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Old 06-12-2012, 09:37
sovietusername
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Though TEH had been brilliant, after the slow The Beast Below, and then the fairly rubbish VOTD, I was a little worried about how series 5 would turn out. But, like with series 1, I think that up til here, the show was more or less just finding it's feet again and, for me, apart from the Lodger and the Silurian 2 parter, the series just gets better and better from here onwards.

Time of Angels

This is a proper Moffatt story this, with the return of both the weeping Angels and River Song. The 2nd part is definately better than the 1st part which almost seems to be there JUST to set things up for the 2nd, which does make you wonder if this story needed to be a 2 parter at all. But it's still a brilliant episode, and, though a bit slow, has lots of spooky moments, managing to create a sinister atmosphere where Flesh and Stones is just very tense. It's not as good as Blink but I think the Angels are still quite scary here. The scenes in the tunnels where the Angel uses peoples voices to lure them into the trap are v creepy, as is the scene where the Doctor is talking to Bob, only to then find out it's not actually Bob at all. People are all talking about this isnt how Angels normally work, and they dont kill you normally. But it does state why i.e. to communicate, and we know the Angel is here only to revive the rest rather than actually feed etc. The scene where the Doctor and the rest realise their surrounded by half formed Angels is also really good, they look much more scary than the actual angels themselves. I also like the scene in the van thing when Amy's locked in there and the recording comes out of the TV, very tense.

The opening scene is fantastic. Like the opening scenes to The Pandorica Opens or The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, I like how lots of things are happening at once, seemingly entirely different scenes coming together e.g. a guy in a field, a spaceship, the Doctor and Amy in a Museum. It's all really brilliant and is something I love about Moffatt's earlier soties, it's all feels very big and exciting and new. Not only are the ngels sinister here, but I really like River Song, far more than I did in Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead (though that may mainly b e down to my not really understanding what she was i.e. a future companion. Here though, I'd got it, and really enjoyed finding out what she was talking about in the earlier 2 episodes with the "crash of the byzantium" as well as getting references to the other stuff thats happened/will happen with River e.g. references to the Pandorica, to River being imprisoned for murder and "I had lessons from the very best... shame you were busy that day." Well, we all know why he was busy now, dont we River. It's also weird seeing River with Amy but without Rory. I also like Amy's continual questioning about who River is and Matt also does very well here, as he's clearly feeling quite guilty over everything that happened last time.

I'll admit this one's a bit slow at times, especially in the maze of the dead scenes, but there are still lots of good moments, and the cliffhanger is brilliant, even though you've kinda already guessed the conclusion and it was ruined by Graham Norton first time around.

Flesh and Stone

This ones MUCH better than Time of the Angels and, I'd say, is quite nearly perfect. While the previous episode was a lot more creepy, this has a really tense atmophere througbhout. I love all the stuff with the Angels facing them in the corridor when the Doctor has to put the lights out, and the scene where their able to turn the door wheel things depite them being megnetically clamped or whetever it was.One of the best moments in this episode though, is the scene where their laughing etc. After seeing the cracks in episodes 2 and 3, it's all a bit like "ooh look, theres a crack again." Here though there's a really ominous build up to it and, with the continual disappearence of the soldiers and the Doctor working it out (ALSO, we get to forget that awful Cyber King ever happened!), the crack becomes something really sinister and to be feared, something even the Angels are scared of. I also like the whole countdown thing with Amy which ramps up the tension even further and the idea of not being able to look at the Angels is a brilliant one. It also becomes clear that the Doctor is REALLY under stress here, far more than we've seen him up until now. I love the scene where he's all "yes, cos if we lie to her she'll get all better... shut up please, your dying" and where he shouts at River. But he's also still the comedian here ("I made him say comfy chairs...") and I like whole his whole absent midedness and not quite there element which makes his Doctor so much moe alien than 9 or 10, which I always loved about 11. "I dont know, it's a thing in progress, respect the thing." Also, as well as Rivers references to the future, we get a much more subtle reference to The Big Bang with the Doctor comforting Amy (his wearing a coat while the other Doctor didnt was, I'll admit, completely lost on me at the time, I didnt notice it. But I do really like stuff like that, shows a lot of planning and thinking ahead. It's a shame that, despite beign more complex, the arc in series 6 was much more clumsily done). Rivers grows ever more mysterious here as she sort of becomes another companion here, it being her rather than Amy who spends most of the episode by the Doctors side.

I like the resolution to this, the whole artificial gravity failing thing being quite clever, but also very simple at the same time, and not completely out of the blue (though you do then wonder how the Doctor, Amy and River got out). I also like the last scene with the Doctor and Amy, not only cos it's, well, erm... Amy's a bad girl , ("it's been a while!" Love that line) but also cos we get more hints about the future and, Rory's coming on borad! YAY!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd5...1-o_shortfilms
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:49
PJ68
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one of my favourite 2 parters since who came back. love the angels and i don't midn that their MO changes a bit it makes them that bit scarier tbh
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:57
TRT1968
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Mike Skinner!!!

Like so much of NuWho, so much promise, so many lovely bits, so much fudging.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:01
CD93
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"Khaleeeesssssiii!"

Get it?
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:01
johnnysaucepn
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I particularly like (although I know that some people hated) that the story switches between the two episodes. The first part is a slow burner, a creepy mystery building up the atmosphere, whereas the second part ramps up the action and changes the threat.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:38
GDK
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[Snip] his wearing a coat while the other Doctor didnt was, I'll admit, completely lost on me at the time, I didnt notice it. [Snip]
Something I missed too?

Explain! Explain!!

(please )
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:47
Corwin
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Something I missed too?

Explain! Explain!!

(please )
The Doctor (who has lost his coat) leaves blind Amy in the forest.

He then returns to talk to her, he is mostly off camera but it can be seen he is now wearing his jacket.

People picked up on this and wondered if this was a 2nd Doctor or just a continuity mistake.

It was of course the Doctor from The Big Bang travelling back through his own lifeline.



A very good episode, not totally keen on being able to see the Angels move but apart from that the episode was great.

Moffat also reused a couple of things from Curse of Fatal Death. The Doctor having dinner with the architect (now long dead) of the building they are in and the term "Mrs Doctor".

It's also only the 2nd AFAIK DW story to have a filming location that I have visited (the other being The Shakespeare Code).
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:33
GDK
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Not just a simple continuity gaff then? I read that the Moff had said there were quite a few to do with Matt's hair length in these episodes... Or were they deliberate also and Moff's remarks at the time deliberate misdirection...

Either way, it's not an issue I knew about till this morning

Thanks for the info.

Why do I now have this image of the Moff as a cat playing with a mouse, us, the audience!
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:12
daveyboy7472
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I found with the first episode that is was okay until after Amy's encounter with the Angel and upto when everyone entered the caves. From thereon in it slid down the slippery slope to snorefest status. I have never been so bored in my life watching the second half of the episode and in some cases it was even worse than The Beast Below.

The second episode went the other way and started off a bit slow but picked up to be half(quite literally half) a decent episode.

I think this story should really have been just a single episode. It just drags so much in the middle as a whole that maybe in one 45 minute stretch it would have been a lot better. The cliffhanger also is crap which also makes me think this. I mean, the whole speech by The Doctor at the end is good but as usual in most Moffat 2-parters the resolution is something of a letdown and that's without the Norton banner on it's original transmission.

It's not all bad. River Song was good in this, as was the chemistry between The Doctor and Amy. Also liked in hindsight the other Doctor with his jacket on, certainly didn't spot that at the time. I also liked all the stuff with the crack in time and the soldiers not remembering their colleagues after they been sucked in. The last scene with The Doctor and Amy was good as well and it made a nice change to have The Doctor back to how he may have reacted in the Classic series by fending of her advances.

Didn't think the Angels were anywhere as near as good as in Blink and the whole story suffered from the usual lack of pep that was missing for so much of this Series.

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Old 06-12-2012, 13:08
ryanr554
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Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a good episode, but good is all it was. As far as the weeping angels are concerned, it has probably been the weakest episode with them in it. Since the others have been fantastic this is not really surprising.

I don't like that they added powers to the angels in this episode. The formula in Blink was simple yet perfect. Nothing needed to be done to make the angels scarier. "The image of an Angel becomes an Angel". I thought it was an unnecessary addition.

I was excited to see River return and was pleased that she stayed the same from when we see her in Silence in the Library. She drops nice hints at the pandorica at the end of the episode which I only catch during my second time watching this episode.

The crack is becoming more apparent and we know what it does now, wipes things out of time completely. It is scary to think that it is spreading all over the universe but how did prisoner zero escape through it? Another thing, the doctor states that since him and Amy were time travelers that they could remember people that no longer existed but then, she forgot Rory?

Overall, I would give this two parter a 6/10. Enjoyable but I don't think it needed to be a two parter. I am pretty sure they could have condensed it down into a single episode. I liked seeing River back but was disappointed with the Angels to be honest. It had the unfortunate task of following Blink as the next Angel story, I don't think it could ever have lived up to it.
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Old 06-12-2012, 13:22
davrosdodebird
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The forgetting thing was resolved in The Big Bang remember, -- Amy didn't remember the Doctor either, or at least she thought she didn't
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Old 06-12-2012, 14:09
Sara_Peplow
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This one was scary. Funny how Amy worked out the doctor and river were connected allmost straight away. Looking back it came full circle. Amy witrhout realising it was meeting her daughter for the first time.River had to settle for being a freind and helping to look after her and the doctor till the time was right for the reveal.Only thing Rory asked what was going to happen in TATM. Wouldn't Amy have told him about the byzantine and the angels before then ?.
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Old 06-12-2012, 14:13
Listentome
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I think I have probably re-watched these two episodes more than any other of the revived series. I just love them. Scary, fun and a good story. Its by no means perfect, but it fulfilled exactly what I was looking for at the time, a story set on another planet.
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Old 06-12-2012, 14:16
johnnysaucepn
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I don't like that they added powers to the angels in this episode. The formula in Blink was simple yet perfect. Nothing needed to be done to make the angels scarier. "The image of an Angel becomes an Angel". I thought it was an unnecessary addition.
I didn't have a problem with it being added, but it was a poorly-defined sort of addition. That which holds the image of an Angel? Could be anything, and yet the only things affected are video footage and retinas (which don't even hold images).

It is scary to think that it is spreading all over the universe but how did prisoner zero escape through it? Another thing, the doctor states that since him and Amy were time travelers that they could remember people that no longer existed but then, she forgot Rory?
The answers to these questions were covered in later episodes, in a slightly-handwavey, blink-and-you'll-miss-it sort of a way.
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Old 06-12-2012, 16:48
jerseyporter
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Not just a simple continuity gaff then? I read that the Moff had said there were quite a few to do with Matt's hair length in these episodes... Or were they deliberate also and Moff's remarks at the time deliberate misdirection...

Either way, it's not an issue I knew about till this morning

Thanks for the info.

Why do I now have this image of the Moff as a cat playing with a mouse, us, the audience!
That was just due to filming schedules, nothing sinister! They make a big joke of it on the commentaries. The jacket, however, is all part of the plot tying up with the final episode.
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Old 06-12-2012, 17:17
GDK
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That was just due to filming schedules, nothing sinister! They make a big joke of it on the commentaries. The jacket, however, is all part of the plot tying up with the final episode.
Still don't get the link to the last episode. What have I missed there? Is there something in the last ep that suggests he popped back to his own timeline to I help Amy survive? Apart from the jacket, that is?
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Old 06-12-2012, 17:26
davrosdodebird
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When the Doctor travels back through his timeline as he is erased from the universe, yes.
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Old 06-12-2012, 17:27
Corwin
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Still don't get the link to the last episode. What have I missed there? Is there something in the last ep that suggests he popped back to his own timeline to I help Amy survive? Apart from the jacket, that is?
Eh? We see him do it in the Big Bang.

He goes back to The Lodger, a trip they made to Space Florida, then Flesh and Stone where he tells her to remember what he told her when she was Seven.

Then back to when Amy was Seven and he tells her the story of him and the TARDIS so that she'll remember him when she hears the words "Something Old, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue".
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Old 06-12-2012, 19:33
Fire Host
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"Khaleeeesssssiii!"

Get it?
Ian Glen is fantastic, in both Thrones and this two-parter. (A masterclass in 'facing death with dignity' in Flesh and Stone stands out).

(Having said that I might be biased because Ser Jorah is one of my favourite characters...)

Anyway, I really like these episodes, they're two of my favourites. I thought the 'image of an Angel' thing was a clever way to keep them fresh, explain the seemingly-tacked on last 30 seconds of Blink, explain how the Angels got the Doctor in the first place in Blink (Sally gave him photos of them!), explain why the park statues and even the Statue of Liberty are Angels in TATM (ok, stretching it a bit, but in my head the energy harvested from Winter Quay allowed the actual Angels to animate all the statues/cherubs/liberty across New York into Angels, because their image is their power, and the statues already held enough of an image).

River Song is suitably ambiguous in this episode, and Matt and Karen both give excellent performances - you'd never know it was their first filmed episodes (I believe).
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Old 06-12-2012, 20:13
GDK
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OK. I just re-watched that bit of the Big Bang and... I never got the significance of that scene before! never made the special connection. I thought it was just part of the rewind...
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Old 06-12-2012, 21:43
DavetheScot
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It was a good story, but I do regret that they mucked around with the original concept of the Weeping Angels, and I thought showing us them moving was a terrible idea. The power of the Angels is that we never see them move.

The bit with Amy locked in the van with the Angel on the monitor was the best bit, and really excellent.
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Old 06-12-2012, 22:43
saladfingers81
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A mini masterpiece for me. True blockbuster Doctor Who written and directed by people with a love for genre film that shines through (aliens, the thing, ringu all referenced) and shows a maturity and sophistication that makes some previous two parters look like insipid, simply plotted, badly acted, soap opera directed drivel (The Sontaran two parter from S4 and Daleks in S3 spring to mind). The pre-credits sequence alone was enough to make this a 9/10. The rest just confirmed this. Amazing.
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Old 08-12-2012, 20:59
hajua
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I liked the symmetry in this story. Starts with a kiss, ends with a kiss. River escapes at the start by getting sucked away, everyone escapes at the end by the angels being sucked away.

10 there's the kids' games. You enjoy Who the most when you're 9 years old, so lots the good Nu Who stories have kids games in them to put you in that frame of mind. Like 8ing lots of foods and saying yuck or a creepy boy 7 "are you my mommy" or repeating everything the other person says until they're 6 of it. Here we get two games, the countdown within normal speech and the keep your eyes shut as long as possible game.

The cliffhanger resolution would have been better if they'd spent any special effects money on it. I had to wait til Futurama stole the idea (S7 "Farewell to Arms) before seeing it in action.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:26
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I liked the symmetry in this story. Starts with a kiss, ends with a kiss. River escapes at the start by getting sucked away, everyone escapes at the end by the angels being sucked away.

10 there's the kids' games. You enjoy Who the most when you're 9 years old, so lots the good Nu Who stories have kids games in them to put you in that frame of mind. Like 8ing lots of foods and saying yuck or a creepy boy 7 "are you my mommy" or repeating everything the other person says until they're 6 of it. Here we get two games, the countdown within normal speech and the keep your eyes shut as long as possible game.

The cliffhanger resolution would have been better if they'd spent any special effects money on it. I had to wait til Futurama stole the idea (S7 "Farewell to Arms) before seeing it in action.
Clever post. (Took me a while to get it )
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Old 13-12-2012, 23:31
Abomination
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Before I go into inevitable rantings that suggest my opinion might be otherwise, I do think that these are two very good episodes. But as a whole, I think the story was a bit weak.

The Time of Angels was, for me, the stronger of the two episodes. The Angels were back, and their return kicked off in style - the scene with Amy locked in that bunker with the recorded Angel was chilling and exciting. It was definitely the angels at the scariest in my opinion - the one point in their whole existence before Series 7 that they were the big threat to the leading characters. I think the Maze of the Dead was a fantastic setting for the episode - it felt like going on a Geography trip with The Doctor, and happening to bump into his "mysterious lady friend".

Yes, River Song returns after her initial appearance, and it's interesting to see her character outside of the library. At the time, she was a wonderful hark back to the RTD era, though now in the Library story she has become a taster of what is to come. Alex Kingston delivered a refreshing performance that was quite in tone with her role from Series 4 - before getting tied down in plots about herself, this was stage two of the River Song confusathon. Her mysterious arrest is a sub-plot of quite some interest. Her screen time with Amy makes her screen time with Donna feel cruelly short, though now knowing the whole Pond soap opera, it is understandable why. She definitely delivers the most interesting character of the piece, though the inclusion of the brilliant Iain Glen was also inspired.

The first story ups the ante with the statues all being weeping angels, and for some reason I didn't see the development coming in the slightest. It was very well done... and with a gunshot and an animated Graham Norton later, the Weeping Angels had an interesting story. The decision to make them talk via Bob was a bold move to make, and maybe one that would go on to take the edge off the Angels scare factor, but it was all in an attempt to expand on the abilities of these supposedly deadly assassins.

Flesh and Stone is somewhat responsible for my gripes with this two parter. It was without a doubt a fantastic story, and quite in tone with the first part. However, the decision to relay everything over to the "crack in the wall" story was a sore waste of the weeping angels, who were essentially cast aside in their own story - the same would happen again in Series 7, with the departure of Amy and Rory overshadowing their role... a decent Angels story about the Angels we have not had, surprisingly. The crack in the wall was admittedly unexpected, and it did leave a lot of questions posed for the remainder of the series, particularly as River refers to the opening of the Pandorica. These were all fascinating elements, but the Angels were left very short changed and the story felt like it had run out of fuel around half way - igniting the main story arc to fill the runtime. It was a shame as what we got of the Angels was intriguing... making Amy count down was quite chilling, whilst the death of Father Octavian was admirable and brutal. Seeing the Angels move was a step too far, and a sign that the story had gone out for shock value.

Testing the waters is an acceptable reason to have a few flaws in your story, and that's exactly the case with this two-parter. It has a lot going on, but by it's second episodes midway point it has too much going on. As such, it was a case of a fantastic story on the surface, with too much vying for the attention of the viewer. This was a prologue of what was to come in the Moffat era - the only major flaw I have with his episodes in fact. But at its heart, this was a massive step up from the Dalek episode beforehand, and kept things going well for the fifth series.
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