There is a lot of suspension of disbelief. That is for sure. But it does seem to show both sides of the story. There are some sympathetic characters fighting for the Muslim cause and sonee villains on the side of the Americans. Very good to see American actually not portraying themselves as saints and their adversary's being total demons.
Homeland on Ch4 (UK Pace) - No Spoilers! (Part 2)
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Originally Posted by Normandie:
“She made absolutely the right call for the right reasons but the more emotional men in the ops room (Quinn and ? Lockhart?) refused to let her order stand. All the subsequent attacks and deaths would have been prevented if Carrie's order had been carried out.”
“She made absolutely the right call for the right reasons but the more emotional men in the ops room (Quinn and ? Lockhart?) refused to let her order stand. All the subsequent attacks and deaths would have been prevented if Carrie's order had been carried out.”
Lockhart wasn't in Pakistan at that time.
Talking of Lockhart, I don't understand why Haqqani didn't kill him when he had the chance? He must have known who he was?
Alex Gansa and his team are killing this series!
AG, the series, & most of the actors deserve to win an Emmy or 2 or 3 even.
It's one hell of a series!
AG, the series, & most of the actors deserve to win an Emmy or 2 or 3 even.
It's one hell of a series!
I don't understand why they didn't have a decoy backup of the list of names. They're hardly likely to start verifying the contents of the list when it gets handed over.
Originally Posted by newyorkcitygirl:
“I don't understand why they didn't have a decoy backup of the list of names. They're hardly likely to start verifying the contents of the list when it gets handed over.”
“I don't understand why they didn't have a decoy backup of the list of names. They're hardly likely to start verifying the contents of the list when it gets handed over.”
Yes I thought the same.
Excellent episode.I was almost relieved when it ended-couldn't take much more.
Originally Posted by Daniel_Gleeball:
“There is a lot of suspension of disbelief. That is for sure. But it does seem to show both sides of the story. There are some sympathetic characters fighting for the Muslim cause and sonee villains on the side of the Americans. Very good to see American actually not portraying themselves as saints and their adversary's being total demons.”
“There is a lot of suspension of disbelief. That is for sure. But it does seem to show both sides of the story. There are some sympathetic characters fighting for the Muslim cause and sonee villains on the side of the Americans. Very good to see American actually not portraying themselves as saints and their adversary's being total demons.”
I would agree with the above, better than the gung ho stuff we often get. I admit that there is a naughty part of me that loves seeing the USA military making hash-ups.
I wonder if the Pakistani community approve of seeing their nation portrayed as double dealing , in league with terrorists? Is that accurate? Today's tragic news about an attack on a school over there would suggest that they are as much a target of fundamentalist terrorism as anybody else.
NB The series is great entertainment, though.
Originally Posted by catsitter:
“Lockhart wasn't in Pakistan at that time.
Talking of Lockhart, I don't understand why Haqqani didn't kill him when he had the chance? He must have known who he was?”
“Lockhart wasn't in Pakistan at that time.
Talking of Lockhart, I don't understand why Haqqani didn't kill him when he had the chance? He must have known who he was?”
Probably would have if Quinn hadn't intervened after he killed Fara.
Originally Posted by solare:
“... Apart from an engaging plot, they've introduced some great new characters into the series - Martha, her spineless husband (who will always be Paul from Desperate Housewives to me), Khan, Tasneem...”
“... Apart from an engaging plot, they've introduced some great new characters into the series - Martha, her spineless husband (who will always be Paul from Desperate Housewives to me), Khan, Tasneem...”
Aha, thanks solare for identifying spineless husband, he did look familiar! Poor guy must specialise in weasly no-goods.
Originally Posted by Normandie:
“...the really big decision that Carrie made and had countermanded was in the Ops Room when she ordered the drone strike on the meeting with Saul and the terrorists in the desert when the terrorist was using Saul as a human shield.
If Carrie's decision had been acted upon, Saul would be dead but so would a prominent terrorist, the release of the prisoners could not have been leveraged against Saul's release, the attack on the embassy would not have taken place and the 40+ American deaths would not have happened.
She made absolutely the right call for the right reasons but the more emotional men in the ops room (Quinn and ? Lockhart?) refused to let her order stand. All the subsequent attacks and deaths would have been prevented if Carrie's order had been carried out....
...This series is as excellent as the first - I'll forgive a lot to have a drama that makes me feel exhausted at the end of an hour because I've been so tense.
”
“...the really big decision that Carrie made and had countermanded was in the Ops Room when she ordered the drone strike on the meeting with Saul and the terrorists in the desert when the terrorist was using Saul as a human shield.
If Carrie's decision had been acted upon, Saul would be dead but so would a prominent terrorist, the release of the prisoners could not have been leveraged against Saul's release, the attack on the embassy would not have taken place and the 40+ American deaths would not have happened.
She made absolutely the right call for the right reasons but the more emotional men in the ops room (Quinn and ? Lockhart?) refused to let her order stand. All the subsequent attacks and deaths would have been prevented if Carrie's order had been carried out....
...This series is as excellent as the first - I'll forgive a lot to have a drama that makes me feel exhausted at the end of an hour because I've been so tense.
”
BIB - a good point well remembered. It explains why I felt there was a bit of a disjoint later on, when Carrie prevented Saul shooting himself by deceiving him back into the arms of the 'hostiles' - who'd use him as a bargaining chip again.
You could argue that Carrie's deception-for-his-own-good was a result of her guilt at ordering the drone strike in the first place, but I don't remember this point being made in the screenplay. Then again, the pace is so fast there's an awful lot I miss!
Originally Posted by mimik1uk:
“very disappointed to see the fara character getting killed off last night , had a bit of a crush on her
”
“very disappointed to see the fara character getting killed off last night , had a bit of a crush on her
”
Well there's still the deliciously evil Tasneem to lust over.
It was another great episode last night, but it did make me laugh how Carrie said "What the f**k is happening" when the terrorist attack started, as if having lots of bullets flying towards a bunch of Americans didn't make it obvious what was going on.
You watch this and think this is a bit far fetched,, and then turn on the news, and well words fail me really, but real life is even more terrible
Originally Posted by Tom Hark:
“I would agree with the above, better than the gung ho stuff we often get. I admit that there is a naughty part of me that loves seeing the USA military making hash-ups.
I wonder if the Pakistani community approve of seeing their nation portrayed as double dealing , in league with terrorists? Is that accurate? Today's tragic news about an attack on a school over there would suggest that they are as much a target of fundamentalist terrorism as anybody else.
NB The series is great entertainment, though.”
“I would agree with the above, better than the gung ho stuff we often get. I admit that there is a naughty part of me that loves seeing the USA military making hash-ups.
I wonder if the Pakistani community approve of seeing their nation portrayed as double dealing , in league with terrorists? Is that accurate? Today's tragic news about an attack on a school over there would suggest that they are as much a target of fundamentalist terrorism as anybody else.
NB The series is great entertainment, though.”
I would have thought there would be a fair amount if political machinations going on within the Pakistani government. A bit like courtiers were in the days of Elizabeth the first etc.
Nothing new about USA military cock ups. I remember the first gulf war where some of the Brits were killed by American friendly fire.
Originally Posted by Normandie:
“If Carrie's decision had been acted upon, Saul would be dead but so would a prominent terrorist, the release of the prisoners could not have been leveraged against Saul's release, the attack on the embassy would not have taken place and the 40+ American deaths would not have happened.
She made absolutely the right call for the right reasons but the more emotional men in the ops room (Quinn and ? Lockhart?) refused to let her order stand. All the subsequent attacks and deaths would have been prevented if Carrie's order had been carried out.
Of course, there'd have been no storyline either if the drone had attacked and killed Saul et al... but Carrie when her meds are balanced is one heck of a Middle Eastern specialist. ”
“If Carrie's decision had been acted upon, Saul would be dead but so would a prominent terrorist, the release of the prisoners could not have been leveraged against Saul's release, the attack on the embassy would not have taken place and the 40+ American deaths would not have happened.
She made absolutely the right call for the right reasons but the more emotional men in the ops room (Quinn and ? Lockhart?) refused to let her order stand. All the subsequent attacks and deaths would have been prevented if Carrie's order had been carried out.
Of course, there'd have been no storyline either if the drone had attacked and killed Saul et al
... but Carrie when her meds are balanced is one heck of a Middle Eastern specialist. ”
I would have thought it's against CIA protocol to intentionally kill the former head of the agency, even if doing so would have also resulted in the death of a high profile terrorist. The US government (it is implied the order came from the very top) chose to release five more terrorists it held prisoner in exchange for Saul, so clearly he is considered extremely valuable even if he now only is the ex-Director. At the time of the aborted drone strike there was no way of knowing about the subsequent attack on the embassy. It's more likely that in real life Carrie would have been fired, or at least severely disciplined, for giving an order so out of whack with proper procedure. And as you say, it would have ended that plot strand then and there.
This has been a great season of Homeland, I wish they would drop or scale back on the family/personal life nonsense and just keep it as a political action thriller.
I have really enjoyed Homeland and this series has moved things on brilliantly.
As far as the reality as opposed to the fiction, all the books I have read over the last 15 years paint a picture far more outlandish than just about anything we see in the series.
Foreign affairs and international relations are a dirty business it seems justified by everyone as being in their national interest.
Two interesting books on the CIA since 1945;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rogue-State-...e+william+blum
and then one on British Foreign Policy / MI6 are as follows;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Web-Deceit-B...=web+of+deceit
As far as the strategies, policies and longer term aims of countries like Pakistan, I just could not comment (mainly due to ignorance) but from a relatively shallow perspective, I'd go back to the days of Empire (British) and start tracing the story of our involvement and then how this has shaped to a greater or lesser extent the modus operandi of individual countries, especially since 1945 and then from the early 1980's (Charlie Wilson days) when the Middle and Near East really came into focus as the literal battle ground for the Super Powers.
I wonder how much research the writers of Homeland have to put in or what their backgrounds are (degrees in history, politics, international relations)?
I think the scripts are very smart as they never pull back a full layer on anything yet still keep moving on.
As far as the reality as opposed to the fiction, all the books I have read over the last 15 years paint a picture far more outlandish than just about anything we see in the series.
Foreign affairs and international relations are a dirty business it seems justified by everyone as being in their national interest.
Two interesting books on the CIA since 1945;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rogue-State-...e+william+blum
and then one on British Foreign Policy / MI6 are as follows;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Web-Deceit-B...=web+of+deceit
As far as the strategies, policies and longer term aims of countries like Pakistan, I just could not comment (mainly due to ignorance) but from a relatively shallow perspective, I'd go back to the days of Empire (British) and start tracing the story of our involvement and then how this has shaped to a greater or lesser extent the modus operandi of individual countries, especially since 1945 and then from the early 1980's (Charlie Wilson days) when the Middle and Near East really came into focus as the literal battle ground for the Super Powers.
I wonder how much research the writers of Homeland have to put in or what their backgrounds are (degrees in history, politics, international relations)?
I think the scripts are very smart as they never pull back a full layer on anything yet still keep moving on.
Very convenient that Quinn has a German lady friend who happens to know the whereabouts of Akani.....
Knew the mole was Saul's colleague/friend Dar Adal (?) even back in series one/two I said I bet he's the mole!!!!!
Originally Posted by Jenny_Sawyer:
“Very convenient that Quinn has a German lady friend who happens to know the whereabouts of Akani.....”
“Very convenient that Quinn has a German lady friend who happens to know the whereabouts of Akani.....”
The way I saw it that she's Quinn's friend with access to resources due to both of them working in similar roles. It was because of Quinn's information (the mobiles they'd been using) that she managed to find the location.
Originally Posted by Katiekat1:
“Knew the mole was Saul's colleague/friend Dar Adal (?) even back in series one/two I said I bet he's the mole!!!!!”
“Knew the mole was Saul's colleague/friend Dar Adal (?) even back in series one/two I said I bet he's the mole!!!!!”
I didnt see it like that. Its more likely that he will help bump of the terrorist leader in a way that will ensure that fingers cannot be pointed directly at the US government.
Originally Posted by hendero:
“I would have thought it's against CIA protocol to intentionally kill the former head of the agency, even if doing so would have also resulted in the death of a high profile terrorist.”
“I would have thought it's against CIA protocol to intentionally kill the former head of the agency, even if doing so would have also resulted in the death of a high profile terrorist.”
Well, possibly... but I think it probably depends on the context.
Ex-CIA chief with terrorist droned to death in Central Park... A. Bad. Thing. And likely illegal. Ex-CIA chief kidnapped and transported to the wilds of Pakistan and held as a prisoner of major terrorist with no obvious chance of extraction? Drone strike only frowned upon if it makes it into the public domain - I'm guessing. Not so much illegal as a pragmatic solution. Let's move on, nothing to see here...
Originally Posted by hendero:
“The US government (it is implied the order came from the very top) chose to release five more terrorists it held prisoner in exchange for Saul, so clearly he is considered extremely valuable even if he now only is the ex-Director.”
“The US government (it is implied the order came from the very top) chose to release five more terrorists it held prisoner in exchange for Saul, so clearly he is considered extremely valuable even if he now only is the ex-Director.”
The value of someone like that to the terrorists cannot be over-estimated - both for the part he played as a shield but also highly valuable as a propaganda icon if they had decided to string him up by the neck via a crane, all live-streamed to YouTube... that would be why the White House ordered the exchange - the alternatives were too damaging. Least worst option and all that even if they did have to go through with an exchange of high-value prisoners...
Whereas an ex-CIA chief has no value if he's vapourised - conundrum solved, no barter power, no YouTube movies... a pat on the back for Carrie for taking such a difficult decision in the circumstances.
---------------------
I never liked Dar Adal! He surely must be the mole. We can't be being led down another dead end? I will confess to a sharp intake of breath when I realised who we were looking at.
I don't know her name - Tazneem? Anyway, the Pakistani security woman, well I don't understand her - she's got a high-powered job with a lot of authority & responsibility (and probably earns good money), yet she seems to support the Taleban, now if the Taleban were in power then as a woman she'd be burka-clad & pregnant & not allowed to leave the kitchen!
I probably have not concentrated enough but who was in the back of the SUV in the very last scene??. Was Quinn's target the bearded Taliban leader Haqqani standing up and waving to everyone or is he only a double?.
Answers on a postcard please
Answers on a postcard please
....per previous post...done some homework, is it Dar Adal, retired black-ops specialist and therefore the mystery CIA mole?.
Originally Posted by jamct:
“....per previous post...done some homework, is it Dar Adal, retired black-ops specialist and therefore the mystery CIA mole?.”
“....per previous post...done some homework, is it Dar Adal, retired black-ops specialist and therefore the mystery CIA mole?.”
This was mentioned in several posts just above yours. Wake up.
Originally Posted by Jenny_Sawyer:
“I don't know her name - Tazneem? Anyway, the Pakistani security woman, well I don't understand her - she's got a high-powered job with a lot of authority & responsibility (and probably earns good money), yet she seems to support the Taleban, now if the Taleban were in power then as a woman she'd be burka-clad & pregnant & not allowed to leave the kitchen!”
“I don't know her name - Tazneem? Anyway, the Pakistani security woman, well I don't understand her - she's got a high-powered job with a lot of authority & responsibility (and probably earns good money), yet she seems to support the Taleban, now if the Taleban were in power then as a woman she'd be burka-clad & pregnant & not allowed to leave the kitchen!
”
Pakistan isn't exactly a hotbed of feminism so even without the Taliban in power it's difficult to believe that a woman would be in such a position of power, but as she's quite hot in a deliciously evil way I'm not complaining. I mean, if you took every unlikely part out of Homeland then you'd have fifteen minute long episodes!
Something else I find hard to believe is that Akani would make himself susceptible to assassination, by sticking his head out of the car's sunroof. The guy has just killed a load of Americans and even some of the locals were pissed off with him and anyone could have taken him out.
Originally Posted by montyburns56:
“Pakistan isn't exactly a hotbed of feminism so even without the Taliban in power it's difficult to believe that a woman would be in such a position of power, but as she's quite hot in a deliciously evil way I'm not complaining. I mean, if you took every unlikely part out of Homeland then you'd have fifteen minute long episodes!
Something else I find hard to believe is that Akani would make himself susceptible to assassination, by sticking his head out of the car's sunroof. The guy has just killed a load of Americans and even some of the locals were pissed off with him and anyone could have taken him out.”
“Pakistan isn't exactly a hotbed of feminism so even without the Taliban in power it's difficult to believe that a woman would be in such a position of power, but as she's quite hot in a deliciously evil way I'm not complaining. I mean, if you took every unlikely part out of Homeland then you'd have fifteen minute long episodes!
Something else I find hard to believe is that Akani would make himself susceptible to assassination, by sticking his head out of the car's sunroof. The guy has just killed a load of Americans and even some of the locals were pissed off with him and anyone could have taken him out.”
In the pre Taleban days they had a female prime minister - Benazir Bhutto.
Yes - we thought the same re Tasneem in the future if IS/Taliban took over.
I can quite believe she's in an important job now though, well educated women can make it to the top in India and Pakistan - as Indira Ghandi & Bhutto showed.
I can quite believe she's in an important job now though, well educated women can make it to the top in India and Pakistan - as Indira Ghandi & Bhutto showed.
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