between vulnerable and unlikeable. The Doctor wasn't unlikeable in Midnight.

And being a Fifth Doctor fan shows I like vulnerable, which was the essence of his character but again, he wasn't unlikeable, just the opposite in fact.

I dont mean really unlikeable (hell, the Doctor was the only really likeable character in Mdnight, the only one who was able to keep their head anyway), but different. I think, with any character, especially one as familiar as the Doctor, we should be able to see new and different sides to him. Thats quite rare in Dr Who, it actually being quite sircom-ish. That's why this episode is interesting, even though I didnt really like it at first
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Old 30-11-2012, 15:37
daveyboy7472
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I dont mean really unlikeable (hell, the Doctor was the only really likeable character in Mdnight, the only one who was able to keep their head anyway), but different. I think, with any character, especially one as familiar as the Doctor, we should be able to see new and different sides to him. Thats quite rare in Dr Who, it actually being quite sircom-ish. That's why this episode is interesting, even though I didnt really like it at first
Yes, it is good to see new sides but not sides that make him as far removed from his usual characterisation as possible. As I said above, it's not suited to this Doctor but maybe those others I mentioned. Either way, I still don't like to see it. Nothing is going to change my mind on this but I appreciate others take a different viewpoint.

The following episode wasn't much better but more of that tomorrow.

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Old 30-11-2012, 16:25
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An excellent episode, one of the best 'base under siege' stories.

Wonderful to see The Doctors frustration with Timelord rules finally come to the fore.

A stunning payoff to an arc that has been peppered throughout series 1-4. The last Timelord still playing by Timelord rules and all the frustration and loss it as caused and continues to cause him.

The scene where he has to walk away from the base whilst hearing the carnage going via his headset is wonderful.

Tennant is outstanding in this episode, one of his finest performances, and there are many to choose from.

Love this episode, it is so good even 'gadget gadget' gets a cheer from me at the end.
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Old 30-11-2012, 16:34
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I felt like the ending was just rushed and poor really. Ten goes from the 'Timelord Victorious' speech to 'I've gone too far' in a blink of an eye (or a shot of a gun).

I just thought it was too quick a rise, and then too quick a fall. Without really exploring what could have been interesting concept as the Doctor drunk on his power and superiority.

I just can't really get my head fully around the 'fixed point in time thing'. It just seems arbitary to say..yep, this can be changed, nope that can't be changed, and pretty much on thw him of the writers for whatever dramatic angle they want to write. Although I suppose thats part of the timey-whimey ascept of Dr Who, that no rules are really hard and fast over these things.
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Old 30-11-2012, 16:39
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The reason I liked the Timelord Victorius is mainly because of all the regeneration hype surrounding th specials, particularly this one and the next story. Having the Doctor fall to the point where he just doesn't care any more, and is sick of baring the guilt of being sole survivor of the Time Lord race was the perfect place to go just before a regeneration, and as Matt Smith's incarnation seems to have healed these emotional wounds somewhat, I think that was well handled. I didn't like they way the Doctor behaved on Mars, far from it, but for me that added to the excitement of the episode, as it was a place the Doctor hadn't mentally been before, and the Doctor acting as the bad guy was thrilling and scary all in one.
This was basically my reaction. Time Lord Victorious took the Doctor to a really dark place, which was exciting, and I looked forward to this new hubristic attitude leading directly to his downfall like something from a Greek tragedy.

Unfortunately, this mood was completely shattered by the silly beginning of the Christmas special (yes, at that point he had become simply an ass) and by the way his end was brought about: not by some dark act of hubris but by a typical Doctorly self-sacrifice, only made less palatable by his evident distaste for doing it as shown by his long noisy self-important whinge. But that's another story....
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Old 30-11-2012, 17:05
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I felt like the ending was just rushed and poor really. Ten goes from the 'Timelord Victorious' speech to 'I've gone too far' in a blink of an eye (or a shot of a gun).

I just thought it was too quick a rise, and then too quick a fall. Without really exploring what could have been interesting concept as the Doctor drunk on his power and superiority.

I just can't really get my head fully around the 'fixed point in time thing'. It just seems arbitary to say..yep, this can be changed, nope that can't be changed, and pretty much on thw him of the writers for whatever dramatic angle they want to write. Although I suppose thats part of the timey-whimey ascept of Dr Who, that no rules are really hard and fast over these things.
Well quite. He came out of his ego trip and realised what happened was because of him, and someone died. That wouldn't jolt you back to reality?
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Old 30-11-2012, 18:27
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This works wonderfully well because it has exactly the right combination of "A" plot and "B" story/character arc. The main story is visceral in its impact upon the viewer; the monsters are genuinely disturbing, the pace is frenetic, the mood is threatening the conclusion is grim - another sacrifice witnessed by the Doctor.

Putting the main story aside, and you can tell I really liked it, it is the initial dilemma, Timelord Victorious solution and epiphany of self-understanding that raises this "special" head and shoulders above the rest. It is important we are supposed to dislike the Doctor here; RTD uses the theme of a Doctor bereft of a companion and takes it to it's ultimate conclusion. He shows us a version of that Timelords that exposes the unpleasant arrogance and power driven nature of their species. This sets us up for their return and plants in the audience's mind the thought that these are dangerous creatures. The Doctor is not by nature a hero. Early Hartnell defines himself as a wanderer and does not evolve into an interventionist on the side of good until several stories in. Likewise, Troughton's Doctor is initially shown to be detached from events with unclear motives until he explicitly stepped up to the role of hero. We see these notions explored in the most recent incarnation of the Doctor; without his companions the Doctor defaults to a default alienness which can be dangerous.

Here. RTD strips him of our assumptions of who he is, puts our favourite character under immense pressure and we see him make the wrong choice (and who would not make the same choice if we had the power to act?)

At the last, it is a "companion" whose sacrifice enables him to have an epiphany; to gain a sense of universal and self-understanding. RTD re-affirms this is our hero through showing him at his most vulnerable and despairing; he has him step- back from the edge and makes him a worthy protagonist to face his own people who have willingly jumped right over that edge. The threat in the concluding stories will be a whole civilization of Timelords Victorious and the only thing that will stand in their way will be a rebel who has chosen a different path - a rebel whose fate is bound to that of a very human companion.

In "The Waters of Mars" we have the series set-up that has been missing from the previous specials, we have our hero morally compromised, but then "rescued", we understand the threat of the true Timelord Victorious nature, and we have a blinking good story too.
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Old 30-11-2012, 18:50
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Adelaide's suicide was probably explained by saying she got back to Earth and found out she was infected. She killed herself to stop the Plague from infecting Earth.

In this way she would still go on to inspire her grandaughter.
Adelaide committed suicide as she realised she had to. Since her encounter with the Dalek as a child she always wondered why it did not kill her on sight, but it could not do as her death was a always fixed to the events on Mars. When the Doctor reveals that she is to die in the airlock, the Dalek moment makes sense and, whilst still attempting to escape for the sake of the team, she accepts what is to happen for the sake of her family future. When the Doctor attempts to change this, she cannot accept it and commits suicide, restoring the fixed event, inspiring the human race (and her family) and reminding the Doctor that he had gone too far.
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Old 30-11-2012, 21:21
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Double post...
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