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Charlie won for three reasons. |
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#51 |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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I think it is, I just felt Ashley was equally as nice, and more entertaining. Charlie is a genuinely lovely person though so I'm not 'outraged', I just thought that should have been Ashley's win.
I cant see that either girl has been more entertaining than the other. They have both been very nice. |
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#52 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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It's very funny seeing people try and rationalise the sudden upsurge in votes for Charlie as "maybe they just liked her" and dismissing the Ashley fans' disappointment as sour grapes.
I think if people are honest and rational about it it's quite clear that the reasons listed in the opening post are quite valid indicators of what won it for Charlie, along with the extra 1m casual voters the show is likely to have garnered tonight voting for the familiar face rather than the unknown. If this is not the case then why was Ashley clearly leading all the polls, bookies' favourite and even leading the vote at the start of the show, only to be pipped at the post? Why have I read comments from Eastenders fans on this and other sites clearly intimating that they voted for her because she's on Eastenders? I've also seen similar comments saying they're glad a Brit won it. And of course numerous comments congratulating "princess Kiki". The evidence is all there. Ignore it if you like and dismiss those that thought Ashley was the obvious winner as being bitter, but it won't make the four factors any less relevant. The fact that Dec said the vote was very close suggests that any and all of these factors are likely to have swayed it in Charlie's favour. It's just a shame that the winner has clearly been chosen on familiarity rather than on which of them truly deserved it over the course of the three weeks. |
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#53 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,270
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Quote:
It's very funny seeing people try and rationalise the sudden upsurge in votes for Charlie as "maybe they just liked her" and dismissing the Ashley fans' disappointment as sour grapes.
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#54 |
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: No longer in plaster. :D
Posts: 2,105
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Quote:
It's very funny seeing people try and rationalise the sudden upsurge in votes for Charlie as "maybe they just liked her" and dismissing the Ashley fans' disappointment as sour grapes.
I think if people are honest and rational about it it's quite clear that the reasons listed in the opening post are quite valid indicators of what won it for Charlie, along with the extra 1m casual voters the show is likely to have garnered tonight voting for the familiar face rather than the unknown. If this is not the case then why was Ashley clearly leading all the polls, bookies' favourite and even leading the vote at the start of the show, only to be pipped at the post? Why have I read comments from Eastenders fans on this and other sites clearly intimating that they voted for her because she's on Eastenders? I've also seen similar comments saying they're glad a Brit won it. And of course numerous comments congratulating "princess Kiki". The evidence is all there. Ignore it if you like and dismiss those that thought Ashley was the obvious winner as being bitter, but it won't make the four factors any less relevant. The fact that Dec said the vote was very close suggests that any and all of these factors are likely to have swayed it in Charlie's favour. It's just a shame that the winner has clearly been chosen on familiarity rather than on which of them truly deserved it over the course of the three weeks.
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#55 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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She won it for me for 3 reasons
1. She was fun 2. She tried her best at everything 3. She was strong and stood up for people. |
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#56 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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I did think Ashley was more entertaining - but Charlie won my vote for her kindness when Limahl and Rosemary were suffering.
.. It crossed my mind that she knew it would be aired, and took the opportunity to come across well to the viewers. I may have been wrong though
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#57 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Stockport
Posts: 2,072
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I think it is, I just felt Ashley was equally as nice, and more entertaining. Charlie is a genuinely lovely person though so I'm not 'outraged', I just thought that should have been Ashley's win.
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I had a more cynical outlook on that
.. It crossed my mind that she knew it would be aired, and took the opportunity to come across well to the viewers. I may have been wrong though
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#58 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,707
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Quote:
It's very funny seeing people try and rationalise the sudden upsurge in votes for Charlie as "maybe they just liked her" and dismissing the Ashley fans' disappointment as sour grapes.
I think if people are honest and rational about it it's quite clear that the reasons listed in the opening post are quite valid indicators of what won it for Charlie, along with the extra 1m casual voters the show is likely to have garnered tonight voting for the familiar face rather than the unknown. If this is not the case then why was Ashley clearly leading all the polls, bookies' favourite and even leading the vote at the start of the show, only to be pipped at the post? Why have I read comments from Eastenders fans on this and other sites clearly intimating that they voted for her because she's on Eastenders? I've also seen similar comments saying they're glad a Brit won it. And of course numerous comments congratulating "princess Kiki". The evidence is all there. Ignore it if you like and dismiss those that thought Ashley was the obvious winner as being bitter, but it won't make the four factors any less relevant. The fact that Dec said the vote was very close suggests that any and all of these factors are likely to have swayed it in Charlie's favour. It's just a shame that the winner has clearly been chosen on familiarity rather than on which of them truly deserved it over the course of the three weeks. Whilst I watch the show and read these threads, I don't pay any attention to the betting odds or follow the media coverage, but if these were showing Ashley in the lead then they could have galvanised people who preferred Charlie but otherwise would not have bothered into casting a vote for their preference, or those who had already voted for her into throwing an extra vote her way. The points in the OP were equally as true yesterday when the final two were announced as they were during the show, so why was Ashley apparently ahead at the top of the show? I don't doubt that people voted for her because they are EE fans, but this will have been cancelled out to an extent by: - EE fans who hate her character and so didn't want the actress to win and voted against her (I know it seems daft, but these people do exist, you can find examples of them in this very forum) - people who will have voted for Ashley because they loved the PCDs. On the Kiki question, I suspect that this will have lost Charlie votes as well as gained them, as people don't like to think they are being manipulated. There is no way of knowing how the one stacks up against the other. I agree that the extra viewers who only tune in for the final are more likely to know Charlie than Ashley, but we don't know what proportion of them vote and what basis they use for voting. Perhaps some of them base it on what they see onscreen on the night rather than 'I know her/don't know her'? The other things we don't know are: - what happened to the 'David' vote, ie how people who lost their favourite on Friday night voted in the final. - what impact on voting preferences Ashley's greater share of airtime in the first week had, when she had the disruption secret task - what impact on voting preferences the amount of Ashley coverage there was in the Ant and Dec links in the main show and the Joe Swash crush in Now had. If we're honest and rational about it, all we know for sure is that Charlie got more votes. The rest is speculation. |
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#59 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 65,752
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Quote:
It's very funny seeing people try and rationalise the sudden upsurge in votes for Charlie as "maybe they just liked her" and dismissing the Ashley fans' disappointment as sour grapes.
I think if people are honest and rational about it it's quite clear that the reasons listed in the opening post are quite valid indicators of what won it for Charlie, along with the extra 1m casual voters the show is likely to have garnered tonight voting for the familiar face rather than the unknown. If this is not the case then why was Ashley clearly leading all the polls, bookies' favourite and even leading the vote at the start of the show, only to be pipped at the post? Why have I read comments from Eastenders fans on this and other sites clearly intimating that they voted for her because she's on Eastenders? I've also seen similar comments saying they're glad a Brit won it. And of course numerous comments congratulating "princess Kiki". The evidence is all there. Ignore it if you like and dismiss those that thought Ashley was the obvious winner as being bitter, but it won't make the four factors any less relevant. The fact that Dec said the vote was very close suggests that any and all of these factors are likely to have swayed it in Charlie's favour. It's just a shame that the winner has clearly been chosen on familiarity rather than on which of them truly deserved it over the course of the three weeks. ![]() Obviously it's not just going to be one thing, it's going to be a combination of factors which will have varying levels of effect. I don't know how representative of people in general this is but when you're getting celebrities on '...Out of Here Now' saying that they want Charlie to win because she's British, would this not be a reflection of the public at large to some extent? I don't know. It's a genuine question I ask. If it is then I don't really understand how anybody could be proud if she won based on that criteria. |
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#60 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Best person hardly ever wins these shows, as was shown again tonight.
We know who's the real winner Ashley
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#61 |
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If that's your reasoning then Helen should have made it to the final 5 too as she was in Corrie an equally popular show according to many to Eastenders.
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#62 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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@norbitonite
Sorry, but my point still remains the most rational explanation. The points in the OP were not equally true yesterday, because they were not voting for the winner. It was not an either/or choice. However, that does not mean that they weren't already contributing to the level of support Charlie received to get this far in the competition. Regarding the Eastenders votes, it's fallacious to surmise that people wouldn't vote for her because of her character. The vast majority of Eastenders fans love to hate her character and actually admire her personally for her portrayal of such a vile character. The percentage of people who would vote against her for that reason would be utterly miniscule. Equally, the Pussycat Dolls' most successful album sold 1.2m copies in the UK, 7 years ago, and Ashley is quite clearly one of the least recognisable members. Meanwhile, Eastenders is watched by between 5-10m people every other day. Ashley's support from Pussycat Dolls fans can only logically have paled in comparison to the number of Eastenders fans rooting for Charlie. On the question of Kiki, as you said, it's hard to judge. But I think it's again only logical to assume that the situation would have pulled at heart strings, particularly amongst female viewers. Ashley had no such emotional capital working in her favour. Nothing at all. As for the casual voter voting on what they see onscreen on the night rather than 'I know her/don't know her', even if true all it'd mean is that the swinging votes weren't based on a fair representation of the two. It'd mean they were based on highlights, designed to make the person look interesting, the final challenge and fleeting one-liners rather than the broader picture and who genuinely deserved it over the course of the three weeks. That might suggest why Ashley was ahead in the votes at the start, thanks to regular viewers whose minds were already made up, and why Charlie surged through to win late on thanks to votes from casual viewers who only saw the way she was represented in the final And finally, I think it is an absolute given that the voting public would favour the Brit, and I've read comments to endorse that assumption. I think the coup de grace is that we could not compile a similar list of contributing factors that might influence people to vote for Ashley. The single most pertinent factor in voting for Ashley was clearly the impression gained of her on the show over the last few weeks. But apparently that's not enough. Even though that's surely what it's meant to be based on. |
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#63 |
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Join Date: May 2007
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Its an ITV show too. People who do shows on the other channel to their own usually do badly. Eastenders don't do well on BBC shows, so its a bit difficult to see why one can win IAC on ITV on an Eastender's vote when Patsy, Louisa, Letitia, Jessie, Natalie, Anita and Sid didn't benefit from any similar massive vote on SCD on the BBC itself.
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#64 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 516
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Charlie won for three reasons.
Ver ver sexist. |
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#65 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,880
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Good posts Malliday.
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#66 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Quote:
Good posts Malliday.
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#67 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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@norbitonite
I think the coup de grace is that we could not compile a similar list of contributing factors that might influence people to vote for Ashley. The single most pertinent factor in voting for Ashley was clearly the impression gained of her on the show over the last few weeks. But apparently that's not enough. Even though that's surely what it's meant to be based on. Ashley talked about her mother and her unreserved love and support... she also had a phone call from her. Ashley talked about life in the PCD and how she was not allowed to talk during interviews... which I think must have been incredibly difficult for her as she has such a bright, positive and bubbly personality. Ashley was also the focus of attention from Dec on numerous occasions. I think the main problem here is that Charlie and Ashley are very similar... both of them are intelligent, compassionate, independent and bright. They both gave their trials 100% no matter how difficult they were...in short they are both good role models in a celebrity culture that include the likes of the TOWIE/Geordie/Jordan/Kerry et al. Personally I think what pipped it for Charlie was her more obvious suffering in the trials... both Ashley and David breezed through the trials and the GBP has proved time and time again they prefer people to suffer. I do however think that Ashley will benefit most from IAC in the longterm and I hope she does get some decent work... I think she would be a great presenter. I didn't vote this year because I just could not choose between them...what I liked about one was true of the other... they are both lovely. |
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#68 |
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Join Date: May 2007
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@norbitonite
Sorry, but my point still remains the most rational explanation. The points in the OP were not equally true yesterday, because they were not voting for the winner. It was not an either/or choice. Quote:
However, that does not mean that they weren't already contributing to the level of support Charlie received to get this far in the competition. I surmised nothing. I stated as fact that there are EE fans who voted against her because they dislike the character she plays. I also said that there are people who have admitted this on these forums, so it is in no way fallacious. Regarding the Eastenders votes, it's fallacious to surmise that people wouldn't vote for her because of her character. The vast majority of Eastenders fans love to hate her character and actually admire her personally for her portrayal of such a vile character. Quote:
The percentage of people who would vote against her for that reason would be utterly miniscule. As I said in my post, these two things offset the EE fan vote to some extent. There is no way of knowing how much, so I don't see how you can make such catagoric assertions. Equally, the Pussycat Dolls' most successful album sold 1.2m copies in the UK, 7 years ago, and Ashley is quite clearly one of the least recognisable members. Meanwhile, Eastenders is watched by between 5-10m people every other day. Ashley's support from Pussycat Dolls fans can only logically have paled in comparison to the number of Eastenders fans rooting for Charlie. Quote:
On the question of Kiki, as you said, it's hard to judge. But I think it's again only logical to assume that the situation would have pulled at heart strings, particularly amongst female viewers. Ashley had no such emotional capital working in her favour. Nothing at all. Quote:
As for the casual voter voting on what they see onscreen on the night rather than 'I know her/don't know her', even if true all it'd mean is that the swinging votes weren't based on a fair representation of the two. If you extend that argument, only people who've watched every episode should be allowed to vote because only they would be able to form 'the broader picture and who genuinely deserved it over the course of the three weeks'.It'd mean they were based on highlights, designed to make the person look interesting, the final challenge and fleeting one-liners rather than the broader picture and who genuinely deserved it over the course of the three weeks. Quote:
That might suggest why Ashley was ahead in the votes at the start, thanks to regular viewers whose minds were already made up, and why Charlie surged through to win late on thanks to votes from casual viewers who only saw the way she was represented in the final
But equally, it might not. We simply don't have the data to know. Quote:
And finally, I think it is an absolute given that the voting public would favour the Brit, and I've read comments to endorse that assumption.
Sadly, I have too. I must say though I find it interesting that you dismiss my observations that are based on comment I have read that endorse them with 'it's fallacious to surmise', when you are doing the same thing here. Quote:
I think the coup de grace is that we could not compile a similar list of contributing factors that might influence people to vote for Ashley. The single most pertinent factor in voting for Ashley was clearly the impression gained of her on the show over the last few weeks. But we can compile a different list of contributing factors to why Ashley was popular:But apparently that's not enough. Even though that's surely what it's meant to be based on. - she was acknowledged to be 'hawt' - she got far more airtime in week one than Charlie - she did have the 'heartstring tug' of 'my family are so far away that they can't even watch me on TV to know how I'm getting on, unlike everybody else' - she got lots of coverage in both the main show and the spinoff due to presenters having crushes on her. Etc, etc Now I'm not saying that any of this is conclusive of anything. What I am saying is neither is what you have put forward. I say again, all we know for sure is that Charlie polled the most votes. The rest is conjecture. |
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#69 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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@norbitonite
I don't think it can be so easily dismissed as conjecture. I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest likely influences upon voting, especially if they're entirely credible, as the OP's clearly were. I mean, why did the Tories/Lib Dems win the last election? You can't say for certain how each individual voted but I think we can all suggest with quite some certainty the reasons. Regarding those voting against Charlie because of her character, I'm sorry, for some reason I missed where you said that you'd seen people admit as much on this forum. So it's not a fallacious assertion. However, as I said, I think it's reasonable to assume that of those of Eastenders' vast viewing figures who decided to watch I'm A Celebrity only a miniscule number would have let their dislike of her character influence their vote, compared to those that voted in her favour due to her association with the show. Regarding Kiki, come on?! Are you seriously suggesting that a sob story of a mother missing her child and being reunited as the winner of the show wouldn't have more of a positive impact than a negative one? It's quite obvious that the motherhood angle and separation from her daughter will have gained her far more votes than it lost her. That's just common sense. Regarding the Pussycat Dolls versus Eastenders vote. Again, come on! I don't need to make categoric assertions. The potential numbers speak for themselves. I never said that only viewers who had watched it over the three weeks should be able to vote, but the fact is that those who vote on the basis of the final alone are not privy to what the regular viewers have seen over the previous few weeks and so their vote is unlikely to reflect the most deserving campmate but rather whoever is best represented in that final hour, or who they are most familiar with. Therefore I think it's a shame if their votes sway it one way or the other. So you concur on the suggestion that there were people out there voting for Charlie simply because they wanted a Brit to win. That's something Ashley couldn't counter and which may have swung the vote. I'll accept that the fact that Ashley being the "hawt" one is a point in her favour. But I think that would be a less important factor, particularly among I'm A Celebrity's predominantly female audience, than the factors mentioned in the OP's post. In fact, I can imagine any boost it offered her being easily counteracted by those who found her impeccable looks and porcelain white teeth off-putting compared to Charlie's everywoman looks. As for Ashley's family being so far away, that was barely mentioned. It was that phonecall and no more. Whereas Charlie's motherhood and separation was referenced over and over again, particularly in the final and in the papers. So there's no comparison there. Regarding airtime, I think it was pretty even in the long run. I don't remember Ashley getting any more airtime than Charlie in the first week. I only remember them giving Ashley serious airtime once they realised she was actually surprisingly popular about a week or so in. Finally, regarding the voting, the whole point of the opening post is that it was due to those factors that Charlie won. At what point people influenced by those factors voted is ultimately not really relevant. What's relevant is that those factors influenced their votes. And I think those factors are all entirely realistic and influential contributory factors without which, if it were based solely on how they came across over the last few weeks, Charlie probably wouldn't have won. That's what it comes down to. Who would have won, given how they performed in the jungle, were those factors not in play? And I think the answer is that of the two Ashley would have won hands down. |
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#70 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 516
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Quote:
@norbitonite
I don't think it can be so easily dismissed as conjecture. I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest likely influences upon voting, especially if they're entirely credible, as the OP's clearly were. Regarding those voting against Charlie because of her character, I'm sorry, for some reason I missed where you said that you'd seen people admit as much on this forum. So it's not a fallacious assertion. However, as I said, I think it's reasonable to assume that of those of Eastenders' vast viewing figures who decided to watch I'm A Celebrity only a miniscule number would have let their dislike of her character influence their vote, compared to those that voted in her favour due to her association with the show. Regarding Kiki, come on?! Are you seriously suggesting that a sob story of a mother missing her child and being reunited as the winner of the show wouldn't have more of a positive impact than a negative one? It's quite obvious that the motherhood angle and separation from her daughter will have gained her far more votes than it lost her. That's just common sense. Regarding the Pussycat Dolls versus Eastenders vote. Again, come on! I don't need to make categoric assertions. The potential numbers speak for themselves. I never said that only viewers who had watched it over the three weeks should be able to vote, but the fact is that those who vote on the basis of the final alone are not privy to what the regular viewers have seen over the previous few weeks and so their vote is unlikely to reflect the most deserving campmate but rather whoever is best represented in that final hour, or who they are most familiar with. Therefore I think it's a shame if their votes sway it one way or the other. So you concur on the suggestion that there were people out there voting for Charlie simply because they wanted a Brit to win. That's something Ashley couldn't counter and which may have swung the vote. I'll accept that the fact that Ashley being the "hawt" one is a point in her favour. But I think that would be a less important factor, particularly among I'm A Celebrity's predominantly female audience, than the factors mentioned in the OP's post. In fact, I can imagine any boost it offered her being easily counteracted by those who found her impeccable looks and porcelain white teeth off-putting compared to Charlie's everywoman looks. As for Ashley's family being so far away, that was barely mentioned. It was that phonecall and no more. Whereas Charlie's motherhood and separation was referenced over and over again, particularly in the final and in the papers. So there's no comparison there. Regarding airtime, I think it was pretty even in the long run. I don't remember Ashley getting any more airtime than Charlie in the first week. In fact, I remember Charlie's altercations with Helen being one of the focal points. I think they only started giving Ashley serious airtime once they realised she was actually surprisingly popular about a week or so in. Finally, regarding the voting, the whole point of the opening post is that it was due to those factors that Charlie won. At what point people influenced by those factors voted is ultimately not really relevant. What's relevant is that those factors influenced their votes. And I think those factors are all entirely realistic contributions without which, if it were based solely on how they came across over the last few weeks, Charlie probably wouldn't have won. |
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#71 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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In what way was the post flippant ?
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#72 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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I think if you think about it, Malliday, you probably need to think about this a little bit more. Think on it. Don't be so flippant. You regret it some day.
![]() I know. I really should start thinking about things in more depth. |
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#73 |
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Black Country lad in Yorkshire
Posts: 118,047
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1. Britain vs America
2. Eastenders 3. Kiki ![]() 5, Ashley had never heard of Kirk Douglas
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#74 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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![]() I know. I really should start thinking about things in more depth. . |
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#75 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 516
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Ashley Dissed Corned Beef
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It wasn;t flippant but some venn diagrams would have helped plus a few decorative jungle motifs around the edge.
Nah, but seriously. This is what I'm talking about. We will never get to the bottom of things without these illustrative aides you (so flippantly) allude to. Reams of back and forth conjecture and speculation, though perhaps based upon a semi-sound foundation of suppositional data, cannot and will not (neither now nor never) suffice. The root of this is, tautologically, in the radical! |
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.. It crossed my mind that she knew it would be aired, and took the opportunity to come across well to the viewers. I may have been wrong though

