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Old 21-12-2012, 13:19
rwebster
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She was remarkably restrained dealing with the complete mess Patrick was making of her chances tonight. She should have won on her ability to devise and run with a coherent theme - which no one else showed - and her business propoal where the two finalists offered nothing much to beat. Its unknowable whether she was left with the hopeless case of Patrick - making a loss inevitable - because of her earlier show story or chance. She should have beaten either of the girls on that final performance, or her proposal, if it hadn't gone with records. I suspect she will make more than any of them, and probably lose it a few times too.
I think she made her own luck, to an extent, though. If she doesn't agree with a candidate, she will belittle them, and raise her voice, and argue until they do things her way. It's not a "bubbly personality" as Lord Sugar puts it, it's a liability, because it makes people not want to run decisions by her. The reason he went behind her back was, I get the impression, because it was the only way he'd be able to make a decision. If he'd had a teammate he could trust to hear him out, if he had a teammate who hadn't already spent the entire day bulldozing their own ideas through, I think he'd have been more likely to run the choir thing past them, and discuss it. But he didn't. He had Maria.

They both fell on their own swords. Patrick made poor decisions that didn't pay off, just like he did in the first week with the wetsuit kimono, and their pitch was worse as a result. Maria forced her teammates out of the dialogue, just like she did in the second week and the third week, and so her co-PM just plain didn't include her when he wanted to make a decision.

Their loss wasn't one person's fault or the other. They could both have possibly thrived with other teammates, and I'm sure they'll end up doing well, but where a good team work to one other's strengths, Patrick and Maria just magnified each other's shortcomings. As I said, they'll both go on to do well, and I think they're both fantastically talented. Their presentation was still pretty good - but it wasn't good enough, not compared to Ashleigh and Lucy's, and that's because they were skewered by the exact mistakes they made in the first couple of weeks. Patrick can't really blame Maria and Maria can't really blame Patrick. They're both in this together.
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Old 21-12-2012, 16:10
StratusSphere
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The thing about Maria is though, she raised the issues. She said to Patrick to call and find out what age the choir was before making a decision on them and he ignored her. I think as well, due to track records that Maria and Ash had of being loud and bullish, the quieter Lucy and Patrick delliberately wanted to go against what they said even when it made sense.

Patrick was definitely the worst player on this task though - another example of a creative on this show just getting caught up in creating and doing something from their mind without actually thinking of how it relates to the task at hand. "Lets make cycling young and urban" is the brief and they recruit a middle-aged vocal choir to sing a medley of Lady Gaga in a shopping centre. To be honest I can';t think of ANY product that would help to sell!
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Old 21-12-2012, 16:56
george.millman
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The thing about Maria is though, she raised the issues. She said to Patrick to call and find out what age the choir was before making a decision on them and he ignored her. I think as well, due to track records that Maria and Ash had of being loud and bullish, the quieter Lucy and Patrick delliberately wanted to go against what they said even when it made sense.

Patrick was definitely the worst player on this task though - another example of a creative on this show just getting caught up in creating and doing something from their mind without actually thinking of how it relates to the task at hand. "Lets make cycling young and urban" is the brief and they recruit a middle-aged vocal choir to sing a medley of Lady Gaga in a shopping centre. To be honest I can';t think of ANY product that would help to sell!
In all fairness, Patrick told Maria that the choir was mixed ages, which presumably was what he had read. And from the look of it, they appeared to be mixed ages. There were some older and middle-aged women, but there also appeared to be some younger people. Although I didn't spot any guys, it appeared to be an all-female choir.
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Old 21-12-2012, 17:02
Parneb
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I was an Ash supporter through the series and was so glad she won.

Patrick was a plonker with little fashion style.
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Old 21-12-2012, 19:41
Blondie X
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Massive anti climax for me as I couldn't stand Ashleigh and think she's a dreadful winner. To have a chance of ever being a success in life, she needs to learn to shut up and listen, rwlise she's not always in the right and stop bulldozing over other people.

Poor end to a poor series imo
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Old 21-12-2012, 21:03
Pastificio
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I think Lucy had it in the bag until they started to discuss their Business Plans, she was very hesitant about what to spend the money on, putting herself through Uni. to study Law then maybe expanding her already profitable Cupcake business, it all seemed a bit vague, and, although I preferred her plan to Ashleigh's obviously LS saw less hesitance in Ashleigh, I agree though that she will have trouble starting a Property Company in the UK for 25 grand! and yes, just what the World needs now - more Accountants!!

Regarding the Final set up, I think if they have 4 Finalists, then they should work individually with so many returning contestants helping each one, instead of in teams of 2, it gives them all a chance to shine, without being bogged down with dross (yes, Patrick Im looking at you, NOT a fan of Maria, but she deserved better than Patrick) and it would be easy to follow, as they do more or less the same with the main and sub teams in the other tasks. just a suggestion.
The whole set-up of the final is wrong, imho. We should have had the losing team go through the 'one fired/one through', then the final three judged on their merit.

Why? Because Patrick lost the task for Maria, and she had no chance of redress - a bit harsh at the final hurdle.
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Old 21-12-2012, 22:05
martenla
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The whole set-up of the final is wrong, imho. We should have had the losing team go through the 'one fired/one through', then the final three judged on their merit.

Why? Because Patrick lost the task for Maria, and she had no chance of redress - a bit harsh at the final hurdle.
I reckon they would still have lost even if they hadn't used the choir - crappy logo (designed by Maria), flawed concept (targeting an expensive sport at a market with no money).
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Old 22-12-2012, 01:10
DavetheScot
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In all fairness, Patrick told Maria that the choir was mixed ages, which presumably was what he had read. And from the look of it, they appeared to be mixed ages. There were some older and middle-aged women, but there also appeared to be some younger people. Although I didn't spot any guys, it appeared to be an all-female choir.
It wasn't just the ages though, it was the song. It had nothing to do with their concept. Why didn't they do Queen's Bicycle Race as Stephen had suggested.
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Old 22-12-2012, 08:33
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Why? Because Patrick lost the task for Maria, and she had no chance of redress - a bit harsh at the final hurdle.
I expect Patrick and Maria were put together so that they could lose and Surallen would be left with Ashleigh and Lucy. The final task (before the interviews became the final, anyway) is always one where Surallen judges the result, rather than one that's won or lost on numbers, so that he can declare whoever he wants to be the winner.
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Old 22-12-2012, 10:04
lammtarra
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In the first series, Zoe and Kirsty lost because, unlike Tim and Arjun, they did not work as a team to develop a product around an agreed and coherent theme. Maria and Patrick repeated this mistake.

There is a tension in the Apprentice format between working as a team and as an individual. Indeed you can be fired for "hiding away" in "backroom tasks" so it can be hard to achieve the right balance but recently in this and the adult Apprentice, the pendulum has swung too far, and individualism has become foot-stamping, pouting and shouting down other ideas. Any toddlers behaving like Apprentice candidates would spend a long time on the naughty step.

Lucy and Ashleigh did agree on their line, did work as a team, but as individuals they had clearly demarcated responsibilities.

Patrick booked the choir not in spite of Maria's reservations but because of them.
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Old 22-12-2012, 11:50
TXF0429
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In the first series, Zoe and Kirsty lost because, unlike Tim and Arjun, they did not work as a team to develop a product around an agreed and coherent theme. Maria and Patrick repeated this mistake.
And also because Tim and Arjun's ideas were great! Seriously, their whole theme was one of the best ideas in any advertising task since The Apprentice began, in my opinion.

Patrick booked the choir not in spite of Maria's reservations but because of them.
Quite unfortunately, this is a danger with working with Maria. I think that Patrick only did it to show to LS that he could stand up to her. After the first two episodes, I thought that she would calm down more and go on a redemption arc, but she never really did. Its a shame she feels she has to act this way as she really does have some business skills. Ashleigh was similar, but she didn't argue with people for the sake of it and, largely, managed to avoid pissing people off when she did have her own ideas and this was probably why she won, especially as she took a lead on the first day in the final.
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Old 22-12-2012, 17:02
george.millman
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In the first series, Zoe and Kirsty lost because, unlike Tim and Arjun, they did not work as a team to develop a product around an agreed and coherent theme. Maria and Patrick repeated this mistake.

There is a tension in the Apprentice format between working as a team and as an individual. Indeed you can be fired for "hiding away" in "backroom tasks" so it can be hard to achieve the right balance but recently in this and the adult Apprentice, the pendulum has swung too far, and individualism has become foot-stamping, pouting and shouting down other ideas. Any toddlers behaving like Apprentice candidates would spend a long time on the naughty step.

Lucy and Ashleigh did agree on their line, did work as a team, but as individuals they had clearly demarcated responsibilities.

Patrick booked the choir not in spite of Maria's reservations but because of them.
One thing that always makes me sigh is when the candidates, and sometimes Lord Sugar, say, 'We're not here to make friends, this is business'. I think that is a huge failing. I think in order to do well on The Apprentice, it is important to get on with people. This does not mean favouring people unnecessarily on tasks, but if you're personable and friendly, people will enjoy working with you and are likely to be loyal to you. If I was a candidate, I would make an effort to talk to everyone and be liked by them.

If you do this, but can also assert your authority in the tasks, then you can't be accused of sitting back and not doing anything, but you also can't be accused of forcing your opinion on people. And it means people are less likely to bring you into the boardroom. There is something slightly manipulative about this, but I think that is the number one strategy actually.
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Old 23-12-2012, 02:58
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I was hoping Lucy would win. Ashleigh paints by numbers and doesn't really have anything extra. She doesn't seem creative at all and would never have thought to make the R seperate.

The moment where she says "stick to what we know" pretty much sums her up. You can argue that's a good idea, but it's also safe, boring and predictable.
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Old 23-12-2012, 05:02
thenetworkbabe
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And also because Tim and Arjun's ideas were great! Seriously, their whole theme was one of the best ideas in any advertising task since The Apprentice began, in my opinion.



Quite unfortunately, this is a danger with working with Maria. I think that Patrick only did it to show to LS that he could stand up to her. After the first two episodes, I thought that she would calm down more and go on a redemption arc, but she never really did. Its a shame she feels she has to act this way as she really does have some business skills. Ashleigh was similar, but she didn't argue with people for the sake of it and, largely, managed to avoid pissing people off when she did have her own ideas and this was probably why she won, especially as she took a lead on the first day in the final.
Patrick did it because he was immature and had no idea what he was doing. He couldn't understand a simple reasoned argument why a choir was a silly idea, and the naughty toddler within refused to backdown. Maria was perfectly right on her analysis of why it was a silly idea but after explaining it in the simplest terms possible, drew the right lesson that there was no point arguing with him. Cutting Patrick out of any important decision was the only option open to her, but the format didn't give her that power, and she was doomed from the moment Lord Sugar paired him with her. Ashleigh and Lucy were more similar, and could have a reasoned discussion with each other, and neither of them was likely to do something truly silly, so they could get on. They also had a wafflier concept so it was less important to get the specifics over. Lucy was also naturally inclined to let Ashleigh get on with it so Ashleigh didn't face any opposition.
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Old 23-12-2012, 05:24
thenetworkbabe
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One thing that always makes me sigh is when the candidates, and sometimes Lord Sugar, say, 'We're not here to make friends, this is business'. I think that is a huge failing. I think in order to do well on The Apprentice, it is important to get on with people. This does not mean favouring people unnecessarily on tasks, but if you're personable and friendly, people will enjoy working with you and are likely to be loyal to you. If I was a candidate, I would make an effort to talk to everyone and be liked by them.

If you do this, but can also assert your authority in the tasks, then you can't be accused of sitting back and not doing anything, but you also can't be accused of forcing your opinion on people. And it means people are less likely to bring you into the boardroom. There is something slightly manipulative about this, but I think that is the number one strategy actually.
This series they were mostly very friendly, and on twitter still are. Some series some seem not to like their winner, but its got more to do with thinking their mates should have won and not any weaknesses in the winner that showed on tasks. . The bright louder 2012 people seem to have got on very well with the quiet brighter people - who seem to have ignored what the editing was suggesting about who was difficult to work with. The problems both groups had were with the people who could be relied upon to waffle endlessly, make silly decisions and get everything wrong, and the arrogant/assertive male variants of that model. Those people are not going to be loyal to you -the format, and their nature, dictates they will try and blame anyone but themselves for their failures, and often never will understand them. They are a problem you have to find a way around, and if they are making decisions you have to find a way of shutting them down - as Ashleigh and Lucy finally manged to do with David - and as when the group refused David as a PM when they had a choice. Patrick remained as destructive with any power in the final as he had been in week one. If you don't have the power to shut them out or park them in a non crucial role, your PM can't do it, you can't gang up on them as a group, you are basically stuck with arguing with them, and, if that fails, them ruining your chances. Kendra in the US adult series solved a similar problem, by letting her two colleagues slope off and doing the whole thing herself, but even that wasn't possible in this final.
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Old 23-12-2012, 20:37
rwebster
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Patrick did it because he was immature and had no idea what he was doing. He couldn't understand a simple reasoned argument why a choir was a silly idea, and the naughty toddler within refused to backdown. Maria was perfectly right on her analysis of why it was a silly idea but after explaining it in the simplest terms possible, drew the right lesson that there was no point arguing with him.
The thing is, though, while she was absolutely right this time, Maria doesn't tend to exclusively reserve her blaring wall of noise for genuinely bad ideas. She had, throughout the competition, kicked off at quite a few ideas seemingly just because they weren't hers. When you've got a reputation for having the last say just because you want to have the last say, your complaints start to lose meaning. She had a reputation for digging her heels in simply because she wants to dig her heels in. Which is fine, and it's sometimes necessary, but it means when she's got a valid complaint - who cares? She's always like that, it means people take her with a pinch of salt. It means no-one's going to listen.

Maria made her own luck in the final. They both did. Because she communicates in the way she does, she's the sort of person nobody takes advice from. When she complains, it's not necessarily because an idea's bad - it's just as often been because she wants to get her way. The recipe book sticks out, in particular. Patrick and Maria both failed to address the weaknesses we saw in the first couple of weeks, and their presentation suffered for it. Talented kids, and they'll go far, but they were, sadly, the wrong people to win the competition. Patrick might have amplified it, but she lost because of who she was. But that's fine! She'll grow, and she'll learn, and she'll get past this. It's a great opportunity, it'll open doors, and hopefully this will be a stepping stone to even bigger and better things.

She really, desperately needs to learn how to express herself, though.
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Old 23-12-2012, 21:17
george.millman
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The thing is, though, while she was absolutely right this time, Maria doesn't tend to exclusively reserve her blaring wall of noise for genuinely bad ideas. She had, throughout the competition, kicked off at quite a few ideas seemingly just because they weren't hers. When you've got a reputation for having the last say just because you want to have the last say, your complaints start to lose meaning. She had a reputation for digging her heels in simply because she wants to dig her heels in. Which is fine, and it's sometimes necessary, but it means when she's got a valid complaint - who cares? She's always like that, it means people take her with a pinch of salt. It means no-one's going to listen.

Maria made her own luck in the final. They both did. Because she communicates in the way she does, she's the sort of person nobody takes advice from. When she complains, it's not necessarily because an idea's bad - it's just as often been because she wants to get her way. The recipe book sticks out, in particular. Patrick and Maria both failed to address the weaknesses we saw in the first couple of weeks, and their presentation suffered for it. Talented kids, and they'll go far, but they were, sadly, the wrong people to win the competition. Patrick might have amplified it, but she lost because of who she was. But that's fine! She'll grow, and she'll learn, and she'll get past this. It's a great opportunity, it'll open doors, and hopefully this will be a stepping stone to even bigger and better things.

She really, desperately needs to learn how to express herself, though.
I think it does make a difference that they're not actually teams, they're in it for themselves. When you're working to show yourself in a good light and you have an idea that you think is good, you are going to want your idea used ahead of other, just-as-good ideas, because you want to stand out as having the winning idea.

I'm guilty of it myself. When I was doing A-level drama and we were creating our devised piece, my teammates found me quite hard to work with, because I was very vocal about ideas that I wanted to keep. It wasn't the best way of creating a good theatre piece, but I was thinking about my own mark and I thought there was an element of selfishness that was needed. I wasn't quite as unbearable as Maria (I hope!), but there were occasions that I do think I could have handled myself in a more diplomatic manner. It's not how I behave when I'm actually working on a real show, then I think solely about what will make our show great. I wonder what Maria would be like in a real, genuine team? I think she'd be a lot easier to work with.
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Old 24-12-2012, 00:42
thenetworkbabe
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The thing is, though, while she was absolutely right this time, Maria doesn't tend to exclusively reserve her blaring wall of noise for genuinely bad ideas. She had, throughout the competition, kicked off at quite a few ideas seemingly just because they weren't hers. When you've got a reputation for having the last say just because you want to have the last say, your complaints start to lose meaning. She had a reputation for digging her heels in simply because she wants to dig her heels in. Which is fine, and it's sometimes necessary, but it means when she's got a valid complaint - who cares? She's always like that, it means people take her with a pinch of salt. It means no-one's going to listen.

Maria made her own luck in the final. They both did. Because she communicates in the way she does, she's the sort of person nobody takes advice from. When she complains, it's not necessarily because an idea's bad - it's just as often been because she wants to get her way. The recipe book sticks out, in particular. Patrick and Maria both failed to address the weaknesses we saw in the first couple of weeks, and their presentation suffered for it. Talented kids, and they'll go far, but they were, sadly, the wrong people to win the competition. Patrick might have amplified it, but she lost because of who she was. But that's fine! She'll grow, and she'll learn, and she'll get past this. It's a great opportunity, it'll open doors, and hopefully this will be a stepping stone to even bigger and better things.

She really, desperately needs to learn how to express herself, though.
That might be true in most outside circumstances, but I don't think it applies here. She didn't have any difficulty in the final with her team. Indeed she seems closest to some of the people on the show who wewre shown as least like her except in academic terms.http://twitter.com/LucyBeauvallet/st...461184/photo/1 Her problem was that she had an impasse with her co-PM. Her past , didn't stop her working with the others, or them doing as she wanted, or offering ideas. It wasn't a democracy, where she could get their votes to over-rule Patrick - or a situation where anyone thought Patrick made any sense. If Patrick had been on the other team, Ashleigh would have either gone down with him or been even tougher on him, Lucy would have lost too. Basically, she had a complete dud as her co-PM, and no way of stopping him doing something really really silly.
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Old 24-12-2012, 02:01
george.millman
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That might be true in most outside circumstances, but I don't think it applies here. She didn't have any difficulty in the final with her team. Indeed she seems closest to some of the people on the show who wewre shown as least like her except in academic terms.http://twitter.com/LucyBeauvallet/st...461184/photo/1 Her problem was that she had an impasse with her co-PM. Her past , didn't stop her working with the others, or them doing as she wanted, or offering ideas. It wasn't a democracy, where she could get their votes to over-rule Patrick - or a situation where anyone thought Patrick made any sense. If Patrick had been on the other team, Ashleigh would have either gone down with him or been even tougher on him, Lucy would have lost too. Basically, she had a complete dud as her co-PM, and no way of stopping him doing something really really silly.
But she was forcing her decisions through at the start. Nick said that while they were joint PM, Maria was the one who was really in charge. So you can see why Patrick felt the need to go over her head, because otherwise none of his ideas would have counted.

Look at Patrick's viewpoint:
Choice 1: Force through the choir. If this is the right choice, we win the task. I have more of a chance of winning, because I made the winning decision. If it's the wrong decision, we lose, neither of us win.
Choice 2: Listen to Maria. If this is the right choice, we win the task. Maria has more of a chance of winning, because she didn't want the choir. If this is the wrong decision, we lose, neither of us win.

Therefore, the only way Patrick could expect to win would be if he went for the choir, and it worked out for him.
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Old 24-12-2012, 02:39
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But she was forcing her decisions through at the start. Nick said that while they were joint PM, Maria was the one who was really in charge. So you can see why Patrick felt the need to go over her head, because otherwise none of his ideas would have counted.

Look at Patrick's viewpoint:
Choice 1: Force through the choir. If this is the right choice, we win the task. I have more of a chance of winning, because I made the winning decision. If it's the wrong decision, we lose, neither of us win.
Choice 2: Listen to Maria. If this is the right choice, we win the task. Maria has more of a chance of winning, because she didn't want the choir. If this is the wrong decision, we lose, neither of us win.

Therefore, the only way Patrick could expect to win would be if he went for the choir, and it worked out for him.
True...but there could also be choice #3, go for something else that made more sense than the choir but wasnt necessarily the thing that Maria championed or even DISCUSS with Maria and the other team members perhaps (Nav was a good mediator) what a good choice overall would be.

I think it was clear in this task though that Patrick got the wrong end of the stick as to what the main goal in the task was - he heard 'stand out and that people will want to pass on' and so went for something involving and funny, a spectacle, and completely overlooked the fact it actually had to sell the product rather than just illustrate it. This was the biggest flaw and the argument over the choir was really Patrick's misunderstanding of the main requirement of the task and, I suspect, Maria not realising this and getting cross with him for being deliberately obstructive, as she would have seen it.
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Old 24-12-2012, 02:52
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But she was forcing her decisions through at the start. Nick said that while they were joint PM, Maria was the one who was really in charge. So you can see why Patrick felt the need to go over her head, because otherwise none of his ideas would have counted.

Look at Patrick's viewpoint:
Choice 1: Force through the choir. If this is the right choice, we win the task. I have more of a chance of winning, because I made the winning decision. If it's the wrong decision, we lose, neither of us win.
Choice 2: Listen to Maria. If this is the right choice, we win the task. Maria has more of a chance of winning, because she didn't want the choir. If this is the wrong decision, we lose, neither of us win.

Therefore, the only way Patrick could expect to win would be if he went for the choir, and it worked out for him.
Thats a good point if Patrick thought tactically. And his decision making is clouded by the fact that he can't see whats wrong with his ideas. However strategically, its even sillier than Hitler invading Russia to beat Britain - because its putting all his eggs into a silly plan, and hoping the silly plan is a winning one. Like his week one swimsuit escapade, his idea was utterly terrible. It meant that they couldn't get to stage one - of winning over the other team , and he therefore had no hope of beating Maria at stage two anyway.

Its a very interesting way of looking at it though. Its game theory with a player with a decidely suspect calculation of the risks. The better approach would be to see your own idea's obvious weakness, and hunker down and just do some thing well, while hoping Maria had less to offer or made some mistakes in the final boardroom. However, he needs to be able to tell a dud idea to think that, and if he thinks Maria is stronger, trying a high risk strategy, as you say, may look better to him than effectively conceeding.

The problem is Maria has no way of dealing with that - apart from locking him in a cupboard - as he's going to push his silly idea even more if its his path to a win. Indeed, the more confident and less flawed she looks, the happier the team is, and the better her concept is, the more Patrick has to push any idea he has?
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Old 24-12-2012, 03:05
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True...but there could also be choice #3, go for something else that made more sense than the choir but wasnt necessarily the thing that Maria championed or even DISCUSS with Maria and the other team members perhaps (Nav was a good mediator) what a good choice overall would be.

I think it was clear in this task though that Patrick got the wrong end of the stick as to what the main goal in the task was - he heard 'stand out and that people will want to pass on' and so went for something involving and funny, a spectacle, and completely overlooked the fact it actually had to sell the product rather than just illustrate it. This was the biggest flaw and the argument over the choir was really Patrick's misunderstanding of the main requirement of the task and, I suspect, Maria not realising this and getting cross with him for being deliberately obstructive, as she would have seen it.
I agree he has no idea of what he's doing or the concept they are aiming for. But he also had no idea of what would be spectacular and stand out - that people would want to watch. Just as he had no idea in week one who would want to wear anything like his swimsuit creation. A singing, sedate, flashmob was hardly something that would stand out unless it was brilliant. Its been done to death, A mob of ladies singing wouldn't register at all. And pictures of middle aged and older ladies, singing something completely unrelated, was totally unrelated to cycling, cycle wear or the target market. He didn't even think of a comic spin on it , and might as well have videoed paint drying.

I don't think Maria and the others could have made what should have been obvious clearer. What he was proposing was going to be both dull and irrelevant. He wasn't capable of realising either problem.
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Old 26-12-2012, 13:45
Tommo781
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Yeah!!!!!!!! Excellent result. Maria didn't win. What a brilliant Xmas present.
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