When will NFC Contactless Payment be available?

call100 · 12-12-2012, 17:27

Its an age/generation thing I guess...When chip and pin and Internet banking were introduced a lot of the older generation were all wobbly about it.
In a few years, when NFC has become the norm and something else is being rolled out the same people will be bleating about how dangerous it is and 'I'm not ever using it' will be trotted out again.
It's not being forced on anyone, so, just don't use it if you have any reservations....

The Wizard · 12-12-2012, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise747

Maybe so, but chip and pin is a bit more secure than just sticking a card against a terminal with no way of knowing if the card belongs to you or not.

Even the old signature system was more secure, if use right.
Oh look at this card in the middle of the road, oh, it got a NFC chip on, i will go into that shop and get something for just under £20, now lets go and have a coffee, now i pop into Tescos and get just under £20 worth of food.

Sure it may come up with enter pin, but it may not and if you got it set for say 5 time before it asks for the pin, but if someone is lucky, they could get almost £100 out of it before the owner knows.

The problem is now that if a bank do give you one of these cards they will not swap it to a normal one, i know someone who have got one and their bank said she had no choice but to have it. the only thing she could do was to set it so it will ask for the pin every time it is used.

i certainly would not want one on a phone and if I ended with one on a mobile phone I would make sure it is disabled.

But all contactless payments are insured same as if you lost your credit card so you will get your money back if it gets stolen and someone starts using it so you've not lost anything. That never happened on the old signature system where anyone could forge a signature. Half the time they never even checked it. I signed Mickey Mouse once in a restaurant to test and see if it would go through and it did. That wasn't so long ago yet people weren't paranoid about security then. If your card got lost of stolen you just rang the bank and cancelled your card. At least this was your insured and thieves can only make small purchases.

noise747 · 12-12-2012, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by IslandNiles

^^^

Customers aren't liable for the cost of purchases made via contactless technology, as far as I remember. As you say, there is no security. That's why it's limited to low amounts and also a number of transactions per day, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveoc64

Why would you care though?

As pointed out, Visa and MasterCard make it MANDATORY that the bank/card issuer refunds ANY contactless transactions that the customer reports as being fraudulent.

The bank would basically need CCTV evidence to prove otherwise.

I lost my contactless debit card a couple of weeks ago - didn't have any problems.

So if someone uses your card before you report it missing the bank or card issuer will refund you, so why don't they do that with normal cards? They will only refund if the card is used after you have reported it lost or stolen.

Even so, they may do it for a while, but if they start losing too much money they will stop it dead.

Daveoc64 · 12-12-2012, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise747

So if someone uses your card before you report it missing the bank or card issuer will refund you, so why don't they do that with normal cards? They will only refund if the card is used after you have reported it lost or stolen.

Even so, they may do it for a while, but if they start losing too much money they will stop it dead.

They do it because of people like you! Completely paranoid about technology that's actually quite secure.

whoever,hey · 12-12-2012, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise747

Maybe so, but chip and pin is a bit more secure than just sticking a card against a terminal with no way of knowing if the card belongs to you or not.

Even the old signature system was more secure, if use right.
Oh look at this card in the middle of the road, oh, it got a NFC chip on, i will go into that shop and get something for just under £20, now lets go and have a coffee, now i pop into Tescos and get just under £20 worth of food.

Sure it may come up with enter pin, but it may not and if you got it set for say 5 time before it asks for the pin, but if someone is lucky, they could get almost £100 out of it before the owner knows.

The problem is now that if a bank do give you one of these cards they will not swap it to a normal one, i know someone who have got one and their bank said she had no choice but to have it. the only thing she could do was to set it so it will ask for the pin every time it is used.

i certainly would not want one on a phone and if I ended with one on a mobile phone I would make sure it is disabled.

Customers aren't liable for any loss and its limited to £20. I asked my bank about my concerns and he said he hadn't heard of any theft from it yet.

noise747 · 12-12-2012, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by call100

Its an age/generation thing I guess...When chip and pin and Internet banking were introduced a lot of the older generation were all wobbly about it.
In a few years, when NFC has become the norm and something else is being rolled out the same people will be bleating about how dangerous it is and 'I'm not ever using it' will be trotted out again.

Maybe you are right, i must admit I did not think the chip and pin idea was a good idea, I realised it was more secure, but it does hold the line up when shopping. i don't just blame chip and pins, it is also other cards as well like silly loyalty cards.

I think things was much better when people used cash and I think supermarkets should have a cash only checkout, too much mucking around at checkouts now and it don't help that supermarkets including the one I work at keeps shutting their basket only checkout.

Quote:

It's not being forced on anyone, so, just don't use it if you have any reservations....

Not in the sense that you have to use a card to pay as you can use cash, but if you do use a card, some bank are forcing their customer to have NFC cards, thankfully mine is not.

As for phones having NFC and people using them at checkouts, it will take even longer to pay for shopping.

i don't mind different technology, but sometimes we just do things because we can, not because it is required or makes things easie. you only have to look at self scan checkouts

The Wizard · 12-12-2012, 20:16

Well in my opinion it's not as secure as chip and pin but at least its insured. It is however more secure than the old signature system. The old way anyone could steal or find your missing card and make purchases of unlimited amounts with a rough forge of a signature and only about 1 in 20 sales assistants would bother to check the signature.

On the old signature system how many people had their card stolen and their bank account drained? Not so many as people would make out I would imagine. I think it was still pretty rare.

Lets also not forget that should your chip and pin debit card get stolen, people can still make over the phone or online purchases without any identification so again it's not totally secure.

A few weeks ago my mum went shopping and couldn't remember her pin number so the woman said it's ok, you'll just have to sign for it instead. For all they knew that card could have been stolen. I went to one of those wacky warehouse pubs with my family 2 weeks ago and they only operated a swipe and sign system. Again, I could have been anyone. Just a few examples to highlight that even the current system isn't water tight.

Daveoc64 · 12-12-2012, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard

On the old signature system how many people had their card stolen and their bank account drained? Not so many as people would make out I would imagine. I think it was still pretty rare.

Something close to £200 million of fraud per year has been prevented since Chip and PIN was introduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Lets also not forget that should your chip and pin debit card get stolen, people can still make over the phone or online purchases without any identification so again it's not totally secure.

Utter tosh. Is a lock on a door not secure if you can go in the window?

Chip and PIN was only ever intended to reduce fraud where the cardholder is present at the time of sale - primarily through preventing skimming.

whoever,hey · 12-12-2012, 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Lets also not forget that should your chip and pin debit card get stolen, people can still make over the phone or online purchases without any identification so again it's not totally secure.

I am really confused about this point. What has that got to do with the relative security of signature/chip&pin/NFC?

The Wizard · 12-12-2012, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

I am really confused about this point. What has that got to do with the relative security of signature/chip&pin/NFC?

Because I'm trying to point out to all those who oppose NFC because they say it's not secure, I'm simply highlighting that the system in place now and the one we had before which some places still use, has just as many security holes yet we never had people saying, 'Stop don't use it, it's not secure.'

Surely if the banks are insuring all contactless transactions against fraud then the customer can't lose therefore it's equally as secure as a regular debit card. Plus, if you're just using NFC on your mobile then it has to be more secure than carrying a card around which can be used in other ways. If someone steals your phone the only thing you'll lose is your phone.

The Wizard · 12-12-2012, 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveoc64

Utter tosh. Is a lock on a door not secure if you can go in the window?

Chip and PIN was only ever intended to reduce fraud where the cardholder is present at the time of sale - primarily through preventing skimming.

My point was that an NFC card which is stolen is no less secure than one without it but a phone with NFC is more secure because thieves who steal your phone can't drain your bank account because it's all transactions are insured.

whoever,hey · 12-12-2012, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Because I'm trying to point out to all those who oppose NFC because they say it's not secure, I'm simply highlighting that the system in place now and the one we had before which some places still use, has just as many security holes yet we never had people saying, 'Stop don't use it, it's not secure.'

Surely if the banks are insuring all contactless transactions against fraud then the customer can't lose therefore it's equally as secure as a regular debit card. Plus, if you're just using NFC on your mobile then it has to be more secure than carrying a card around which can be used in other ways. If someone steals your phone the only thing you'll lose is your phone.

Oh i see. I had concerns about NFC on my debit cards, so i went to clarify it with my bank. Now i dont give a toss about it. I'll use it if the cashier notices i have it, they did once in a pub.

Gormond · 12-12-2012, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

Oh i see. I had concerns about NFC on my debit cards, so i went to clarify it with my bank. Now i dont give a toss about it. I'll use it if the cashier notices i have it, they did once in a pub.

On a card is very slightly faster to use, on a phone I dont see the point, I'm never gonna use it.

IslandNiles · 12-12-2012, 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gormond

On a card is very slightly faster to use, on a phone I dont see the point, I'm never gonna use it.

It's REALLY fast on a card, at least the ones I've used in M&S. Just hold it in front of the reader and it says 'approved' instantly.

whoever,hey · 12-12-2012, 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gormond

On a card is very slightly faster to use, on a phone I dont see the point, I'm never gonna use it.

Same here. Unless i go out without my wallet, which i dont.

dslrocks · 12-12-2012, 23:28

Quote:

Plus, if you're just using NFC on your mobile then it has to be more secure than carrying a card around which can be used in other ways. If someone steals your phone the only thing you'll lose is your phone.

Not really - by bonking your phone against the reader it's advertising to everyone in the store that you have an expensive smartphone that can be nicked later when you walk outside.

When you lose your phone it's not just the phone but the data on it. Data is worth more than the phone sometimes, many people have personal info in email, texts etc.

I can't ever see NFC on phones taking off. Everyone's got their wallet or purse on them, and battery life is appalling on smartphones.

The main issue is that some places have rather bad training or lack of knowlege of contactless - Yates in Leicester Sq. being one of them.

They've got contactless enabled card machines yet some of the staff seem pre programmed to put your card in and ask for a pin rather than seeing it's contactless and tapping it on the reader. The former takes so much longer than contactless as the machine has to dial home etc.

The Wizard · 12-12-2012, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dslrocks

Not really - by bonking your phone against the reader it's advertising to everyone in the store that you have an expensive smartphone that can be nicked later when you walk outside.

When you lose your phone it's not just the phone but the data on it. Data is worth more than the phone sometimes, many people have personal info in email, texts etc.

I can't ever see NFC on phones taking off. Everyone's got their wallet or purse on them, and battery life is appalling on smartphones.

The main issue is that some places have rather bad training or lack of knowlege of contactless - Yates in Leicester Sq. being one of them.

They've got contactless enabled card machines yet some of the staff seem pre programmed to put your card in and ask for a pin rather than seeing it's contactless and tapping it on the reader. The former takes so much longer than contactless as the machine has to dial home etc.

The way I see it is, it's just an extra backup. There have been times when I've got changed to go out and left my wallet at home. It would be good to know that in such circumstances I have a back up just in case.

You're right though that most places have no idea what you're talking about when you mention contactless payment. I also think a lot of people don't know about it. I rang Nat West today to request a new contactless debit card as mine is due to expire and I was approved right away. I should receive it in 7 to 10 days and looking forward to trying it out.

whoever,hey · 12-12-2012, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard

looking forward to trying it out.

Its very easy to use, when its available. I've only used mine once in a month.

The Wizard · 13-12-2012, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoever,hey

Its very easy to use, when its available. I've only used mine once in a month.

Out of interest is there a way of telling by looking at the terminal whether it accepts contactless? I don't want to look like an idiot by slapping my card against a regular chip and pin reader for it not to work and if I have to ask every time it kinda defeats the object of it being fast and instant. Do they look different and where do you touch your card? is it on the screen, on the side?

Stiggles · 13-12-2012, 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise747

As for phones having NFC and people using them at checkouts, it will take even longer to pay for shopping.

Nonsense.

Using NFC.

Cashier "Thats £15 please"
Me:- Takes out phone, holds phone to card reader. Within 1 second..'BEEP'. Transaction complete.
Cashier hands me receipt.

Using card.

Cashier "Thats £15 please.
Me:- Takes out card, makes sure i put it in the right way, insert, wait till she footers about asking cashback etc then i enter pin. Wait for authorisation then remove card.
Cashier hands over receipt.

NFC is far faster having used both.

Quote:

i don't mind different technology, but sometimes we just do things because we can, not because it is required or makes things easie. you only have to look at self scan checkouts

No, thats to save companies money. Nothing more.

Christ! Is there anything you wont whine about?! If it was up to you, we would still be in the bloody stone age!

Stiggles · 13-12-2012, 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dslrocks

Not really - by bonking your phone against the reader it's advertising to everyone in the store that you have an expensive smartphone that can be nicked later when you walk outside.

Walking along the road talking on it or using it will advertise that. Whats your point?

Quote:

When you lose your phone it's not just the phone but the data on it. Data is worth more than the phone sometimes, many people have personal info in email, texts etc.

You can lock and wipe pretty much any smartphone online so no one can get it.

Quote:

I can't ever see NFC on phones taking off. Everyone's got their wallet or purse on them, and battery life is appalling on smartphones.

I don't. Ive forgotten my wallet/card on numerous occasions. Also i can get 2 days out of my Galaxy S3 with little use.

Quote:

The main issue is that some places have rather bad training or lack of knowlege of contactless - Yates in Leicester Sq. being one of them.

They've got contactless enabled card machines yet some of the staff seem pre programmed to put your card in and ask for a pin rather than seeing it's contactless and tapping it on the reader. The former takes so much longer than contactless as the machine has to dial home etc.

Yup, they need to train folk up but it will take off and quickly. We have contactless in the hotel i work in and its used loads daily.

Daveoc64 · 13-12-2012, 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by noise747

As for phones having NFC and people using them at checkouts, it will take even longer to pay for shopping.

I really don't understand why you say this.

Chip and PIN is far faster than the old system.
Contactless and NFC are far faster than Chip and PIN.

I'm much faster on a Self Service Checkout.

Contactless transactions are designed to reduce time in multiple ways:

-Usually the payment terminal doesn't need to get confirmation from the bank to authorise the transaction
-You don't get a receipt
-You don't have to enter your PIN

noise747 · 13-12-2012, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveoc64

They do it because of people like you! Completely paranoid about technology that's actually quite secure.

Then when they got our trust they will stop it dead, so if you lose the card and someone uses it, then that is just too bad.

No technology is secure and if I was paranoid about technology, I would not be using a computer and typing this message.

i don't trust banks, our government, our police or the top nobs in our forces, but that is not being paranoid.

TerryH · 13-12-2012, 09:14

Barclaycard already have an app for contactless payments but it's only available to orange customers (I'm not with orange so haven't used it).

The only places local to me where I can use my contactless debit card are M&S, Greggs and McDonalds, none of which I use on a regular basis.

However, I will always pay contactlessly if it's available because it's much quicker.

noise747 · 13-12-2012, 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard

Out of interest is there a way of telling by looking at the terminal whether it accepts contactless? I don't want to look like an idiot by slapping my card against a regular chip and pin reader for it not to work and if I have to ask every time it kinda defeats the object of it being fast and instant. Do they look different and where do you touch your card? is it on the screen, on the side?

They should have the same symbol that is on your card telling you that it is a NFC terminal. even I can tell if a terminal is one and I don't have a card.

12-12-2012, 17:27	#26
call100 Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,572	Its an age/generation thing I guess...When chip and pin and Internet banking were introduced a lot of the older generation were all wobbly about it. In a few years, when NFC has become the norm and something else is being rolled out the same people will be bleating about how dangerous it is and 'I'm not ever using it' will be trotted out again. It's not being forced on anyone, so, just don't use it if you have any reservations....

12-12-2012, 19:47	#27
The Wizard Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10,516	Quote: Originally Posted by noise747 Maybe so, but chip and pin is a bit more secure than just sticking a card against a terminal with no way of knowing if the card belongs to you or not. Even the old signature system was more secure, if use right. Oh look at this card in the middle of the road, oh, it got a NFC chip on, i will go into that shop and get something for just under £20, now lets go and have a coffee, now i pop into Tescos and get just under £20 worth of food. Sure it may come up with enter pin, but it may not and if you got it set for say 5 time before it asks for the pin, but if someone is lucky, they could get almost £100 out of it before the owner knows. The problem is now that if a bank do give you one of these cards they will not swap it to a normal one, i know someone who have got one and their bank said she had no choice but to have it. the only thing she could do was to set it so it will ask for the pin every time it is used. i certainly would not want one on a phone and if I ended with one on a mobile phone I would make sure it is disabled. But all contactless payments are insured same as if you lost your credit card so you will get your money back if it gets stolen and someone starts using it so you've not lost anything. That never happened on the old signature system where anyone could forge a signature. Half the time they never even checked it. I signed Mickey Mouse once in a restaurant to test and see if it would go through and it did. That wasn't so long ago yet people weren't paranoid about security then. If your card got lost of stolen you just rang the bank and cancelled your card. At least this was your insured and thieves can only make small purchases.

12-12-2012, 19:52	#28
noise747 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 22,810	Quote: Originally Posted by IslandNiles ^^^ Customers aren't liable for the cost of purchases made via contactless technology, as far as I remember. As you say, there is no security. That's why it's limited to low amounts and also a number of transactions per day, I think. Quote: Originally Posted by Daveoc64 Why would you care though? As pointed out, Visa and MasterCard make it MANDATORY that the bank/card issuer refunds ANY contactless transactions that the customer reports as being fraudulent. The bank would basically need CCTV evidence to prove otherwise. I lost my contactless debit card a couple of weeks ago - didn't have any problems. So if someone uses your card before you report it missing the bank or card issuer will refund you, so why don't they do that with normal cards? They will only refund if the card is used after you have reported it lost or stolen. Even so, they may do it for a while, but if they start losing too much money they will stop it dead.

12-12-2012, 19:57	#29
Daveoc64 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bristol (BBC1 West) Posts: 15,143	Quote: Originally Posted by noise747 So if someone uses your card before you report it missing the bank or card issuer will refund you, so why don't they do that with normal cards? They will only refund if the card is used after you have reported it lost or stolen. Even so, they may do it for a while, but if they start losing too much money they will stop it dead. They do it because of people like you! Completely paranoid about technology that's actually quite secure.

12-12-2012, 19:57	#30
whoever,hey Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 30,072	Quote: Originally Posted by noise747 Maybe so, but chip and pin is a bit more secure than just sticking a card against a terminal with no way of knowing if the card belongs to you or not. Even the old signature system was more secure, if use right. Oh look at this card in the middle of the road, oh, it got a NFC chip on, i will go into that shop and get something for just under £20, now lets go and have a coffee, now i pop into Tescos and get just under £20 worth of food. Sure it may come up with enter pin, but it may not and if you got it set for say 5 time before it asks for the pin, but if someone is lucky, they could get almost £100 out of it before the owner knows. The problem is now that if a bank do give you one of these cards they will not swap it to a normal one, i know someone who have got one and their bank said she had no choice but to have it. the only thing she could do was to set it so it will ask for the pin every time it is used. i certainly would not want one on a phone and if I ended with one on a mobile phone I would make sure it is disabled. Customers aren't liable for any loss and its limited to £20. I asked my bank about my concerns and he said he hadn't heard of any theft from it yet.

12-12-2012, 20:02	#31
noise747 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 22,810	Quote: Originally Posted by call100 Its an age/generation thing I guess...When chip and pin and Internet banking were introduced a lot of the older generation were all wobbly about it. In a few years, when NFC has become the norm and something else is being rolled out the same people will be bleating about how dangerous it is and 'I'm not ever using it' will be trotted out again. Maybe you are right, i must admit I did not think the chip and pin idea was a good idea, I realised it was more secure, but it does hold the line up when shopping. i don't just blame chip and pins, it is also other cards as well like silly loyalty cards. I think things was much better when people used cash and I think supermarkets should have a cash only checkout, too much mucking around at checkouts now and it don't help that supermarkets including the one I work at keeps shutting their basket only checkout. Quote: It's not being forced on anyone, so, just don't use it if you have any reservations.... Not in the sense that you have to use a card to pay as you can use cash, but if you do use a card, some bank are forcing their customer to have NFC cards, thankfully mine is not. As for phones having NFC and people using them at checkouts, it will take even longer to pay for shopping. i don't mind different technology, but sometimes we just do things because we can, not because it is required or makes things easie. you only have to look at self scan checkouts

12-12-2012, 20:16	#32
The Wizard Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10,516	Well in my opinion it's not as secure as chip and pin but at least its insured. It is however more secure than the old signature system. The old way anyone could steal or find your missing card and make purchases of unlimited amounts with a rough forge of a signature and only about 1 in 20 sales assistants would bother to check the signature. On the old signature system how many people had their card stolen and their bank account drained? Not so many as people would make out I would imagine. I think it was still pretty rare. Lets also not forget that should your chip and pin debit card get stolen, people can still make over the phone or online purchases without any identification so again it's not totally secure. A few weeks ago my mum went shopping and couldn't remember her pin number so the woman said it's ok, you'll just have to sign for it instead. For all they knew that card could have been stolen. I went to one of those wacky warehouse pubs with my family 2 weeks ago and they only operated a swipe and sign system. Again, I could have been anyone. Just a few examples to highlight that even the current system isn't water tight.

12-12-2012, 21:42	#33
Daveoc64 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bristol (BBC1 West) Posts: 15,143	Quote: Originally Posted by The Wizard On the old signature system how many people had their card stolen and their bank account drained? Not so many as people would make out I would imagine. I think it was still pretty rare. Something close to £200 million of fraud per year has been prevented since Chip and PIN was introduced. Quote: Originally Posted by The Wizard Lets also not forget that should your chip and pin debit card get stolen, people can still make over the phone or online purchases without any identification so again it's not totally secure. Utter tosh. Is a lock on a door not secure if you can go in the window? Chip and PIN was only ever intended to reduce fraud where the cardholder is present at the time of sale - primarily through preventing skimming.

12-12-2012, 22:12	#34
whoever,hey Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 30,072	Quote: Originally Posted by The Wizard Lets also not forget that should your chip and pin debit card get stolen, people can still make over the phone or online purchases without any identification so again it's not totally secure. I am really confused about this point. What has that got to do with the relative security of signature/chip&pin/NFC?

12-12-2012, 22:36	#35
The Wizard Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10,516	Quote: Originally Posted by whoever,hey I am really confused about this point. What has that got to do with the relative security of signature/chip&pin/NFC? Because I'm trying to point out to all those who oppose NFC because they say it's not secure, I'm simply highlighting that the system in place now and the one we had before which some places still use, has just as many security holes yet we never had people saying, 'Stop don't use it, it's not secure.' Surely if the banks are insuring all contactless transactions against fraud then the customer can't lose therefore it's equally as secure as a regular debit card. Plus, if you're just using NFC on your mobile then it has to be more secure than carrying a card around which can be used in other ways. If someone steals your phone the only thing you'll lose is your phone.

12-12-2012, 23:00	#36
The Wizard Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10,516	Quote: Originally Posted by Daveoc64 Utter tosh. Is a lock on a door not secure if you can go in the window? Chip and PIN was only ever intended to reduce fraud where the cardholder is present at the time of sale - primarily through preventing skimming. My point was that an NFC card which is stolen is no less secure than one without it but a phone with NFC is more secure because thieves who steal your phone can't drain your bank account because it's all transactions are insured.

12-12-2012, 23:10	#37
whoever,hey Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 30,072	Quote: Originally Posted by The Wizard Because I'm trying to point out to all those who oppose NFC because they say it's not secure, I'm simply highlighting that the system in place now and the one we had before which some places still use, has just as many security holes yet we never had people saying, 'Stop don't use it, it's not secure.' Surely if the banks are insuring all contactless transactions against fraud then the customer can't lose therefore it's equally as secure as a regular debit card. Plus, if you're just using NFC on your mobile then it has to be more secure than carrying a card around which can be used in other ways. If someone steals your phone the only thing you'll lose is your phone. Oh i see. I had concerns about NFC on my debit cards, so i went to clarify it with my bank. Now i dont give a toss about it. I'll use it if the cashier notices i have it, they did once in a pub.

12-12-2012, 23:22	#38
Gormond Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Scotland Posts: 15,714	Quote: Originally Posted by whoever,hey Oh i see. I had concerns about NFC on my debit cards, so i went to clarify it with my bank. Now i dont give a toss about it. I'll use it if the cashier notices i have it, they did once in a pub. On a card is very slightly faster to use, on a phone I dont see the point, I'm never gonna use it.

12-12-2012, 23:24	#39
IslandNiles Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 13,091	Quote: Originally Posted by Gormond On a card is very slightly faster to use, on a phone I dont see the point, I'm never gonna use it. It's REALLY fast on a card, at least the ones I've used in M&S. Just hold it in front of the reader and it says 'approved' instantly.

12-12-2012, 23:28	#41
dslrocks Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Between the gutter and stars Posts: 6,825	Quote: Plus, if you're just using NFC on your mobile then it has to be more secure than carrying a card around which can be used in other ways. If someone steals your phone the only thing you'll lose is your phone. Not really - by bonking your phone against the reader it's advertising to everyone in the store that you have an expensive smartphone that can be nicked later when you walk outside. When you lose your phone it's not just the phone but the data on it. Data is worth more than the phone sometimes, many people have personal info in email, texts etc. I can't ever see NFC on phones taking off. Everyone's got their wallet or purse on them, and battery life is appalling on smartphones. The main issue is that some places have rather bad training or lack of knowlege of contactless - Yates in Leicester Sq. being one of them. They've got contactless enabled card machines yet some of the staff seem pre programmed to put your card in and ask for a pin rather than seeing it's contactless and tapping it on the reader. The former takes so much longer than contactless as the machine has to dial home etc.

12-12-2012, 23:37	#42
The Wizard Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10,516	Quote: Originally Posted by dslrocks Not really - by bonking your phone against the reader it's advertising to everyone in the store that you have an expensive smartphone that can be nicked later when you walk outside. When you lose your phone it's not just the phone but the data on it. Data is worth more than the phone sometimes, many people have personal info in email, texts etc. I can't ever see NFC on phones taking off. Everyone's got their wallet or purse on them, and battery life is appalling on smartphones. The main issue is that some places have rather bad training or lack of knowlege of contactless - Yates in Leicester Sq. being one of them. They've got contactless enabled card machines yet some of the staff seem pre programmed to put your card in and ask for a pin rather than seeing it's contactless and tapping it on the reader. The former takes so much longer than contactless as the machine has to dial home etc. The way I see it is, it's just an extra backup. There have been times when I've got changed to go out and left my wallet at home. It would be good to know that in such circumstances I have a back up just in case. You're right though that most places have no idea what you're talking about when you mention contactless payment. I also think a lot of people don't know about it. I rang Nat West today to request a new contactless debit card as mine is due to expire and I was approved right away. I should receive it in 7 to 10 days and looking forward to trying it out.

12-12-2012, 23:43	#43
whoever,hey Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 30,072	Quote: Originally Posted by The Wizard looking forward to trying it out. Its very easy to use, when its available. I've only used mine once in a month.

13-12-2012, 01:17	#44
The Wizard Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 10,516	Quote: Originally Posted by whoever,hey Its very easy to use, when its available. I've only used mine once in a month. Out of interest is there a way of telling by looking at the terminal whether it accepts contactless? I don't want to look like an idiot by slapping my card against a regular chip and pin reader for it not to work and if I have to ask every time it kinda defeats the object of it being fast and instant. Do they look different and where do you touch your card? is it on the screen, on the side?

13-12-2012, 03:22	#45
Stiggles Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 9,293	Quote: Originally Posted by noise747 As for phones having NFC and people using them at checkouts, it will take even longer to pay for shopping. Nonsense. Using NFC. Cashier "Thats £15 please" Me:- Takes out phone, holds phone to card reader. Within 1 second..'BEEP'. Transaction complete. Cashier hands me receipt. Using card. Cashier "Thats £15 please. Me:- Takes out card, makes sure i put it in the right way, insert, wait till she footers about asking cashback etc then i enter pin. Wait for authorisation then remove card. Cashier hands over receipt. NFC is far faster having used both. Quote: i don't mind different technology, but sometimes we just do things because we can, not because it is required or makes things easie. you only have to look at self scan checkouts No, thats to save companies money. Nothing more. Christ! Is there anything you wont whine about?! If it was up to you, we would still be in the bloody stone age!

13-12-2012, 03:27	#46
Stiggles Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Dundee, Scotland Posts: 9,293	Quote: Originally Posted by dslrocks Not really - by bonking your phone against the reader it's advertising to everyone in the store that you have an expensive smartphone that can be nicked later when you walk outside. Walking along the road talking on it or using it will advertise that. Whats your point? Quote: When you lose your phone it's not just the phone but the data on it. Data is worth more than the phone sometimes, many people have personal info in email, texts etc. You can lock and wipe pretty much any smartphone online so no one can get it. Quote: I can't ever see NFC on phones taking off. Everyone's got their wallet or purse on them, and battery life is appalling on smartphones. I don't. Ive forgotten my wallet/card on numerous occasions. Also i can get 2 days out of my Galaxy S3 with little use. Quote: The main issue is that some places have rather bad training or lack of knowlege of contactless - Yates in Leicester Sq. being one of them. They've got contactless enabled card machines yet some of the staff seem pre programmed to put your card in and ask for a pin rather than seeing it's contactless and tapping it on the reader. The former takes so much longer than contactless as the machine has to dial home etc. Yup, they need to train folk up but it will take off and quickly. We have contactless in the hotel i work in and its used loads daily.

DS Forums

When will NFC Contactless Payment be available?

13-12-2012, 03:40	#47
Daveoc64 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bristol (BBC1 West) Posts: 15,143	Quote: Originally Posted by noise747 As for phones having NFC and people using them at checkouts, it will take even longer to pay for shopping. I really don't understand why you say this. Chip and PIN is far faster than the old system. Contactless and NFC are far faster than Chip and PIN. I'm much faster on a Self Service Checkout. Contactless transactions are designed to reduce time in multiple ways: -Usually the payment terminal doesn't need to get confirmation from the bank to authorise the transaction -You don't get a receipt -You don't have to enter your PIN

13-12-2012, 09:14	#48
noise747 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 22,810	Quote: Originally Posted by Daveoc64 They do it because of people like you! Completely paranoid about technology that's actually quite secure. Then when they got our trust they will stop it dead, so if you lose the card and someone uses it, then that is just too bad. No technology is secure and if I was paranoid about technology, I would not be using a computer and typing this message. i don't trust banks, our government, our police or the top nobs in our forces, but that is not being paranoid.

13-12-2012, 09:14	#49
TerryH Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Suffolk Posts: 932	Barclaycard already have an app for contactless payments but it's only available to orange customers (I'm not with orange so haven't used it). The only places local to me where I can use my contactless debit card are M&S, Greggs and McDonalds, none of which I use on a regular basis. However, I will always pay contactlessly if it's available because it's much quicker.

13-12-2012, 09:17	#50
noise747 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 22,810	Quote: Originally Posted by The Wizard Out of interest is there a way of telling by looking at the terminal whether it accepts contactless? I don't want to look like an idiot by slapping my card against a regular chip and pin reader for it not to work and if I have to ask every time it kinda defeats the object of it being fast and instant. Do they look different and where do you touch your card? is it on the screen, on the side? They should have the same symbol that is on your card telling you that it is a NFC terminal. even I can tell if a terminal is one and I don't have a card.