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Jimmy Saville to be revealed as a paedophile? (Part 7)


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Old 08-02-2013, 12:37
lexi22
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The one thing I found a little odd here is him asking why it has taken 40 years for these accusations to emerge? I don't know, that - just IMO - suggest that there's a basis to the accusations - that something did occur, but nothing - as far as he's concerned - that could have been so serious as to warrant police attention 40 years down the line?

Or maybe not, maybe he's just very upset, as one would be if innocent, and that's just him defending his corner...
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Old 08-02-2013, 18:57
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The one thing I found a little odd here is him asking why it has taken 40 years for these accusations to emerge? I don't know, that - just IMO - suggest that there's a basis to the accusations - that something did occur, but nothing - as far as he's concerned - that could have been so serious as to warrant police attention 40 years down the line?

Or maybe not, maybe he's just very upset, as one would be if innocent, and that's just him defending his corner...
I keep wondering why him? He was a big celeb at one time but hasn't really been for years now.
These women that have accused him forty years on can't just have pulled his name out of a hat and decided let's all go the police and report Stuart Hall. There must be truth in these allegations.
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Old 08-02-2013, 20:13
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Frances Andrade lives on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/audi...-tzigane-audio

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21387399
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Old 08-02-2013, 20:35
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There you have a clear illustration of 'why victims do not speak out' and what happens re the court case when they do.

it is all very well blandly saying the right balance should be struck when clearly so far it has not been.

The defendants had a year to prepare a defence with their team while she has none at all and was not prepared for what she had to go through, thereby being doubly victimised.
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Old 08-02-2013, 20:44
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I keep wondering why him? He was a big celeb at one time but hasn't really been for years now.
These women that have accused him forty years on can't just have pulled his name out of a hat and decided let's all go the police and report Stuart Hall. There must be truth in these allegations.
When he was arrested there were some very interesting comments on Twitter, including one from a journalist who claimed that she'd had her own experience with him. She quickly deleted it though.
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Old 08-02-2013, 21:05
Jo March
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There you have a clear illustration of 'why victims do not speak out' and what happens re the court case when they do.

it is all very well blandly saying the right balance should be struck when clearly so far it has not been.

The defendants had a year to prepare a defence with their team while she has none at all and was not prepared for what she had to go through, thereby being doubly victimised.
That is a tragic affair and not the first time a victim of abuse has taken their own life.
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Old 08-02-2013, 22:29
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That is a tragic affair and not the first time a victim of abuse has taken their own life.
It is tragic, and the circumstances that lead up to it are hateful. But we shouldn't forget that there are also those who are unjustly accused of horrible crimes, who are found not guilty, and who never get over it - sometimes even to the extent of also committing suicide. That is equally tragic.
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Old 08-02-2013, 23:16
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It is tragic, and the circumstances that lead up to it are hateful. But we shouldn't forget that there are also those who are unjustly accused of horrible crimes, who are found not guilty, and who never get over it - sometimes even to the extent of also committing suicide. That is equally tragic.
Of course it is but that particular subject wasn't being discussed. I was answering what was.
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Old 08-02-2013, 23:24
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Of course it is but that particular subject wasn't being discussed. I was answering what was.
I know, but I think it's important that it isn't forgotten.
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Old 08-02-2013, 23:27
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Libby Purves on sexism at the BBC
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...c-8481187.html
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Old 08-02-2013, 23:57
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The one thing I found a little odd here is him asking why it has taken 40 years for these accusations to emerge? I don't know, that - just IMO - suggest that there's a basis to the accusations - that something did occur, but nothing - as far as he's concerned - that could have been so serious as to warrant police attention 40 years down the line?

Or maybe not, maybe he's just very upset, as one would be if innocent, and that's just him defending his corner...
He could of course mean why if I did anything did people wait 40 years to say something on the back of another case , implying that the accusations are made up.

I am not saying there is guilt or innconece, we will have to wait and see.
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Old 09-02-2013, 00:04
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Frances Andrade 'traumatised’ by reliving abuse of 30 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...years-ago.html
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:42
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Mark Williams-Thomas‏ @mwilliamsthomas
One element that needs changing is the guidance for victims of child abuse not to get counselling until after trial.

Once a person has been very brave to report child abuse abuse the system must start to look after them as a person better.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:35
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Yeah, because not one victim has ever made a statement confirming the satanic rituals ever.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...atanist-ritual

Many people stopped reading when people said Savile was a perverted paedophile - "Nonsense, rubbish". Many people stopped reading when people said Cyril Smith was a perverted paedophile "He's a national treasure". Many people stopped reading when they were told there had been a huge cover-up. Shall I go on?
Many stopped reading when the title was taken over by a porn king.

Many stopped reading when it treated the public as if it was thick & stupid by continually publishing headlines about quack cures for cancer,Diana or the weather.

Many stopped reading when it only had the guts to accuse dead men
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:27
jamtamara
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Frances Andrade 'traumatised’ by reliving abuse of 30 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...years-ago.html
"Two days of having to give evidence in the witness box — something she had never wanted to do – and being given an understandably tough time by Brewer’s barrister, brought to the surface, in her own words, why witnesses in sex abuse trials are so reluctant to come to court.

The coping strategies she had used over the years to dissociate the grown up, loving mother-of-four from the girl that endured a hellish early life were useless when faced with the humiliation she felt she would cause her husband and four children.

Why she chose to apparently take her own life within a week of giving evidence remains a mystery, but her death raises serious questions about the pressure placed on reluctant witnesses to give evidence, and undoubtedly Mrs Andrade felt under great pressure over the court case.

Mrs Andrade, 48, had not reported Michael Brewer’s crimes to the police, and said she had never wanted the case to come to court..."

"For more than three decades, Frances Andrade had coped with the memories of the horrendous abuse she had suffered at the hands of the teacher she trusted and looked up to. "

"...“It’s been a difficult year and Frances has felt pummelled from all sides, having to give statements to the police, with her husband being ill. I don’t think she really had the strength inside her to cope with it all.”

Judge Martin Rutland said that Mrs Andrade was “clearly undergoing a cathartic experience, whatever the source”, while giving evidence.

He said that Miss Blackwell had acted professionally, something even Mrs Andrade had admitted, telling the barrister: “You are hugely insulting, but it’s your job.”

However, on January 24 it was disclosed in court, but not to the jury, that Mrs Andrade had died. A day earlier, the jury, on direction from the judge, recorded not guilty verdicts on five counts of indecent assault against Brewer due to insufficient evidence on how old Mrs Andrade was at the time. Brewer was eventually convicted on five other charges of indecent assault against Mrs Andrade..."

Among many other points, expect to be "hugely insulted" if you are a victim who in this instance did not want to go to court. It is apparently "the barrister's job".

She said that she did it "To help others" obviously under coercion by the police.

Why was she not given equal rights? This definitely highlights the need for change in the system.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:58
lexi22
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He could of course mean why if I did anything did people wait 40 years to say something on the back of another case, implying that the accusations are made up.

I am not saying there is guilt or innconece, we will have to wait and see.
Yes, you could be right. It just struck a slightly odd note when I read it, that's all.
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Old 09-02-2013, 13:34
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Mark Williams-Thomas‏ @mwilliamsthomas
Big discussion recently with snr police officer about the title 'historic' when talking about child abuse allegations. This title may change
Title 'Historic' does seriously impact on how police apply resources & in a way help the cognitive distortion of offender.
The current thoughts may be to drop the term 'Historic' completely. Child abuse is child abuse - so all dealt with the same.
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Old 09-02-2013, 14:44
jamtamara
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There is this thread currently in GD which is both relevant to BB's link above and of great interest to this thread:

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...1#post64150279
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Old 10-02-2013, 00:32
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Mark Watts ‏@MarkWatts_1

Exaro traces Louis Minster, Richmond’s director of social services from 1975 to1984. #Fernbridge http://www.exaronews.com/articles/48...-of-paedo-ring
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Old 10-02-2013, 00:46
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Murun Buchstansangur has a new blog with historic archive material
http://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:03
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Elm guest house: Home Office was warned by top Tory 30 years ago of VIP paedophile ring
10 Feb 2013 00:00
Geoffrey Dickens MP handed over a 50-page dossier detailing VIP child abuse in 1984

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...p-tory-1647786
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:06
Jo March
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Elm guest house: Home Office was warned by top Tory 30 years ago of VIP paedophile ring
10 Feb 2013 00:00
Geoffrey Dickens MP handed over a 50-page dossier detailing VIP child abuse in 1984

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...p-tory-1647786
"But the file has disappeared."

Now there's a surprise
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Old 10-02-2013, 14:01
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ExaroNews ‏@ExaroNews
Exaro update on investigation into Elm Guest House and Grafton Close: traces Louis Minster. #Fernbridge http://www.exaronews.com/articles/48...-of-paedo-ring

ExaroNews‏ @ExaroNews
More from Exaro next week about Louis Minster and why he left as Richmond’s ex-director of social services. #Fernbridge http://www.exaronews.com/articles/48...-of-paedo-ring
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Old 10-02-2013, 15:22
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"But the file has disappeared."

Now there's a surprise
But in the same article it also says.

A Home Office spokesman said: “We are aware of media reports from the 1980s about papers *collected by Geoffrey Dickens.

“Files from that time are no *longer held centrally by the department, but work is underway to find out what relevant documents have been archived.”
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Old 10-02-2013, 16:19
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I agree. I have said exactly the same thing myself on here.

I am interested in the subject because, firstly, like many others I have experience of it. In the past I have posted about bringing the subject itself out into the open, trying to understand it from the abuser's angle and the fact that it is a good thing that people are talking about it because that is how things can change for the better. This may not be everyone's opinion on here but that is mine. It does not mean that I reject anyone else's out of hand. It's a discussion and everything is part of that discussion. We can learn from each other and from BB's links (as has been flagged up by a couple of others).

I did think of studying the subject in order to further bring it out into the open. There are people who study to be forensic experts or psychologists, for example: it does not make them nasty or morbid people, though some may be, just as some policemen/judges/anyone and everyone may not be the pillars of the establishment we would wish.

Circles of Support (for the abusers) has been mentioned, which is a very positive thing and not at all morbid or nasty.

As far as I am concerned anyone can post on here. Sometimes people will become irate or will object to or question someone but that is to be expected on any forum. On the whole it has been an excellent thread which self-moderates and finds a level.
Excellent post (if I may say so) you shouldn't have to feel you have to explain yourself.

I don't like to think people think im a sicko etc. for posting here alot so stayed away for a few days, also since I felt bad for the last post I made *shrug* there are different reasons for having an interest but its got to be good if people are discussing such issues because people managed to get away with these crimes due to the topic being fairly taboo - people turning blind eyes etc., so some level of discussion has to be a healthy thing, to a set extent?. Knowledge is power, forewarned is forearmed and all of that, so if it can help lead to a better awareness and people can look out for others and pick up on potential signs of something untoward going on then that has to be good as well (bearing in mind not all abuse is towards children as well - I suppose domestic abuse wasn't talked about so much some 30-50 years ago?).

Constructive arguments are fine, thats what we tend to learn from, or through. Sometimes its seemed to go a little off in a tangent but there have been some quite interesting discussions held at times - if it gets people thinking and questioning things then thats got to a good thing too(?).

I think its important such issues/discussions are kept up to help reinforce that the public does have an interest, isn't forgetting and want to get to the bottom of what may have happened, historically or not, we want the police to keep investigating claims of abuse and hope to see the perpertrators brought to justice. Everyone is entitled to post and share opinions, as long as its done fairly sensitively (and again apologies if I offended people previously - I can get a bit off topic at times perhaps. Will try not to).
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