The primary role of a judge is to rank the skaters in order of merit from 1st to last. They don't need to have to offer any comment to be able to do that, constructive or otherwise.

The offering of comment is only important because the comments made by the judges is televised. In theory the purpose of any comment being made is to help the skaters improve and to provide something to be worked on in training.

Karen doesn't need to provide the skaters with something that can be worked on in training - she does the training!

thanks - thats a little clearer - ice dancing is just that - dancing on the ice whereas the ice skating is a little more - well - just skating lol - when I say "just skating" I mean its less "showy and dancey" (if that makes sense)

all that aside I still think that Robin is just as qualified as Karen to judge the show - just my opinion tho and I do think that Karen is better when she is just coaching

^ This absolutely. For Jason to say that 4 out of 6 were a 3.5 and the other only 0.5 below them is just silly. It doesn't reflect the range of abilities on show at all.

So, if I understand your point correctly, all she should be doing is just giving a score and saying absolutely nothing.

But, as you note, it is televised and there is an audience interested to know something about the performance. It is not a private occupation between her and the contestants.


It is even possible that, were she to make constructive and informed comments and criticism, Jason would even, perhaps, be less abrasive; as it is he seems forced to counter her bland, content free, contributions.

Bring back last years panel! Miles better.

And pigs might fly and hell might freeze over. We know he wouldn't tone it down because two years ago he was on the panel and Karen wasn't and he was so abrasive that year that he had to be fired.....and (IMO) he should have stayed fired!

There is nothing wrong with having a judge whose role is to be the 'nice' one, just as Jason's role is to be the total bar steward.

I am sure I spotted Steven Pickavance a couple of times in the training videos on Saturday evening so I guess he is still involved with the couples to some extent

Ok, in for penny, fully realising I may be saying too much and over-reacting...


BIB - But, as I tried to explain in my original post, you can be a coach (or teacher, in my case) and judge.


BIB - by leaving her emotions at the door! If I could do it teaching my daughter from the ages of 5-9 then I'm darned sure Karen can teaching adults who aren't even related to her!


But that only strengthens my argument - the only child in a class of 28 I was related to was my daughter! Yet I treated her no differently (or harder, in some cases) than I treated any other child. At the risk of repeating myself, if I can do that (with all the emotions attached) than surely Karen can? She might have 'no reason' to favour any of them over anyone else (although actually, she probably does have more to do with some celebs than others) but that's irrelevant!


I've just told my (now 14 year old daughter) this and she says I must tell you "I feel your pain"!


BIB - again, the point I made in my first post. It should always be 'head' (or actual progress/skill) and never 'heart' if you are to judge people. It doesn't matter whether you are involved with one, two or everyone in the 'class' you are judging, it should be no different. It's no defense to say that Karen is 'the same' to all of them; I could have had twins, or triplets, of mine in my class for four years instead of a singleton, but it would have made no difference to how I treated ALL of them! Lack of emotion is paramount when marking/judging people you are involved with on a personal level when you are dealing with them also on a professional level.


I don't agree with Jason's style either, but essentially he is remote and detached from those he is critiquing. He may not go about it the right way (and sometimes he certainly doesn't) but he doesn't let emotions get in the way. It is impartiality that people are commenting on here the most, not who can do it in the 'nicest'' way or who is an antidote to whom.


Her marks were, probably, mostly fair (and mostly akin to Robin's) and if it was all about that then no would be complaining. It's the COMMENTS Karen makes which show her to be more involved (emotionally) and lacking in impartiality that is the issue here. This is only programme 1 - from past experience, however, Karen has been consistently more 'emotionally involved' in the contestants when it comes to marks/judging critiques than the other judges and history does have a habit of repeating itself... and from the comments Karen gave last night she has not changed her way of doing things at all! (And yes, I do want more skating judges on the panel, but only if they comment on what they see on the night, NOT what they 'wish' they'd seen, or they 'know what contestants can do, but didn't show tonight'.


Exactly. I don't like the way Jason phrases his critiques at all - he's just as wrong as Karen in the way he goes about it, but for the opposite reasons - but at least he does it (mostly) without investing in the people.

Karen can get to know the people, of course she can, but she has to leave that behind on a Sunday night. I love my daughter to death, but I had to leave that behind when we crossed the threshold of school every day at 9am. I would have done her (or me) no favours if I'd have let my emotions get in the way of teaching her, disciplining her or writing her end-of-term reports. As I say, if anything, I was harder on her than anyone else - and she hated me for it! Karen should be the same - she can be close to them as people as she likes, but when it comes to the 'work' bit, she needs to leave that all behind. I could have marked my daughter on her 'potential' or 'what I'd seen behind the scenes' (aka at home) to my heart's content, but that's irrelevant when I'm expected to make comment on her performance in one lesson on day at one time.

Sorry, Karen, but that's what you need to to learn to do, or someone needs to explain to you!

I don't understand why they brought her back as a judge to be honest. Last night just showed that she cannot remain impartial to the celebrities. Her talents lie as a coach not a judge.

I thought Nicky was a far better and more impartial judge than Karen

Reiterating that I'm speaking as a teacher's daughter, I have to say that I completely agree with jerseyporter. Teachers who teach their own children have to keep being their parental feelings towards their own child out of the classroom. Karen is coaching some adults, not young children so they don't need her to be in a parental role for them. Plus, she's coaching them for only a few months and not for several years as she would do if they were training to be competitive skaters. The level of emotional involvement should therefore not be so great as to render her incapable of putting aside her feelings as a coach when it comes time to judge. As a judge, she's supposed to be impartial, marking and commenting based on what she sees on the night, not what she sees behind the scenes.

He was also very erratic - on a completely different planet to the rest of us sometimes. But you're right that he was definitely more impartial.

Katarina is a better judge than karen , yes Kati was a solo skater but she contributed so much

I don't like Karen or Jason. What I think about Jason can't be said on DS, he's absolutely insufferable. However, I think Karen takes herself far too seriously, and I'm sure I'm going to get extremely fed up with the so-called "tension" between her and Jason every week. Much better to leave her on the coach's bench and get someone else in, perhaps a next-generation ice dancer who's a bit younger. We must have SOME decent young ice dancers, surely?

I doubt DOI would work without T&D but I wish they'd start allowing the pros to do some of their own choreography.

At present the show has the following:

» T&D setting the themes, the required elements, the music and doing the choreography.

» Karen working with a team of coaches to teach the celebs to skate and to help them with their routines each week.

» Two presenters - Phillip and Christine. After each skate, Phillip chats with T&D and each couple, while Christine chats with the judges.

» Four judges, including Karen who doesn't manage to separate her dual roles on the show from each other. However, when she wasn't on the judges' panel she was just a spare part during the actual show (not during training) so she does need some kind of role on the show.

The choreography needs to be freshened up, and Karen shouldn't be coaching and judging, so how does this sound:

» Let T&D continue to set the themes and the required elements and possibly even be involved in the music selections.

» Let the pros do the own choreography, like they do on Strictly.

» Let T&D replace Phillip & Christine. (The first few years of the tour, it was hosted by Andi Peters but in 2012, T&D hosted it, so they wouldn't be coming into hosting DOI with no experience of presenting live shows.)

» Take Karen off the judges' panel and let her as head coach, do the after skate chat with the couple that T&D do now.

I agree with your whole post.

BIB : This is entirely possible; in the competitive dance world, coaches frequently have to judge events in which their own students are taking part, more often than not, having several couples dancing against each other. If those couples weren't judged impartially, that coach would soon be without students.

I'm really glad that so many others are now seeing Karen's inability to judge properly in an impartial way. When Christine asked her who made her most proud last night and she said "all of them" - what a cop-out! Criticising another judges' marks on more than one occasion was also a bit off IMO.

In ice dance there are steps & dance patterns as you would see in ballroom dancing. You can see in this video the golden waltz pattern at 1:35: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGzijr-E0Mc . There are no jumps or throws, the key skills are the set patterns, footwork sequences, twizzles, lifts and dance spins. Also in ice dance, lifts can't last longer that 6 seconds, and the woman can't be lifted above her partner's head height.

Pairs is much more like single skating, and what we see on DOI is actually nearer pair skating than ice dance - couples do side by side jumps, twists, throws, side by side spins and footwork sequences. None of the restrictions on lifts that you have in ice dance apply in pairs. This is an example of a top pairs team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG64wuOb_AE You will sometimes see skaters changing from being single skaters to pair skating, or even competing in both disciplines at junior level, but you very very rarely see skaters switch from single or pair skating to dance; for a start, dance requires a different sort of blade for the boot!

I might say, from my experience of the competitive dance world that in those circumstances the school favourite gets marked 1st, the 2nd favourite 2nd and then those from other dance schools, 3rd, 4th etc. I don't remember the competitive dance world being a model for impartiality

Given that she was criticising Jason's marks, it was perfectly fair - they did resemble faecal matter.

She can judge in an impartial way - that is to say, score them in order of merit based on performance alone. The thing she can't do is give an unemotional verbal critique in which she slags them off.

Personally, I would rather have a judge who scores the skaters correctly but can't verbally slag people off than someone who gives virtually everyone the same score regardless of their level of competence and tells them all that they are shit.

Although either Torvill or Dean (I can't remember which) I think might be an exception to that rule.

You're right, Jayne skated pairs when she was a teenager, but had switched to ice dance by the time she was 18.

Yes, Jayne was a British Junior Champion Pairs skater with her first partner. After their partnership ended, she was at a bit of a loss for a couple of years because it was too late for her to begin making a serious attempt at becoming a solo skater. Then Chris' coach suggested pairing them together as he was also looking for a new partner and that's when she switched to ice dance.

I take your point when working as a teacher. (Been there, done that!), but you did omit an equally important point.

When you, as a teacher, wrote reports, made comments to parents, (or at least those who sufficiently interested to attend Parent evenings), you were, I am quite sure, wholly objective with all pupils outlining the good and the bad, (and even, perhaps the ugly!).

That is the correct way, the professional way to handle these situations - but, as you point out, Karen appears not to have the maturity, (surprising given her age), or commitment to be 'professional'. Sadly, she comes across as being more petulant than professional, although one can be quite sure that that is not her intention.

Indeed, a remark more suited to a pre-teenager to be honest, and certainly not appropriate for a woman of (fairly) mature years who wishes to be taken seriously.