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Old 31-12-2012, 21:57
Mulett
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Just wondering about the upcoming anniversary year, and the fact that twice now we've had the 4th wall broken - once by Oswin in Asylum and once by the Doctor in Snowmen.

What if this is more than just a direction technique and suggests something about the special - that Clara's from our reality and has somehow ended up in the Doctor's universe?
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Old 01-01-2013, 00:59
Verence
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Just wondering about the upcoming anniversary year, and the fact that twice now we've had the 4th wall broken - once by Oswin in Asylum and once by the Doctor in Snowmen.

What if this is more than just a direction technique and suggests something about the special - that Clara's from our reality and has somehow ended up in the Doctor's universe?
Can't remember that
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:07
JCR
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Can't remember that
Oswin looked at the camera for her final line: "And remember."

Dunno if there was one in the Snowmen. Maybe Mulett is thinking of The Feast of Steven.

In 2005 people thought they were using a play within a play device because of the shot of the camera shaking in The End of the World, that was a homage to The Web Planet.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:11
Verence
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Oswin looked at the camera for her final line: "And remember."

Dunno if there was one in the Snowmen. Maybe Mulett is thinking of The Feast of Steven.

In 2005 people thought they were using a play within a play device because of the shot of the camera shaking in The End of the World, that was a homage to The Web Planet.
Thanks
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:54
Deserana 12
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The very last shot of The Snowmen (ar at least the Doctor in the episode) is breaking the fourth wall.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:16
Jerrica09
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"Watch me run!" I'm glad they both did it, nice symmetry.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:25
Batmannequin
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As much as I have f***ing loved the current run (this season is probably the strongest so far since thirteen or fourteen IMO), I am getting a bit worried about this fourth wall stuff. Dorium inadvertantly mentioning the opening titles last season ("hidden in plain sight"), coupled with Clara/Oswin looking directly at the camera, her birthday being November 23rd and The Doctor not being sure he remembers The Greast Intelligence [because the episodes are lost?] has me a little concerned about the risk of things getting a bit meta and weird for the 50th.

It's almost certsinluy me adding 2 and 2 to make 50, but...
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:35
the dourfla
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didn't the doctor forget something else in this episode, think it might have been about the bow tie.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:44
Karis
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The issue is that it's a TV show and that was done for dramatic effect, and it was quite impacty

I don't have any issue with it at all. In fact, I quite liked it. Exciting.com
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:24
TheSilentFez
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Are you sure they aren't just looking into the camera and thinking something aloud? They aren't necessarily breaking the fourth wall because they aren't necessarily talking to the audience.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:42
fastest finger
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Just had a quick search online and found that it seems Doctor Who has a long history of breaking the Fourth Wall. Breaking the fourth wall doesn't just involve looking into the camera, it's any instance of the character / story acknowledging that they are fictional.

Part 7 of the First Doctor story The Daleks' Master Plan, titled "The Feast of Steven", featured The Doctor turning to the camera and wishing the viewers a Merry Christmas.

An advert featuring The Second Doctor had him advising children to "hold mummy's hand if she's frightened" during an upcoming episode. It ended with him hearing shouting off-camera and rushing off to help.

The Fourth Doctor spoke to the camera in The Invasion of Time and The Face of Evil. And in the Fourth Doctor story Genesis of the Daleks, a Dalek shouts into the camera about how its species will conquer the universe.

The Armageddon Factor has an unabashed fourth wall-breaking moment where the Doctor says right to the camera, "Even the sonic screwdriver won't get me out of this one."

In the Eighth Doctor Made-for-TV Movie, Grace shoots an Aside Glance at the camera after the Doctor acts confusing.

In the Ninth Doctor story "The End of the World", one of the (CGI-animated) spiders "accidentally" collides with the camera.

A special 2005 interactive episode available to digital TV viewers had the Tenth Doctor inviting the viewer aboard the TARDIS to help solve a mystery using their remote controls. The episode was shot from the viewer's POV, with The Doctor talking into camera, though this "episode" is generally not considered canon.

In "The Shakespeare Code", a baddie speaks to the camera about how her species will return - this is reference to the soliloquies that Shakespeare used in his plays. From the same episode, when Shakespeare gets a bit flirty with the Doctor, the Doctor remarks, "57 academics just punched the air."

In the Classic episode The Caves of Androzani, the villain repeatedly turns to the camera and gives exposition soliloquies. Word Of God says that this wasn't intended - the actor had misunderstood the stage directions in the script, but the director liked the effect it gave and had the actor continue doing the scenes in that manner.

This is the whole point of the Proms special short "Music of the Spheres".

"Journey's End" includes a widely debated moment where Martha Jones appears to smile directly into the camera, though the context of the scene strongly implies that this is the point of view of the Doctor not the audience.

In "The Big Bang" when The Doctor is flying the Pandorica into the exploding TARDIS, for a moment Matt Smith looks right down the camera lens.

At the very end of "Blink", the Doctor looks directly at the camera and tells the audience his video warning to Sally Sparrow: "Don't blink. Blink and you're dead. Don't turn your back. Don't look away. And don't blink. Good Luck." The effect can cause the viewer to never go near a statue again.
This episode also breaks the fourth wall in a way that will manage to terrify the viewers even more. There are times when the Weeping Angels are on screen but none of the characters are looking at them. You, the audience, are looking at them. (Consider the scene in which the Angels move only when Sally blocks our view of them.)

The Poison Sky has the Doctor realize that without the TARDIS, he's stuck on Earth as a human. Then call it rubbish. Then apologize to the camera.

The 2011 Children in Need scene has Matt Smith shattering the fourth wall into pieces.

In Asylum of the Daleks, Oswin, in her last moment on screen, looks directly at the camera.

I haven't seen all of these examples, and you may disagree with some of them, just quoting what I've read.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:50
Elphie_Lives
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Are you sure they aren't just looking into the camera and thinking something aloud? They aren't necessarily breaking the fourth wall because they aren't necessarily talking to the audience.
I would say in Asylum, Oswin was definitely breaking the fourth wall.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:57
GDK
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I think all of these "asides to camera" can be construed as either "internal dialogue" i.e. what the character is thinking at that moment, or the camera is taking another character's PoV. It's not something your average TV viewer is very familiar with, but it's not uncommon in theatre.

It's not "breaking the fourth wall" in my view.

Promotional material does not count as it does not form part of the narrative.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:57
tomwozhere
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But surely just looking into the camera and looking into the camera and speaking isn't breaking the fourth wall. Doesn't it have to be an interaction with the audience? Like in The Pandorica Opens when he looks down the lense, would that actually be breaking the fourth wall? When Oswin said "Remember Me" then looked to the camera, obviously it was a message to the doctor but it also was telling the audience to remember, it was an interaction.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:23
TRT1968
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And used in the best thing I've seen on TV this Christmas, a My Family Christmas special set partially in the future where Zoe Wanamaker claims she hasn't aged because she moisturises *wink*.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:29
daveyboy7472
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I think all of these "asides to camera" can be construed as either "internal dialogue" i.e. what the character is thinking at that moment, or the camera is taking another character's PoV. It's not something your average TV viewer is very familiar with, but it's not uncommon in theatre.

It's not "breaking the fourth wall" in my view.

Promotional material does not count as it does not form part of the narrative.
I think it's open to interpretation. William Hartnell did blatantly break the 4th wall during the Xmas episode of The Daleks Masterplan to wish everyone a Happy Xmas. On the other hand there were many times Tom Baker would look into the camera and say his dialogue as if thinking out loud, but I never believed that was breaking the 4th wall. Just us as viewers connecting with what he was thinking.

As for JLC, I think that probably was breaking the 4th wall, it was like a cheeky nod to the viewer that we'd see her again and give us a clue about her storyline at the same time.

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Old 01-01-2013, 12:49
CoalHillJanitor
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I think it's open to interpretation. William Hartnell did blatantly break the 4th wall during the Xmas episode of The Daleks Masterplan to wish everyone a Happy Xmas.

I'm so glad he did. Suits his impertinent nature.
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Old 01-01-2013, 14:41
Paradise_Lost
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Are you sure they aren't just looking into the camera and thinking something aloud? They aren't necessarily breaking the fourth wall because they aren't necessarily talking to the audience.

Don't be a silly goose.

http://i.imgur.com/8aCrN.jpg

But ... but ... she was looking at me! Me!
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Old 01-01-2013, 16:05
bgtension
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And used in the best thing I've seen on TV this Christmas, a My Family Christmas special set partially in the future where Zoe Wanamaker claims she hasn't aged because she moisturises *wink*.
Have you a link to this?
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Old 01-01-2013, 21:53
Helbore
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Looking at the camera doesn't mean you are breaking the fourth wall. Even if it is a stylistic choice by the director to create a certain effect, it isn't breaking the fourth wall unless the character is clearly showing a knowledge that they are in a work of fiction. They don't even need to be acknowledging the audience. Marvel character "Deadpool" was famous for constantly breaking the fourth wall, but often it was when talking to other characters within the comic (eg. telling another character that they last met in issue 12).

Unless they start showing a knowledge that they are in a television show and that when they look at the camera, they know they are looking at a TV camera that is filming them, then they aren't breaking the fourth wall. But even then, they still need to be aware of their own fictional status. For instance, characters in "The Office," aren't breaking the fourth wall when they talk to the cameras or play up for the audience, because their "in-universe" fictional existence involves having a documentary crew filming them.
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Old 02-01-2013, 22:50
TRT1968
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Old 02-01-2013, 23:36
kyllerbuzcut
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I agree with those who say that it isn't necessarily breaking the 4th wall. A lot of the instances mentioned are just ways of telling the story, or simply where the camera is at. It's got to be somewhere, otherwise we can't see what's going on. What might break the 4th wall then is the characters knowledge they are being filmed by NOT looking at the camera. The example of Oswin looking at the camera. I put that down to her talking to the nanobots, as she directs them to enter the doctors head (my little theory there. She was controlling the hive give mind thingy remember, so turning her head and speaking might be her wast of interacting, and sending messages through it) or the camera simply being where she would look into some viewscreen, the camera just happened to be there. But of course, to the character, it wasn't there was it? So she did what she would normally do.which is to look at the viewscreen and'talk'to it. (everyone says something to their TV now and then).

Of course there are some instances where you could say the 4th wall was definitely broken.the William Hartnell Christmas thing for one. You could make a case that it was not part of the story maybe? Like a "time out" or something.

It might turn out that it is happening here, but I would be surprised.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:03
Corabal
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No one has yet to mention the scene with Dorium's head. "Doctor Who?, Doctor Who?, Doctor WHO?!" Then 11 looks at the camera.
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