I agree it's weird, but it is a bit more dosh for her...(keep it in the family like)

Karen really should stand down as a judge - or is there the old problem of ego creeping in where she she will refuse to do so

Of course - I didn't want to labour the point, though, figured I'd said enough already and didn't want to bore people! But you're right. Objectivity is one of the most important parts of giving constructive feedback on someone's abilities and progress. That's what Karen seems to be unable to learn - she's isn't very objective about anything, but she's certainly very subjective about lots of things!

Very refreshing to read how you and your child managed with you teaching at the same school. My experience is of the opposite unfortunately, as when I was in Brownies the daughter of who ran it got picked for everything - guess who made the choices

I appreciate Karen's knowledge and expertise on the subject of skating, but she isn't the most dynamic and interesting person - in fact as a judge she is rather dull.

Send her off to the commentary box to work with Tony - and bring back Katarina Witt

^^^ BIB

I think Karen's a great judge. I think she usually gives out the highest marks out of all the judges because she works with them during the week so knows everything about them and how they're doing, what they're doing well in, what they're struggling with, (etc). And she uses this knowledge for the live show and probably compares how they've done in rehearsals to their live show performance, (as in, maybe if the live show is the best they've ever performed, she might give them an extra mark or so). This would probably explain why she's allowed to both coach and judge - her role as a judge is that she coaches as well, like Jason's role is to look at the performance aspect and only look at that and not the skating elements. Each judge looks at something different.

And she clearly knows what she's talking about. She's worked in ice dancing her whole life so she's more than qualified enough to be there. She's entitled to her opinion, like everyone else on the panel is. In my eyes, it's how you use it and to me, she uses her opinion a hell of a lot better than someone like Jason, who just uses it to get attention by being nasty.

I agree.

I have a horrible feeling though - that she will be encouraged to enter into arguments with Jason. To 'liven' things up.

I may be reaching for the mute button.

Oh, believe me, I've seen it both ways. What I neglected to mention was the the headteacher's daughter was also at the school - and she was certainly the 'golden girl'! Maybe it's me who stupid, but I just couldn't do it that way. I couldn't have held my head up with the other parents at birthday parties out of school! My poor daughter even sometimes called me 'Mrs' at home and put her hand up to go to the toilet out of habit from being at work with me! (It's ok, we laughed about it - no harm done!) But what mortified her more was calling me 'Mum' at work (which, ironically, children of that age often call their teachers anyway - I've been called 'Mum loads of times'... but thankfully not now that I'm working in post-16 education though )


But what Karen sees during the week/during rehearsals or at any other time other than the performance during the show is irrelevant! That's the point myself and others have been making! I knew the efforts my daughter made at home, out of school, out of the classroom in which I taught her, but I STILL had to be completely objective when it came to how I approached assessing her at work - I couldn't take ANYTHING into account, other than that which I was being asked to take into account.

Teaching/judging, it doesn't matter - it's all the same. If you're involved you have to be objective, otherwise you shouldn't be doing the job. If I could separate myself from my own daughter in a primary school class I damned sure a grown woman like Karen can separate herself from a bunch of adults who are old enough to take it!

I'm not saying she can't be on the panel, but she can only be there if she's prepared to leave the emotion, and all the other stuff from during the week, at the door on Sundays. Since when was I allowed to write my daugther's class report based on what I'd seen out of the environment/time/situation I was being asked to mark her on? The answer is, I wasn't! And even if I'd thought about it, I still wouldn't have done it! (Yes, my children hate being the daughter of a local teacher! )

I'm sure if Karen had picked out one couple then everyone would be moaning about her showing favouritism and that means she's a bad judge. I don't think its a cop out to say she was proud of them all.

Also how would one couple have felt maybe hearing I'm proud of x , y , z but not w and u when they mostly did well for a first skate.

I think Karen marks fairly and it's just her comments that sometimes get clouded with her emotions but as long as it doesn't affect the actual scoring then I don't have a problem and as long as it doesn't affect the skate off results to the point of the wrong decision being made then again I don't have an issue.

She is not fully involved with all the couples though. Steven Pickavance is still the coach for the Northern couples so he works with them during the week whereas Karen works with the Southern based couples and I think those in the North only see her on choreo days and obviously at the weekend for last rehearsals etc.

Karen has criticised when necessary in the past and think the problem we have with Karen now is she became protective over Johnson because of his injuries etc and I think was careful in how she dealt with him i.e with training him and how they spoke to him etc and how the judges dealt with him and I think that has stayed with her now as almost a bad habit and she over explains/justifies the scores she is given. I don't know if I am explaining myself correctly but I know while she was defensive of the skaters she wasn't in the same way she is now.

I have to agree with that. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. Besides, Robin was asked who he thought was in danger of being in the skate-off and he didn't give any names either (he said it would be whoever didn't make an impact on the viewers at home) and he wasn't criticised for not naming specific couples. If the Head Judge doesn't single out anyone in particular, why should Karen?

But could you? You keep telling us you were harder on her than on the others to make sure you weren't being seen to be showing her any favouritism. Isn't being biased against someone just as bad as being biased in favour of them?

I have to agree with this. If it comes to fairness, I would rather have someone who gives them the correct scores and places them in order of merit even if they are a bit wet when it comes to being questioned by Phillip and Christine than the attention seeking prat that is Jason Gardner who thinks that all of them are at the same level.

I wish! But she seems to have done so much in showbusiness as well as skating that I doubt we will see her again.

I was hard, yes, but fair - I didn't make things up she hadn't done, if that's what you're thinking! But what I couldn't do was allow the things I saw outside of what I was being asked to comment on influence my reports when it came to giving them about her, any more than I could about anyone else. Being close to her didn't influence me in that respect.

But my daughter would certainly agree with you that she had a raw deal! But hey, she's, come out of it unscathed and so have I! And many teachers' children would tell you the same as I've done - you have to leave emotion at the door and be impartial (if, sometimes, you end up being harder on them than others it's to make your impartiality even more obvious to the idiots who immediately assume you'll make allowances for your own - you have no idea the things that were said about me on the school gate by other mums... until they saw they'd jumped to the wrong conclusions).

Karen can be on the panel as long as she judges without letting her emotions cloud her marks or comments - but mainly I think it's the comments that people have issue with as her marks are usually around Robin's standard as far as skating is concerned. Whereas Robin justifies his marks from a mostly technical standpoint, Karen tends to justify hers from an emotional standpoint - and that's what people (rightly or wrongly) object to. Again, using my analogy, I had to mark technically on progress and achievement on reports (e.g. there are the National Curriculum guidelines for that age group - how has each child performed/improved relative to them?) but I couldn't mark using my emotions (for mine, or for anyone else's child come to that - and I knew some of the mums very well out of school, and some did expect favours from me!).

Karen's between a rock and hard place as far justifying her place on the panel is concerned unless she can show that separation - and, although he expresses it so obnoxiously and inappropriately, I think that's actually what Jason is trying to say too to some extent.

Hi

This is a reply I got from viewer services when I enquired why Kati isn't on the judging panel - and why Jason is there - despite his previous conduct - and should Karen be judging too


Dear

Thank you for your recent email regarding Dancing On Ice. As I am sure you can appreciate it is unlikely that we can please all of our viewer’s with the choice of judges. It will always be the case that previous judges may have other commitments or the decision is made to include a new face. Karen and Jason are very experienced judges, hence being asked to take on the role. I can confirm that your comments have been noted here at ITV Viewer Services.

May I take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to contact us here at ITV Viewer Services. If we can be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards
ITV Viewer Services

To be honest I wasn't thinking of dance school teachers, but of coaches who's students dance Open Circuit competitions, up to and including the likes of the Blackpool Open Festival, the International, and other open to the world events, for amateurs and professionals.

But you are right about the competitive dance world generally not being a model of impartiality. Some coaches may well mark his/her own students above those he doesn't teach, but he has to be very impartial if/when he finds perhaps 3 of 6 couples in a final all go to him for lessons.

No coach is allowed to judge any event in which any member of his/her family is competing.

My experience with dance schools is that when they hold competitions between themselves and other schools it is absolutely unheard of that any teacher from any of the schools involved would be allowed to judge.

Although I respect Robin's knowledge and vast experience I must also venture that Karen is the only ice dancing judge who's been there and done that.

In truth I cannot for the life of me understand the point or purpose of Jason and Ashley.

Louis, Robin and Katerina were perfect imo.

For me - Karen and Robin are the only ones who's opinion I listen to on the show. They're the only Ice-Skaters there (and Karen in particularly knows more about Ice-Dancing than even Robin does). Jason is there just for controversy (and he's funny) but everyone knows he knows nothing about Ice-Dancing. He can bang on as much as he likes about arm movements - but unless you've got a pair of feet that can negoiate you around the ice safely and fluidly - it doesn't mean a damn thing how 'nicely' you wave your arms. The only reason Ashley is there is because she was so popular on IAC (I loved her on that show and wanted her to win) she's surplus to requirements on DOI. They really shouldn't have TWO panelists who know nothing about ice-skating.

Karen marks high because Jason marks low, like a tipped pair of scales.

She was half of a successful ice dance team and so is fully qualified to be on the panel and I for one am glad to see her back. Jason Gardiner is an idiot and although he gives constructive criticism his expectations for week one are ridiculous. She fills that middle ground between Robins fair comments and Jason's negative ones. I read that Jason was brought back to boost ratings but I think they are deluded if they think that's the way.

Doesn't really tell us a lot - in particular we are none the wiser as to whether Kati left of her own volition or not.

I think Karen and Jason are just cardboard figures - in fact those full-size cutouts would do just as well. I pay no attention to them.

I think objectivity comes down to the individual and some are better at it than others. Previous form suggests Karen lets her heart rule her head. It will be interesting to see how she pans out this series. If she wants to remain as judge then give up her coaching role or vice versa is once solution but I don't see that happening either but to do both leaves her open to not being as impartial as the others.