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Mr Selfridge Starts Sunday 9pm ITV1


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Old 23-01-2013, 13:41
myss
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Don't you see a similarity between the showgirl ( Miss Love ?) and Kiera Knightly ??
Keira's too skinny to compare!

Sorry - I missed your post!
No worries!!
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Old 23-01-2013, 13:43
Alexis07
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Keira's too skinny to compare!

No worries!!
Sorry , I meant facially .


Flick between the two pages below and then try and tell the difference

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=zoe...w=1024&bih=644

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kei...w=1024&bih=644
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Old 23-01-2013, 13:44
ilovewallander
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Don't you see a similarity between the showgirl ( Miss Love ?) and Kiera Knightly ??
Yes I said that a few pages back. It's the same annoying pout, I can't stand it!
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Old 23-01-2013, 14:10
Nihonga
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Interesting views on this drama.

I didn't want to comment until I'd watched all the whole thing. But at what 7 episodes to go, and with me losing some interest in it, I might as well as give my penny's worth.

I watched The Paradise and I did love that series. Admittedly, I thought I would be bored by it so didn't watch the 1st or 2nd episode. Watched halfway through the 3rd episode and thought it was ok. Watched the first two episodes and then rest and I loved it a lot.

I don't want to compare the two dramas - Mr Selfridge and [i]The Paradise - and say that one is better than the other. They have two different ways of expressing similiar themes and exploring the similar issues: the rise of the department stores; high quality but affordable shopping; the working lives of the working classes, particularly the women; new moneyed middle-classes, and their economic and social effects, etc. Also, they are set in completely different settings: Mr Selfridges in a metropolitan city, and The Paradise in a provincial town. And so in many ways both dramas are telling a familiar story set in different times and different settings. So what each drama tells the audience, and how it tells it, will different for each drama. The question for me it is whether they each told their own story is the most engaging way possible. And at the moment I don't think Mr Selfridge is doing a good job.

Firstly, I keep feeling that the whole look of the Selfridge store is somewhat anchronistic. With its marble fittings, I almost feel it ought to be set in the 1920s. But then what do I know about Edwardian/Pre-war decor!

Secondly, Mr Selfridge himself. There is this incidental music they play to indicate his presence in the story. It sounds comical - a bit like the kind of "bumbling" music the Superman films in the 70s played for Lex Luthor's entrance on the screen.

It annoys/irritates me a little because all it does is to highlight Piven's over-exuberant performance. I can buy the idea of Piven's performance conveying an American who is bold and ambitious in his plans, grand in his gestures, loud, overly expressive and jubilant. But the problem with all that is when it comes to moments where Piven has show Selfridge's self-doubt or uncertainties or when he feels that Ellen Love is becoming a little to difficult to handle, and is quite deep in and over his head.

The change to show these two Mr Selfridges is neither subtle nor that much naunced. Yes, I understand that a man like Selfridge would stand out as a more animated man than his European counterparts. But given the mood at the time - polite, reserved, thoughtful 1900/1910s - I don't think he would be so animated to be completely alien to that period. I'd have thought that Mr Selfridge would be a more animated version of the 1900/1910s European man (even the Edwardian man), and not just being animated for the sake of it. After all, he only got the idea to set up a department while he was on holiday in Europe, comparing what English departments stores did not have with American ones. He had to look for investors in his plans, which means that even though he was so exuberant in his ways, he would've to temper his behaviour and mannerisms somewhat if he didn't want to put off his more reserved and cautious English aristocratic partners who baulk at these 'vulgar' new moneyed American middle-classes.

And then there is Ellen Love, who I would love to slap more often than not. Because of Piven's not-so-good performance as Mr Selfridge, the Ellen Love character gets away so much. As this spoilt, rude, self-indulgent woman-child, she deserves a slap and be put in her place; Piven's Mr Selfridge knows this, but Piven's performance is unable to deliver what the audience and his character know should be done where Love's character is concerned. Instead, it's left to Mr Leclair to do what the audience wants to see, and Fitoussi does a really excellent job with Mr Leclair with the nuanced subtly that Piven's Mr Selfridge lacks.

I shall stop there or else I'll go on and on and bore myself and this thread. I'll still watch because so far Mr Selfridge is just about OK, not good or great, just alright. I would say though that Katherine Kelly really made Lady Mae shine through in this 3rd episode as did Gregory Fitoussi with Mr Leclair. Neither of these two actors get much screentime compared to Piven, but when they do they make so much of the little time they have, and wonderfully so. Maybe the fact that Piven is also a producer doesn't give him much time to think about the kind of performance he ought to give.
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Old 25-01-2013, 12:27
MoreTears
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It annoys/irritates me a little because all it does is to highlight Piven's over-exuberant performance. I can buy the idea of Piven's performance conveying an American who is bold and ambitious in his plans, grand in his gestures, loud, overly expressive and jubilant. But the problem with all that is when it comes to moments where Piven has show Selfridge's self-doubt or uncertainties or when he feels that Ellen Love is becoming a little to difficult to handle, and is quite deep in and over his head.

The change to show these two Mr Selfridges is neither subtle nor that much naunced. Yes, I understand that a man like Selfridge would stand out as a more animated man than his European counterparts. But given the mood at the time - polite, reserved, thoughtful 1900/1910s - I don't think he would be so animated to be completely alien to that period. I'd have thought that Mr Selfridge would be a more animated version of the 1900/1910s European man (even the Edwardian man), and not just being animated for the sake of it. After all, he only got the idea to set up a department while he was on holiday in Europe, comparing what English departments stores did not have with American ones. He had to look for investors in his plans, which means that even though he was so exuberant in his ways, he would've to temper his behaviour and mannerisms somewhat if he didn't want to put off his more reserved and cautious English aristocratic partners who baulk at these 'vulgar' new moneyed American middle-classes.

And then there is Ellen Love, who I would love to slap more often than not. Because of Piven's not-so-good performance as Mr Selfridge, the Ellen Love character gets away so much. As this spoilt, rude, self-indulgent woman-child, she deserves a slap and be put in her place; Piven's Mr Selfridge knows this, but Piven's performance is unable to deliver what the audience and his character know should be done where Love's character is concerned. Instead, it's left to Mr Leclair to do what the audience wants to see, and Fitoussi does a really excellent job with Mr Leclair with the nuanced subtly that Piven's Mr Selfridge lacks.

I shall stop there or else I'll go on and on and bore myself and this thread. I'll still watch because so far Mr Selfridge is just about OK, not good or great, just alright. I would say though that Katherine Kelly really made Lady Mae shine through in this 3rd episode as did Gregory Fitoussi with Mr Leclair. Neither of these two actors get much screentime compared to Piven, but when they do they make so much of the little time they have, and wonderfully so. Maybe the fact that Piven is also a producer doesn't give him much time to think about the kind of performance he ought to give.
You are judging Piven's performance without asking yourself how accurate it is in capturing what Harry Gordon Selfridge was really like. You SPECULATE above that Selfridge would have been restrained to fit in with the English -- but history tells us that is wrong. Selfridge was loud, bold and brash in all of his dealings with the English, which means Piven is playing the man the way he is supposed to be played. It is not Piven's fault that the real Selfridge is someone you apparently would have found off-putting.

And if I may comment on the trend I am seeing, especially among female viewers, of expressing a preference for The Paradise over Mr Selfridge, let us be honest why that is, really. British people, and particularly British women, were always going to find it a lot easier identifying with Denise the shop girl from a modest background (The Paradise's central character, through whose eyes we see the action) than they were going to identify with the rich American businessman who came to Britain to teach the British how to run a department store properly and make himself richer than he already was while doing so. Add in that he cheats on his perfectly nice wife with a woman who wouldn't look at him twice if he didn't have money, and it is not hard to imagine why much of the audience would rather root against the show's main character, not for him. Still, I find I am enjoying Mr Selfridge about as much as I did The Paradise. I don't think it is a bad thing to have the main character of at least one of two similarly-themed shows be someone who is deeply flawed and maybe more of an anti-hero than a hero.
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Old 25-01-2013, 12:54
Servalan
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You are judging Piven's performance without asking yourself how accurate it is in capturing what Harry Gordon Selfridge was really like. You SPECULATE above that Selfridge would have been restrained to fit in with the English -- but history tells us that is wrong. Selfridge was loud, bold and brash in all of his dealings with the English, which means Piven is playing the man the way he is supposed to be played. It is not Piven's fault that the real Selfridge is someone you apparently would have found off-putting.

And if I may comment on the trend I am seeing, especially among female viewers, of expressing a preference for The Paradise over Mr Selfridge, let us be honest why that is, really. British people, and particularly British women, were always going to find it a lot easier identifying with Denise the shop girl from a modest background (The Paradise's central character, through whose eyes we see the action) than they were going to identify with the rich American businessman who came to Britain to teach the British how to run a department store properly and make himself richer than he already was while doing so. Add in that he cheats on his perfectly nice wife with a woman who wouldn't look at him twice if he didn't have money, and it is not hard to imagine why much of the audience would rather root against the show's main character, not for him. Still, I find I am enjoying Mr Selfridge about as much as I did The Paradise. I don't think it is a bad thing to have the main character of at least one of two similarly-themed shows be someone who is deeply flawed and maybe more of an anti-hero than a hero.
I'm sure Selfridge may well have been bold and brash, Unfortunately, this is a drama, not a documentary, and the writing does that character no favours, while Piven's portrayal compounds matters by lacking depth and bordering on parody with his permanently waving arms.

I am all for having a central character who is deeply flawed and may be more of an anti-hero - an example of that being done brilliantly would be Mad Men. But that is a show on a US cable network. Mr Selfridge airs on ITV - a mainstream channel - and it needs a central character with heart that the audience can care about. Yes, that character may be flawed, but it should also possess qualities that redeem it - and, in the case of Selfridge, it's hard to fathom what those are: he's vain, self-obsessed and deceitful. Whether or not he makes the shop a success isn't a story, because we all know he does - so detail about putting a plane in the store to attract punters is little more than a bit of backdrop in a period soap about who's bedding who.

I am both mystified and disappointed that ITV deliberately (and cynically) aged Selfridge down for the purposes of this series, and also diminished his wife so she comes across as little more than an insecure shrew. Both smack of wasted opportunities driven by ageism and laziness.
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Old 25-01-2013, 13:27
Capablanca
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I've only seen the first two episodes (recording the series as it clashes with Ripper Street) and the wife and I thought that Selfridge had been based on Gene Wilder's portrayal of Willy Wonker. I keep expecting him to burst into: 'Come with me, if you please, to a world of pure imagination'.
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Old 25-01-2013, 14:34
Dawn Sun
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I've only seen the first two episodes (recording the series as it clashes with Ripper Street) and the wife and I thought that Selfridge had been based on Gene Wilder's portrayal of Willy Wonker. I keep expecting him to burst into: 'Come with me, if you please, to a world of pure imagination'.
Great. Thanks for that image! Will be expecting that from now on....
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Old 25-01-2013, 15:11
Nihonga
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You are judging Piven's performance without asking yourself how accurate it is in capturing what Harry Gordon Selfridge was really like. You SPECULATE above that Selfridge would have been restrained to fit in with the English -- but history tells us that is wrong. Selfridge was loud, bold and brash in all of his dealings with the English, which means Piven is playing the man the way he is supposed to be played. It is not Piven's fault that the real Selfridge is someone you apparently would have found off-putting.

And if I may comment on the trend I am seeing, especially among female viewers, of expressing a preference for The Paradise over Mr Selfridge, let us be honest why that is, really. British people, and particularly British women, were always going to find it a lot easier identifying with Denise the shop girl from a modest background (The Paradise's central character, through whose eyes we see the action) than they were going to identify with the rich American businessman who came to Britain to teach the British how to run a department store properly and make himself richer than he already was while doing so. Add in that he cheats on his perfectly nice wife with a woman who wouldn't look at him twice if he didn't have money, and it is not hard to imagine why much of the audience would rather root against the show's main character, not for him. Still, I find I am enjoying Mr Selfridge about as much as I did The Paradise. I don't think it is a bad thing to have the main character of at least one of two similarly-themed shows be someone who is deeply flawed and maybe more of an anti-hero than a hero.
Thanks for replying to my post. It was a long one. I'm glad you're enjoying Mr Selfridge. I'll keep watching because it doesn't bore me and I'm hoping it will get better as it goes on.

I see what you're saying. But I can't ask myself if the protrayal is accurate because it is a drama we're watching, even an adaptation of an account of Mr Selfridge written by a C21st author. I don't even know if the book from which the adaptation takes its material comes anywhere near what the real Mr Selfridge was really like. It's not like it is a first-hand account of the people who lived during Mr Selfridge's time with face-to-face interviews and so on. It's not even an autobiography. I haven't read the book, nor am I likely to. So we are not ever going to know how accurate Mr Selfridge is being protrayed.

All I can do, therefore, is analyse how good an adaptation of the Selfridge story the drama is. For example, is the adaptation in showing me what Mr Selfridge was like. That's why I said that it wouldn't be fair to compare The Paradise to Mr Selfridge. They are two completely different textual forms.

Like Servalan, I'm all for a male character who is an anti-hero and deeply flawed. In fact, sometimes those kind of characters make for better and interesting viewing, Don Draper being a case in point. Indeed, I do understand and buy into the idea of Mr Selfridge being this loud, brash and bold entrepeneur. Piven does a very good job in protraying this particular aspect of Selfridge's character

But, if Piven is supposed to protray him as a flawed anti-hero (or similar), then I don't like his interpretation of this particular aspect of the character. The fact that I have to speculate in order to make sense of what kind of person he is suggests, to my taste at least, that he hasn't or isn't doing a good job in protraying Selfridge as this anti-heroic, flawed way.

I get the "bold, brash and loudness" of the character. His great love so far is actually the Selfridge's store. That much is obvious - perhaps too obvious at times, which means that those parts requiring a more naunced performance vis-a-vis his human relationships are not so clearly expressed (e.g. expressing some guilt towards his wife re: his affair; the realisation that Ellen Love's more trouble than its worth; the qualms he may/may not have playing poker with Lady Mae's partner, etc). These feelings are there for the audience to pick out for themselves, but Piven, I'm afraid, doesn't do quite enough (for me) on screen to indicate that he knows Selfridge may undergo, with any depth, such human feelings for another human.

As to your comments about British females. Welllll, one thing that is a bit of a generalisation. Some British female viewers of The Paradise may actually loathe Dennis. From the Paradise thread, I think a few liked her nemesis, Clara. But for me if there is a comparison is to be made between characters from The Paradise and Mr Selfridge, I think comparing Henry Selfridge with John Moray is a better match.

Secondly, I think British female viewers can identify with Mr Selfridge, "rich American businessman who came to Britain to teach the British how to run a department store properly and make himself richer than he already was while doing so". Why wouldn't they? Such characters are ten-a-penny on their TV screens, and are more likely to identify with him because it is a story they can relate to, given their history. What they may not be able to identify is the BIB.

Mr Selfridge can do all this stuff - cheat on his wife, and so on. He can do all that in a devil-may-care, blasť way. But then he says he can't do what he wants to do as a businessman w/o his wife's support. What is going on with Mr Selfridge between as 'this devil-may-care adulterer' and a man in need of his wife's support? Guilt? Fear? Indifference? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to exist - at least not in the way Piven plays him. Compared with John Moray I could see, however subtle it was, that he struggled with his own personal demons, weakness and guilt. I don't see that with Mr Selfridge. Maybe I'm not to, which is fine. Maybe all I'm supposed to see is a lot of "loudness, boldness and brashness", and that's it. Which, again, is fine but it doesn't make for rivetting watching in the long term
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Old 25-01-2013, 15:13
Nihonga
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I've only seen the first two episodes (recording the series as it clashes with Ripper Street) and the wife and I thought that Selfridge had been based on Gene Wilder's portrayal of Willy Wonker. I keep expecting him to burst into: 'Come with me, if you please, to a world of pure imagination'.
So true!
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Old 25-01-2013, 19:07
ChrissieAO
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You are judging Piven's performance without asking yourself how accurate it is in capturing what Harry Gordon Selfridge was really like. You SPECULATE above that Selfridge would have been restrained to fit in with the English -- but history tells us that is wrong. Selfridge was loud, bold and brash in all of his dealings with the English, which means Piven is playing the man the way he is supposed to be played. It is not Piven's fault that the real Selfridge is someone you apparently would have found off-putting.

And if I may comment on the trend I am seeing, especially among female viewers, of expressing a preference for The Paradise over Mr Selfridge, let us be honest why that is, really. British people, and particularly British women, were always going to find it a lot easier identifying with Denise the shop girl from a modest background (The Paradise's central character, through whose eyes we see the action) than they were going to identify with the rich American businessman who came to Britain to teach the British how to run a department store properly and make himself richer than he already was while doing so. Add in that he cheats on his perfectly nice wife with a woman who wouldn't look at him twice if he didn't have money, and it is not hard to imagine why much of the audience would rather root against the show's main character, not for him. Still, I find I am enjoying Mr Selfridge about as much as I did The Paradise. I don't think it is a bad thing to have the main character of at least one of two similarly-themed shows be someone who is deeply flawed and maybe more of an anti-hero than a hero.
Mmmm not quite sure I agree with all your points, although I do agree with you that a lot of female posters have expressed their preference for the Paradise.
I think one of the mains reasons is that, like myself, we love a good romance and The Paradise has it in shedloads. I am really looking forward to series 2 to find out what happens with Moray and Denise.
Look at Downton Abbey, half the reason people loved it so much was the romance with Mathew and Mary and Bates and Anna.
Look at Pride and Prejudice and North and South to name a couple of fantastic and romantic period dramas.
I am watching Mr Selfridge but I am not gripped by it one bit...
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Old 27-01-2013, 21:28
Fudd
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I like the new character - I think she's needed to give some bite to the floor.
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Old 27-01-2013, 21:50
fudbeer
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Really enjoyed tonights episode best so far imo.
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Old 27-01-2013, 21:54
Vodka_Drinka
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This has definitely been the best episode so far, but I agree with those say that the supporting characters are more interesting than Mr Selfridge himself.
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Old 27-01-2013, 21:54
Kolin Klingon
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I say! This Mr Selfish is a bit of a cad!

Use and then dump for the next business deal.
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Old 27-01-2013, 21:55
Fudd
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Really enjoyed tonights episode best so far imo.
I agree; episode two was quite poor but since then it's been building momentum.

I wouldn't be upsetting Miss Love if I was Harry. Revenge is a dish best served cold after all.
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:00
Fudd
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I expected a bigger, brasher revenge from Ellen than revealing the affair but then she's hurting Harry in the best way possible.

Good episode tonight; much better than I expected from last week's trailer.
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:05
fudbeer
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I expected a bigger, brasher revenge from Ellen than revealing the affair but then she's hurting Harry in the best way possible.

Good episode tonight; much better than I expected from last week's trailer.
Yes its quite unpredictable which I kind of like.

Looking forward to next weeks episode.
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:07
DaisyFraser
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Doris Speed played Annie Walker superbly - but the same can't be said for Piven's portrayal of Selfridge. Pretty much every scene features him doing the same thing - waving his arms around while he talks in a booming voice and shows off his teeth. There are the odd moments where he tries to look 'guilty' or 'concerned' - but then you can see the joins. Although they are struggling with below par material, the rest of the cast outshine him. People wanted to see Annie Walker because her character had real heart and warmth. There's nothing remotely comparable in Piven's performance - and he, unlike Speed, plays the character on which the entire show hinges.

This week's episode was superbly directed - John Strickland is excellent - but what the hell was going on with the stories? Agnes gets hit by her father in the first five minutes ... then she disappears for half an hour and he is never seen again. Her attempts to disguise her black eye fail as soon as she gets into work - then, for the rest of the episode, she goes into an entirely different story about perfume and a possible romance with Henri. Bizarre story-telling: surely it should have been Henri who spots the black eye, shows kindness to Agnes and that fuels their story together; meanwhile, there should have been a pay-off for the father.

Instead, however, the show is sinking into what I suspected it would become: a period soap with nothing at stake, because we all know Selfridges is a success story, and there are nowhere near enough characters for us to care about. It would seem I'm not the only dissatisfied customer - the viewing figures are dropping ...
Interested to know how John Strickland came to your attention.
You're right - he is a fab director (Emmy for Prime Suspect; Whitechapel and loads of other stuff) and a really lovely man too (Declared interest = he's my cousin!!)
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:21
jamtamara
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Does anyone see a resemblance between Ellen Love actress Zoe Tapper http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2812326144/nm1483730 and Daniela Denby-Ashe? http://gallery.tartydoris.com/_tarty...by_Ashe658.jpg

Love the Willy Wonka one.
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:22
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I am still enjoying this. I love his enthusiasm

I like Lady Mai but she doesn't do enough, Katherine Kelly is wasted

I could have done without the drunken useless father bits.

When will they bust the warehouse fiddle ?
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:56
Midnight Moggy
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Jeremy Piven really can't act very well! I have never watched him in anything else though. Is he always this bad?

But I'm still enjoying watching this show, despite his acting.

I know a lot of people don't like Ellen Love very much, but I think Zoe Tapper is great in this role, and I find Lady Mae to be the more annoying character.
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Old 27-01-2013, 23:03
Walter Neff
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I am still enjoying this. I love his enthusiasm

I could have done without the drunken useless father bits.
I agree, he is awful, like a really obvious pantomime villain.
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Old 27-01-2013, 23:35
oldhag
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I really enjoyed this again. Even the crap at playing a drunk father didn't bother me unduly. All else made up for it.
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Old 27-01-2013, 23:46
Rowan Hedge
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Jeremy Piven really can't act very well! I have never watched him in anything else though. Is he always this bad?

But I'm still enjoying watching this show, despite his acting.

I know a lot of people don't like Ellen Love very much, but I think Zoe Tapper is great in this role, and I find Lady Mae to be the more annoying character.
Yes he is a very poor excuse for an actor, everything he has done so far feels like a phoned in performance,
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