[Wobbly Steve]

Apparently the answer lies with the phone manufacturers - if you take what the service provider, o2 in this case, tell you!!

Couple of quick questions for the FM's -

1. What is your definition of an SMS (as you understand it)?

2. What is your definition of an MMS (as you understand it)?

An extra question that has a bearing.....

3. What is your understanding of the 1 message, 2 messages display when typing a text (sometimes shown as 160/160 characters)?

Your responses, if you are kind enough to provide them, would be most interesting.

[MGS4SnakeRulez]

1: 160 characters text message
2. Picture message
3. If it goes over 160 characters its 2 messages and so on

[The Lord Lucan]

1 160 characters of text only.
2 any media sent via text: picture, video clip, document or sound file.
3 A message of 161 or more characters.

[IslandNiles]

As above, but I think if you type a VERY long message (longer than 9 or so standard 160 character messages) it will go as MMS rather than SMS.

[gomezz]

The definition of an SMS is a Short Message Service.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by IslandNiles

As above, but I think if you type a VERY long message (longer than 9 or so standard 160 character messages) it will go as MMS rather than SMS.

if you send a very short message to a group of people you can also get nailed for an mms !

[Wobbly Steve]

Thanks for the replies so far - they are as my understanding was.....

....not any more !

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by gomezz

The definition of an SMS is a Short Message Service.

and MMS, with a simple definition?

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by MGS4SnakeRulez

1: 160 characters text message
2. Picture message
3. If it goes over 160 characters its 2 messages and so on

So you would be charged for 2 sms messages etc.?

[IslandNiles]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

if you send a very short message to a group of people you can also get nailed for an mms !

Ah yes, this very issue was discussed here a couple of months back.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by IslandNiles

Ah yes, this very issue was discussed here a couple of months back.

Apologies for the rehash.... - i raised it because it happened to me.... how far back would i have to go to find the thread.

[IslandNiles]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

Apologies for the rehash.... - i raised it because it happened to me.... how far back would i have to go to find the thread.

Oh, I wasn't criticising. It was in a thread about something else, as I recall.

[Daveoc64]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

and MMS, with a simple definition?

A SMS is a SMS
A MMS is a MMS

There's no point in us or you trying to define it incorrectly. You have agreed to pay your network a certain amount for sending an MMS, and you have then used that service.

You can send an MMS that contains nothing other than a blank line - you're still going to be charged the same amount as any other MMS for that.

There are a variety of reasons for phones to send messages in certain ways. Some of which have been mentioned already (in particular, group messaging and sending long messages).

[MGS4SnakeRulez]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

So you would be charged for 2 sms messages etc.?

If it goes over 160 characters then yes. Even if it was 161 characters it would be 2 texts.

[omipalone]

I recently got a Galaxy S3 (on the One Plan on the 3 network) and didn't notice that the phone often converts long text messages (or a single short message sent to multiple contacts) to the MMS format and sends it as such.

It was only when I checked my account balance that I noticed over £4 of extra charges.

When I called customer service they told me it was for MMS messages even though they were text only messages. They said this was a function of the phone (never had this problem on my previous HTC Sensation) & I would be charged the cost of sending a MMS when this happened.

Apparently it cannot be turned off but a brief warning stating "converting to MMS" does appear but blink and you'd easily miss it.

Therefore I installed the "Whatsapp" app & use that instead for long texts or group texts.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by Daveoc64

A SMS is a SMS
A MMS is a MMS

There's no point in us or you trying to define it incorrectly. You have agreed to pay your network a certain amount for sending an MMS, and you have then used that service.

You can send an MMS that contains nothing other than a blank line - you're still going to be charged the same amount as any other MMS for that.

There are a variety of reasons for phones to send messages in certain ways. Some of which have been mentioned already (in particular, group messaging and sending long messages).

Who is trying to define it incorrectly? I asked for peoples' definition of the terms - as they understood them !

For the record, when you google "what does mms stand for", you get the following...

mms


Abbreviation

Multimedia Messaging Service, a system that enables cellular phones to send and receive pictures and sound clips as well as text messages.


Now, I would suggest, that to the lay-user of a mobile phone an SMS is a text message, and an MMS is a picture (video/sound recording) message.

So, when you send a wholly text message, either greater than 160 characters - or less than 160 characters but to a group of people - it could be considered a pretty safe bet that you are going to be charged for sending 1 or more text messages to a person (or 1 text message to each person in the group).

To be charged for sending an MMS message, when there was no multimedia content in the message is just plain wrong.

[MGS4SnakeRulez]

I had a Samsung Galaxy Ace 2 and the default SMS app would only send to 10 people at a time and convert a long SMS to an MMS. I installed Handcent SMS and it lets me send texts to 50 people at a time. I'm not sure if it converts very long SMS messages to MMS.

I now have an imported phone running Android ICS (4.0.4) with Handcent and can say it's the same as on my old Ace 2 so far.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by MGS4SnakeRulez

I had a Samsung Galaxy Ace 2 and the default SMS app would only send to 10 people at a time and convert a long SMS to an MMS. I installed Handcent SMS and it lets me send texts to 50 people at a time. I'm not sure if it converts very long SMS messages to MMS.

I now have an imported phone running Android ICS (4.0.4) with Handcent and can say it's the same as on my old Ace 2 so far.

It's good that you have managed to find a solution to this that works for you - I, sadly, do not have an Android or Iphone.

That notwithstanding, I still think that it is bordering on criminal deception that the service providers do this.

I checked online my service providers full terms and conditions - and the possibility that SMS messages maybe converted into MMS messages, and that you mayby charged accordingly, is knowhere to be found in those T&C's.

That, to me - in the circumstances I found myself, was a breach of contract by my service provider.

[Daveoc64]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

Multimedia Messaging Service, a system that enables cellular phones to send and receive pictures and sound clips as well as text messages

Why are you ignoring the bit in bold?

MMS messages are like emails.

They can contain text and have things attached to them - normally images or video clips.

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

That, to me - in the circumstances I found myself, was a breach of contract by my service provider.

Breach of what contract term?

It's not the network's responsibility to tell you how your phone works.

As the terms and conditions (for O2) state:

"You’re liable for all Charges incurred under this Agreement whether by you or anyone else using your SIM Card (with or without your knowledge). You must pay the Charges to us or anyone else we ask you to pay on our behalf."

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

To be charged for sending an MMS message, when there was no multimedia content in the message is just plain wrong.

Not at all.

The networks normally have a fixed cost for sending an MMS.

This works out well for consumers because it means that you can send anything you want (typically up to 600 kilobytes) for a flat fee.

Regardless of what you put in the message, you'll end up paying the same amount.

The network can't be expected to look at the message and establish if it could have been sent more cheaply via SMS. If your device sends an MMS, you should expect to pay for it.

In some circumstances, it's cheaper to send one MMS than it is to send multiple SMS - would you like your network to automatically assume you were sending a (more expensive) SMS in that case?

If it's not clear on your device that you're sending an MMS, you should complain to the manufacturer of that device.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by Daveoc64

Why are you ignoring the bit in bold?

MMS messages are like emails.

They can contain text and have things attached to them - normally images or video clips.



Breach of what contract term?

It's not the network's responsibility to tell you how your phone works.

As the terms and conditions (for O2) state:

"You’re liable for all Charges incurred under this Agreement whether by you or anyone else using your SIM Card (with or without your knowledge). You must pay the Charges to us or anyone else we ask you to pay on our behalf."



Not at all.

The networks normally have a fixed cost for sending an MMS.

This works out well for consumers because it means that you can send anything you want (typically up to 600 kilobytes) for a flat fee.

Regardless of what you put in the message, you'll end up paying the same amount.

The network can't be expected to look at the message and establish if it could have been sent more cheaply via SMS. If your device sends an MMS, you should expect to pay for it.

In some circumstances, it's cheaper to send one MMS than it is to send multiple MMS - would you like your network to automatically assume you were sending a (more expensive) SMS in that case?

If it's not clear on your device that you're sending an MMS, you should complain to the manufacturer of that device.

I wasn't ignoring the bit in bold at all - I have no problem in paying for an MMS message if I know that I have sent one....however...having not sent a message with images or video clips in it - I do not expect to be charged for anything other than a standard text message.

I would have thought that it would be ALWAYS cheaper to send one MMS than it is to send multiple MMS, but anyway..

I conceed that it would be impractical for any service provider to have an intimate working knowledge of every phone model that they offer - however by NOT making clear, and they don't, that text messages CAN be sent as multimedia messages in certain circumstances, is plain wrong.

If you asked your average joe in the street what he/she would expect to be charged for when they send a text message - I venture to suggest that you would get very few, if any, saying that you would be charged for a multimedia message.

Again, I venture that your average joe "knows" that, when they send a picture message - they are going to get charged for a picture message.

From what I can gather, this has come about as a result of the EU rulings on roaming and data charges.... - in that, beforehand, MMS messaging was "charged" at a rate of 4 text messages = 1 MMS message ratio (or a variant thereof by all service providers).

When the mobile companies were forced to reduce their charges, they saught to recoup some of that money by starting to charge for MMS.

Now, that is all well and good - and I have no problem at all with that (you send a picture message - we will charge you for it).

But sending a text message, in the format that is commonly accepted as a text message - but being charged for a picture message......no.

Anyhoo - after nigh on 80 minutes of too-ing and fro-ing - I got the outcome I was hoping for.

The reason for my posting was to gauge how many other "average joe" users were aware of this "issue" that's all.

[TheBigM]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

I wasn't ignoring the bit in bold at all - I have no problem in paying for an MMS message if I know that I have sent one....however...having not sent a message with images or video clips in it - I do not expect to be charged for anything other than a standard text message.

I would have thought that it would be ALWAYS

Well, you were wrong. And it was your phone that chose to convert to using an MMS, not the network.

It converted to using an MMS as the message size grew outside the spec for SMS, not the network's fault. My phone indicates the change when it does it.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by TheBigM

Well, you were wrong. And it was your phone that chose to convert to using an MMS, not the network.

It converted to using an MMS as the message size grew outside the spec for SMS, not the network's fault. My phone indicates the change when it does it.

How wonderful for you !

[kidspud]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

It's good that you have managed to find a solution to this that works for you - I, sadly, do not have an Android or Iphone.

That notwithstanding, I still think that it is bordering on criminal deception that the service providers do this.

I checked online my service providers full terms and conditions - and the possibility that SMS messages maybe converted into MMS messages, and that you mayby charged accordingly, is knowhere to be found in those T&C's.

That, to me - in the circumstances I found myself, was a breach of contract by my service provider.

It may not be your service provider, but the phone. I have a galaxy ace 2 and I raised this in the forum a few months ago. I sent a short message to a number of contacts and got charged for a number of mms. However, it is the phone that does it, not the service provider.

[Daveoc64]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

I conceed that it would be impractical for any service provider to have an intimate working knowledge of every phone model that they offer - however by NOT making clear, and they don't, that text messages CAN be sent as multimedia messages in certain circumstances, is plain wrong.

Why is it? Do you expect them to point out absolutely every potential pitfall that can happen to people? Not even Ofcom does that on its advice website.

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

If you asked your average joe in the street what he/she would expect to be charged for when they send a text message - I venture to suggest that you would get very few, if any, saying that you would be charged for a multimedia message.

Again, I venture that your average joe "knows" that, when they send a picture message - they are going to get charged for a picture message.

This may be true, but the charges are based on reality, not belief.

A lot of people don't understand how these things work. A lot of people think that phoning someone who is roaming abroad will cost them more.

A lot of people think that 0800 numbers are free to call from mobiles (although that's rarely the case).

A recent survey showed that most people in the UK don't think that being closer to a mobile phone mast gives you a better signal.

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

From what I can gather, this has come about as a result of the EU rulings on roaming and data charges.... - in that, beforehand, MMS messaging was "charged" at a rate of 4 text messages = 1 MMS message ratio (or a variant thereof by all service providers).

When the mobile companies were forced to reduce their charges, they saught to recoup some of that money by starting to charge for MMS.

That O2 policy was dumped far in advance of the decisions about roaming in the EEA.

You seem to be assuming that an O2 promotion was standard industry practice.

Originally Posted by Wobbly Steve

Now, that is all well and good - and I have no problem at all with that (you send a picture message - we will charge you for it).

But sending a text message, in the format that is commonly accepted as a text message - but being charged for a picture message......no.

It's not a "picture message" - there is no such thing. It's a MMS message. Every MMS is charged at the same rate on O2. As already covered, a MMS message can contain pictures, contacts, videos, audio clips as well as a LOT of text.

It's quite rare for phones to not make it clear when they are sending a MMS.

[Wobbly Steve]

Originally Posted by kidspud

It may not be your service provider, but the phone. I have a galaxy ace 2 and I raised this in the forum a few months ago. I sent a short message to a number of contacts and got charged for a number of mms. However, it is the phone that does it, not the service provider.

So it would seem, however - I first found out when I got my bill from my service provider - so I naturally phoned my phone manufacturer !!