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Old 08-12-2012, 12:39
Thine Wonk
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With applications for 4G licences needing to be in by next week, which of the 4 will roll out 4G fast and with widest geographical and population coverage?

It'll be interesting to look back at this thread in a year to two and see. All 4 operators went to the Westminster e-forum to discuss 4G yesterday.

Three doesn't seem too fussed about LTE and is playing a very relaxed game, saying the difference from DC-HSDPA isn't great, but called for more spectrum to be released in future.

EE say they have an ambition to have 98% population coverage of LTE by 2014.

O2 say that they are committed to rolling out 4G and that 13-14 years after launch they think it will benefit us greatly - 3G all over again?

Vodafone - . Backhaul is the key thing to enable this and the regulator needs to deal with this
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:52
Matt D
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13-14 years for O2 sounds about right!
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:55
Thine Wonk
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People will think I made that up, but it's a direct quote.
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Old 08-12-2012, 15:06
legends wear 7
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Vodafone have publically stated that while the OFCOM terms are 98% outdoor coverage by end of 2016 they will have 98% indoor coverage by end of 2014 i think it was
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Old 08-12-2012, 15:12
Thine Wonk
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Vodafone have publically stated that while the OFCOM terms are 98% outdoor coverage by end of 2016 they will have 98% indoor coverage by end of 2014 i think it was
That will mean O2 too, since they are network sharing?
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Old 08-12-2012, 15:14
wavejockglw
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Vodafone have publically stated that while the OFCOM terms are 98% outdoor coverage by end of 2016 they will have 98% indoor coverage by end of 2014 i think it was
And whatever applies to Vodafone will apply to O2 as they are jointly building their 4G LTE network with each responsible for the installation and maintenance of all the infrastructure for half of the UK. Both have already started to install LTE compatible equipment at key sites so they can compete with EE at the earliest opportunity. Both also have upgrade guarantees for handset users so its in their interest to move as quickly as the licence process allows.
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Old 08-12-2012, 15:42
Thine Wonk
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It will be interesting to see who applies, applications have to be in by next week. For 3G Tesco bid, but didn't win, so ended up going 50/50 with a network and setting up their own company for it. Telefonica didn't win in 3G, so just bought BT cellnet! NTL didn't win 3G, but later launched a MVNO with EE, we also had some bids from Ireland and Australian carriers.

It'll be interesting to see who puts their name in the game this time. I guess Ofcom will announce who is in the auction in the next week.
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Old 08-12-2012, 19:24
Everything Goes
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And whatever applies to Vodafone will apply to O2 as they are jointly building their 4G LTE network with each responsible for the installation and maintenance of all the infrastructure for half of the UK. Both have already started to install LTE compatible equipment at key sites so they can compete with EE at the earliest opportunity. Both also have upgrade guarantees for handset users so its in their interest to move as quickly as the licence process allows.
The deal does not necessarily include 4G and the are potential legal issues anyway.

A company called CTI Ltd would be created to own and manage Vodafone and O2 masts across the country, and would solidify the existing partnership into a legal company structure. However, it would include a property transaction that could qualify as a reviewable merger under the Enterprise Act.

Vodafone says: “We can confirm that Telefónica and Vodafone will shortly be submitting formally their plans to solidify their existing partnership by creating a company that will own a grid of 18,500 joint mast sites across the country.

There is also a second part of the partnership that would see Telefónica managing the network in the east of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and Vodafone in the west of England and Wales.

Vodafone and O2 say their competing networks would provide good quality 2G, 3G and potentially 4G services to 98 per cent of the population, which would benefit the consumer.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/93a1bb98-e...#axzz2EUNjIS7K
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Old 08-12-2012, 19:38
Thine Wonk
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That link if from August, they were given the goahead by the Ofcom and the OFT in October.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...-networks.html

Mobile operators O2 (Telefonica) and Vodafone have been given the green light to merge their UK based 2G, 3G and future 4G (LTE) platforms through a new network sharing agreement that will also lay the foundations for 98% population coverage by the end of 2015 (two years ahead of Ofcom’s 2017 deadline).

Guy Laurence, CEO of Vodafone UK, said:

“This is excellent news for British consumers, businesses and the wider economy: we are promising indoor coverage for 98% of the UK population across all technologies within three years.
It will be interesting to see if they achieve that goal though.
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Old 08-12-2012, 19:47
Everything Goes
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That link if from August, they were given the goahead by the Ofcom and the OFT in October.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...-networks.html



It will be interesting to see if they achieve that goal though.
I think Ofcoms go ahead my be separate from the Enterprise Act concern about the property transaction.
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Old 08-12-2012, 19:50
Thine Wonk
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I think Ofcoms go ahead my be separate from the Enterprise Act concern about the property transaction.
No the OFT have approved it as I posted earlier.
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Old 08-12-2012, 19:58
Everything Goes
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No the OFT have approved it as I posted earlier.
Ok I see that. Here is the OFT ruling:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mer...2/vodafone.pdf
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Old 08-12-2012, 20:19
Thine Wonk
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So by the sounds of it, the companies involved think they can get to 98% population coverage in just 2 years, some even saying that's indoor coverage.

So we should have a bright LTE future ahead, that said we don't know if any 3rd parties are going to enter the action, we should find out in the next week.

However what they say before the auction and what they actually deliver could be different. O2 published this map showing their expected coverage of the new O2 UMTS network! It had about 2-3% white (uncovered) areas, the reality it a total opposite all these years later.

What they said they would deliver:
http://www.mobilecomms-technology.co.../gprs_uk1.html

What they delivered:
http://i.imgur.com/ppurl.png
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Old 08-12-2012, 21:40
neatheyc
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In regards to coverage for data, Three currently has the best for value for money. They have a lot more sites setup with hsdpa around Britain which realistically reaches only around 2 / 3 mb less than lte. Which is their strong selling point as they have fast connection speeds now, not just a few locations like EE.

EE are first to have lte but all the rest will be around a year behind them and are already in testing stages.
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Old 08-12-2012, 22:07
Everything Goes
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So by the sounds of it, the companies involved think they can get to 98% population coverage in just 2 years, some even saying that's indoor coverage.

So we should have a bright LTE future ahead, that said we don't know if any 3rd parties are going to enter the action, we should find out in the next week.

However what they say before the auction and what they actually deliver could be different. O2 published this map showing their expected coverage of the new O2 UMTS network! It had about 2-3% white (uncovered) areas, the reality it a total opposite all these years later.

What they said they would deliver:
http://www.mobilecomms-technology.co.../gprs_uk1.html

What they delivered:
http://i.imgur.com/ppurl.png
PMSL

You couldn't make it up! Now where is Wavejock to put some spin on this
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Old 08-12-2012, 22:14
Everything Goes
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With applications for 4G licences needing to be in by next week, which of the 4 will roll out 4G fast and with widest geographical and population coverage?

It'll be interesting to look back at this thread in a year to two and see. All 4 operators went to the Westminster e-forum to discuss 4G yesterday.

Three doesn't seem too fussed about LTE and is playing a very relaxed game, saying the difference from DC-HSDPA isn't great, but called for more spectrum to be released in future.

EE say they have an ambition to have 98% population coverage of LTE by 2014.

O2 say that they are committed to rolling out 4G and that 13-14 years after launch they think it will benefit us greatly - 3G all over again?

Vodafone - . Backhaul is the key thing to enable this and the regulator needs to deal with this
Only one part of the 800MHz spectrum will have a coverage obligation 2x10 MHz at 800MHz. The 2x5 MHz at 800MHz has no coverage obligation.

Guess what O2 will be aiming for!

At any rate my contract with O2 is up next year and I will be looking to see what these skinflints do or more to the point don't do.

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1757912
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Old 08-12-2012, 22:41
Thine Wonk
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PMSL

You couldn't make it up! Now where is Wavejock to put some spin on this
I'd certainly be interested to see what he says about that.
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:02
wavejockglw
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This is yet another thread created as flamebait as the clear anti-O2 posts confirm.

Same old, same old prejudiced stuff directed at the UK's single most successful mobile operator. Some folks just never give up spinning their own personal vendetta.

3 were first to market 3G and were hopeless for years. They were the last company to embrace the idea of mobile Internet and now they claim to the network built for the Internet. They have learned from their past errors and repositioned themselves to achieve some growth on the back of the consumer uptake of smartphones. Others won't be sitting back and EE have already made a head start to dispel the data champion status that 3 have spent a fortune to develop. I'm sure O2 and Vodafone won't be slow to respond as the networks increase their focus on data services. Of course there will be folks on here who continually point to the smart business choice O2 made by not investing fortunes in 2100MHz UMTS as a negative re coverage but in reality with 900MHz now available and with a growing user base and high penetration of smartphones O2s strategy has proved to be the one with the most foresight.

The point is that despite some who seem to have their needle stuck in the same groove networks change and if 3 can make improvements so can others and it is naïve to suggest otherwise considering the very competitive market that all the UK networks have to try and make a return from.

I'd bet that O2 and Vodafone will make huge efforts to establish LTE as soon as they are licenced, so confident that I'd buy shares in O2 if Telefonica decide to offer that opportunity in the near future.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:58
Thine Wonk
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So in a thread about what networks we think will give us fast, wide area 4G you don't think it's relevant to look back at what the networks promised in the past and then didn't deliver? and you think it's unfair to highlight that?

What they said they would deliver:
http://www.mobilecomms-technology.co.../gprs_uk1.html

What they delivered:
http://i.imgur.com/ppurl.png

Why not comment on this?

If you'd bought shares in Telefonica a year ago and sold them today you would have halved your money! If you bought shares a few years ago you'd only have about 30% of your original investment left, without taking into account several % inflation each year, so in real terms you'd have lost 80% of it. They have also now scrapped the dividend because they couldn't afford to pay it.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:59
Thine Wonk
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I don't really get your points on 3 in this thread, you've only brought them up for the sake of it as it doesn't have much to do with the topic of which networks will deliver the best 4G for us in a reasonable time period.

That quote from O2, that 4G will be of great benefit in 13-14 years is a direct quote from Friday. It's a shame no comment on that, or the 3G coverage predictions from the 'new O2 UMTS network'.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:39
moox
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Some folks just never give up spinning
Words that you should listen to and take on board, I think.

3 were first to market 3G and were hopeless for years. They were the last company to embrace the idea of mobile Internet and now they claim to the network built for the Internet. They have learned from their past errors and repositioned themselves to achieve some growth on the back of the consumer uptake of smartphones.
Not wrong there - they thought a walled garden would be all people would ever want, and that they'd make money from selling apps and ringtones and the crap that people wanted back then.

However how is it a "claim" that they have the best network for the internet? They have the broadest 3G coverage, have continuously made investments in improving on their already great coverage and capacity, first to start deploying various HSPA revisions, and they have incredibly sensible data pricing (I'm happy to pay £12 for 3 months' 3G on my laptop just in case I need it).

At the risk of sounding like you, they do top surveys by the likes of YouGov for mobile broadband for coverage, speeds, reliability etc. http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Awar...bile_Broadband

I'm sure O2 and Vodafone won't be slow to respond as the networks increase their focus on data services.
Smartphones have been around for many years, the "post-iPhone" era has been with us for five years. Networks such as 3 have kept up with the times, as you admit, and yet O2 and Vodafone seem to think EDGE is all anyone ever needs. O2 only bothers to improve 3G coverage when OFCOM whips them in to doing it.

Of course there will be folks on here who continually point to the smart business choice O2 made by not investing fortunes in 2100MHz UMTS as a negative re coverage but in reality with 900MHz now available and with a growing user base and high penetration of smartphones O2s strategy has proved to be the one with the most foresight.
900MHz 3G has done bugger all around here, and I live in a rural area. There's still just about zero O2 3G coverage (I can get a tiny signal if I use aerobatics to position the phone, and that's probably because I live not far from a trunk road). Meanwhile my EE phone is constantly on 3G no matter what rural backroad I use and that's with that horrible nasty 2100MHz spectrum.

The point is that despite some who seem to have their needle stuck in the same groove networks change and if 3 can make improvements so can others and it is naïve to suggest otherwise considering the very competitive market that all the UK networks have to try and make a return from.
Of course, but O2 and Vodafone haven't changed and they've had years to show this. They have consistently done the bare minimum, urban-targeted rollout with mostly disappointing results. 3 are highly talked about because they really have reinvented themselves and got things done. There's no vendetta against any network, as it is not a vendetta to state the facts regarding a particular network's rollout and attitude to investment, and in O2's case there is a mountain of evidence to back it up.

I'd bet that O2 and Vodafone will make huge efforts to establish LTE as soon as they are licenced, so confident that I'd buy shares in O2 if Telefonica decide to offer that opportunity in the near future.
The way you go on about it I'm surprised if you don't already own shares in Telefonica.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:03
wavejockglw
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It's not realistic to suggest that Vodafone and O2 haven't changed and have done the bare minimum!

Neither could have kept up with demand for their services had they not made significant investments in expanding data capacity. They could not hope to hold the 45 million customers they serve if their offering was greatly inferior to others in the marketplace. Both Vodafone and O2 have coverage where it matters to the majority of customers and both have high volumes of smartphone users who would be screaming and leaving in droves if they could not get the use from their products in comparison to friends on other networks.

Vodafone's investment in Cable and Wireless's Fibre Network proves they have done far more than the bare minimum! O2's rapid deployment of 900MHz UMTS and upgrade to HSPA+ also proves they are investing. Add to that the investment ahead of licencing to install LTE and it's hard to take seriously claims that these companies 'haven't changed'.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:07
Thine Wonk
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This is one of those jaw dropping moments when you look at what they said the new O2 UMTS 3G network would have coverage wise, against what they've actually delivered, which is the least 3G coverage of any UK network and the majority of the country not geographically covered.

You have no comment on this at all Wavejock? it's literally shocking. I can't believe you don't have anything to say on it, but instead just repeat the same PR lines you always post.

http://www.mobilecomms-technology.co.../gprs_uk1.html
http://i.imgur.com/ppurl.png

Re: your post above, why are they still the most behind on mobile data then? why do they have the least 3G coverage of any network and why do 68% of their customers not own a smartphone? Why does the biggest single network by customer numbers have the least mobile data usage in the UK?

All this leads me to believe they don't take 3G seriously or provide a 3G network anywhere near as good as the others. So will that trend continue for 4G?
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:19
wavejockglw
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As stated previously, this thread has been created as flame bait.

The constant posting of very outdated maps (which don't actually have any reference that O2 produced them) reveals it's true purpose which many will agree comes as no surprise whatsoever.

It's a pity the OP has chosen to refer to old materials on a thread created to discuss the future development of UK mobile telecommunications, but perhaps that was the intention? I confident we will see the same flawed evidence posted time and again to taunt a response.

Now that the thread has gone off-topic and is back to the already well discussed 3G coverage issue, it's time to move on...... nothing new likely here.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:23
Thine Wonk
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As stated previously, this thread has been created as flame bait.

The constant posting of very outdated maps reveals it's true purpose which many will agree comes as no surprise whatsoever.

It's a pity the OP has chosen to refer to old materials on a thread created to discuss the future development of UK mobile telecommunications, but perhaps that was the intention?

Now that the thread has gone off-topic and is back to the already well discussed 3G coverage issue, it's time to move on...... nothing new likely here.
It's a pity you won't comment on the maps, the latest of which was posted in another thread and is taken directly from O2's site last week.

So least % population coverage
Definitely least % geographic coverage
Least data usage by it's customers
Least smartphone penetration

If only 32% of their customers have a smartphone is it worth them investing heavily in 4G? they don't seem to be attracting much in the way of smartphone, mobile internet or data users.

The main question of this thread though is what will they deliver us in terms of 4G?
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