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Jimmy Saville to be revealed as a paedophile? (Part 7)


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Old 11-01-2013, 09:33
StrmChaserSteve
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On BBC premises... in these hospitals over 40 years

Shame on those that had a hunch or suspected something was going on, and remained silent

The inaction of people, meant he continued to abuse
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:07
Silent No More
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Wow, just wow.....

http://news.sky.com/story/1036610/ji...t-live-updates
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:16
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That makes sense. I take it such surveys are anonymous? I'm not sure if I'd be entirely truthful if I knew I may get follow up contact if I admitted to something I didn't want to talk about publically...
Completely and utterly anonymous. To the point that the collator doesn't even see your replies as they hand over the computer to you when covering possibly sensitive areas. I've done one.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:26
What name??
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People were not viewed with suspicion in the way they are today ,,.....and overly so IMO.

Plus you must take on board that security on such premises was very different 40 years ago and there was almost no such thing as a 'background check'.
The security isn't really that much different. I woke from an operation to have a strange man hovering over me. He was apparently the hospital chaplain who had popped into my room to see if I wanted support or to talk. They let him in my private room whilst I was still out. I woke up and told him to get out - however why let him wander uninvited into strangers rooms at all and why would someone want to do that?

Security has improved in some ways but people still asssume that X wouldn't do that, or it is impossible to think that Y would do that so they don't think the rules apply to that person. I think that is what happened to JS. Of course it was always weird for someone to have a room at a hospital and wander the wards but they accepted it because it was "just Jimmy" and they are probably doing exactly the same to someone else now.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:29
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Perhaps those people who try and get him off on some sort of age of consent technicality ('he wasn't actually a paedophile and it would have been legal in Spain' sort of stuff - also ignoring the 'consent' part of course) will now shut up. As well as those who seem to think it's some sort of money-making Ponzi scheme.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:33
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Absolutely. I still read this thread every day and it is refreshing to see the more reflective nature of the posts at the moment.

Obviously, there is no one solution that will work for all offenders, but I think that the more options available will help prevent more instances of abuse. I sincerely believe that the ability to discuss the sexual abuse of children in a rational manner will help those who have been abused to come forward as it removes some of the stigmatisation associated with it. I believe some who have been abused feel ashamed, and that obviously needs to be changed. Hopefully the big change that comes from all this coverage since JS will be that people are now aware that it is more commonplace than they might have previously thought, and the abused will know that they are not different or alone, and that society wants to support them.

The article about the Canada circle of support is here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nsandprobation

By the way, I also think that perhaps we could do with a few more do gooders!
Haha! (Not laughing about abuse obviously, but your comment about feeling cheated).

My younger sister experienced abuse, and is gay. My mum, bless her, still hopes it is a phase, but also wonders if the abuse made her gay.

And anyone who might say 'get over it'? They can get stuffed!
Thanks for the link again. I did have it bookmarked and had sent it to others. Excellent.

I was very interested to hear about your sister. I would not be surprised if this does happen in some instances as a result of abuse and bad experiences.

Thanks for your posts. Everything is sparking off everything else for me and I hope others.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:18
jamtamara
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How can we know how many crimes are committed if they are not reported?

The Crime Survey for England and Wales - formerly known as the British Crime Survey - gives a different picture of crime from that presented by the criminal justice system.

It is a massive, labour-intensive, perpetual operation for collecting, analysing and presenting information about ordinary people's experiences of, and feelings about, crime.

Its findings, especially about certain person-on-person crimes such as domestic violence and sexual assault, often show markedly different rates of offending from the official figures. To put it simply, the Crime Survey frequently elicits from its respondents accounts of serious crimes which have not been reported to the police.

Why aren't these crimes reported? Various reasons. Examples include shame, especially after a sexual assault: ignorance, where a victim isn't sure how to go about reporting a crime, or if it even WAS a crime (for example, a certain level of domestic violence may be acceptable in some communities): fear of further victimisation if the police become involved, and so on.

Some victims might put the offence down to their own carelessness, say if they leave valuables on sight in a car which are then stolen, or are embarrassed to have been in the dangerous situation in the first place, as when men are robbed in gay cruising areas. However, they might well mention such offences to the Crime Survey interviewer.

An important component of the Crime Survey is how people feel about crime. While you'd think that terrifying crimes like home invasions would frighten people most, in reality people are far more concerned with ongoing petty crime such as vandalism and drunks' unruly behaviour in the street at night. They are worried by what does happen, not what might.

This is how information about crime is collected independently of police and court statistics. I have done research using the Crime Survey, which gives precise and fascinating results when you combine groups of variables.

For example, I could ask, 'How punitive do respondents feel towards offenders, if the respondents are over 50, living with a partner, are straight, have adult non-dependent children and own a car and dog?'

OK, you probably wouldn't need to go into quite THAT level of detail! But it's fun to do.
However, by combining certain key variables we can interpret general attitudes to crime. This helps the criminal justice system to target resources where they will do most good.

Where the Survey begins to find a change in respondents' attitudes to certain crimes, this might be the first indication of a coming trend in offending. An obvious example might be where parents of young teenagers describe feeling worried about gang members carrying knives.

These parents are likely to be much more in touch with what's going on than the police are, if only because kids are more likely to confide their own fears in family members than in the authorities.

I came to know the Crime Survey very well indeed and am enthusiastic about it, can you tell?
@the BIB - and it does make you think.

Thanks for bringing that to the attention of others who might be interested in taking part.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:24
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Will this be known, re Savile offences, as Spindler's List?
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:54
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the yewtree report is pretty shocking http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-vie..._wda93650.html
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:57
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I wonder why each police force who interviewed 4 of the victims while Savile was still alive didn't bother to mention to any of them that they weren't the only victim? I can understand why they thought no one would believe them if they thought they were an isolated incident - but had the police told them there were others making the same complaint, that might well have spurred them on to take it further.

Question is: why did the police keep the other victims secret from each other? Were any of them 'friends' of Saville? The report is far worse than I imagined it would be and I really can't see a single reason for anyone to continue defending him. He deliberately targeted the vulnerable in the full knowledge they'd either be too scared to speak out, or that no one would believe them - and he was right. Some people still don't believe them. What a thoroughly vile piece of work he was, and that he managed (with the help of the police) to go to his grave still loved by many for what a 'wonderful' person he was is just tragic for all the people he abused and who have had to tolerate being called liars.
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:03
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I wonder why each police force who interviewed 4 of the victims while Savile was still alive didn't bother to mention to any of them that they weren't the only victim? I can understand why they thought no one would believe them if they thought they were an isolated incident - but had the police told them there were others making the same complaint, that might well have spurred them on to take it further.

Question is: why did the police keep the other victims secret from each other? Were any of them 'friends' of Saville? The report is far worse than I imagined it would be and I really can't see a single reason for anyone to continue defending him. He deliberately targeted the vulnerable in the full knowledge they'd either be too scared to speak out, or that no one would believe them - and he was right. Some people still don't believe them. What a thoroughly vile piece of work he was, and that he managed (with the help of the police) to go to his grave still loved by many for what a 'wonderful' person he was is just tragic for all the people he abused and who have had to tolerate being called liars.
Probably the case that at the time, the abuse statements were "just allegations", and therefore to keep the evidence sound, it had to be completely independent...

Under most circumstances, you do NOT want witnesses to know what each other are saying..
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:08
sozzled2day
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Probably the case that at the time, the abuse statements were "just allegations", and therefore to keep the evidence sound, it had to be completely independent...

Under most circumstances, you do NOT want witnesses to know what each other are saying..
But in a case of allegations against someone as powerful and famous as Savile, for the victims to know they weren't alone and that others had also complained would surely have made it easier for things to move forward, rather than thinking they were the only victim and that no one would take their word against Saville.
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:14
alcockell
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But in a case of allegations against someone as powerful and famous as Savile, for the victims to know they weren't alone and that others had also complained would surely have made it easier for things to move forward, rather than thinking they were the only victim and that no one would take their word against Saville.
Agreed... but unless you make an exception to SOPs re sexual abuse, you could have had the whole "talk and cover up by making sure all statements were the same" that led to some corrupt rulings before PACE...

20/20 hindsight and all that...
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:25
Eurostar
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I wonder why each police force who interviewed 4 of the victims while Savile was still alive didn't bother to mention to any of them that they weren't the only victim? I can understand why they thought no one would believe them if they thought they were an isolated incident - but had the police told them there were others making the same complaint, that might well have spurred them on to take it further.

Question is: why did the police keep the other victims secret from each other? Were any of them 'friends' of Saville? The report is far worse than I imagined it would be and I really can't see a single reason for anyone to continue defending him. He deliberately targeted the vulnerable in the full knowledge they'd either be too scared to speak out, or that no one would believe them - and he was right. Some people still don't believe them. What a thoroughly vile piece of work he was, and that he managed (with the help of the police) to go to his grave still loved by many for what a 'wonderful' person he was is just tragic for all the people he abused and who have had to tolerate being called liars.
There has to be a suspicion that even the police were influenced by Savile's celebrity. There's no sign they put any energy into investigating the claims. Another thing that baffles me is why the press didn't go after him in later years.
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:30
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Agreed... but unless you make an exception to SOPs re sexual abuse.
SOPs?
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:35
downtonfan
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I'd like to bring everyone's attention to the comments section the Digital Spy story.
The comment is made by a user called Dalekbuster523 and this is what he had to say about the victims not getting justice because Savile is dead:
"It's the victims's own fault. They should've come forward while he was still alive."

Read more: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/...#ixzz2HfoyI0mh

There is the reason WHY abused children wont speak up. It's fear, it's the fear that they wont be believed which was the case for so many in this investigation. The victims tried to speak up but there was a massive cover up.

How utterly monstrous to say "It's the victims fault because they never spoke up"

Shame on you, Dalekbuster. Shame. On. You.
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:45
alfster
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If the allegations are true, you've got to hand it to the guy...he was 'good'!

I'm not belittling what has happened to any victims...just that to get away with it, not for 'so long' but for his whole life in the public eye, that's (sadly) impressive (for all the wrong reasons obviously).
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Old 11-01-2013, 13:48
alfster
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But in a case of allegations against someone as powerful and famous as Savile, for the victims to know they weren't alone and that others had also complained would surely have made it easier for things to move forward, rather than thinking they were the only victim and that no one would take their word against Saville.
Unfortunately, they will always remain as allegations as for him to actually have 'done them' and broken the law he would have to be tried and prosecuted. This will not happen as he is dead.

One can just hope that society has changed enough now that sucha thing would not happen without being seen...but I can't really see this not happening again on some level as celebrity and power takl...just look at Silvio Berlusconi and how he's avoided being prosecuted in plain sight.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:06
alcockell
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Standard Operating Procedures.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:07
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I'd like to know how many offences were reported to the Police, what was reported, when, and what was done.

I believe a case was presented to the CPS back in the late 1990's but are there, and could there, have been any more?

I've very quickly scanned the Yewtree report but it seems vague regarding allegations made to the Police and only mentions file/s lost and an investigator now dead so facts can't be verified.

I would also like to know how many official complaints were made to the hospitals and the BBC and whether these were ignored.

I feel I have not got the full details of how JS was able to continue his abuse for decades.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:09
gulliverfoyle
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Unfortunately, they will always remain as allegations as for him to actually have 'done them' and broken the law he would have to be tried and prosecuted. This will not happen as he is dead.

One can just hope that society has changed enough now that sucha thing would not happen without being seen...but I can't really see this not happening again on some level as celebrity and power takl...just look at Silvio Berlusconi and how he's avoided being prosecuted in plain sight.
think you need to be careful the age of consent is 16 in italy and the women at his bunga bunga parties were paid "gifts"
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:10
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Perhaps those people who try and get him off on some sort of age of consent technicality ('he wasn't actually a paedophile and it would have been legal in Spain' sort of stuff - also ignoring the 'consent' part of course) will now shut up. As well as those who seem to think it's some sort of money-making Ponzi scheme.
... now there is evidence which has been investigated and verified, as opposed to accusations, you mean.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:17
alfster
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think you need to be careful the age of consent is 16 in italy and the women at his bunga bunga parties were paid "gifts"
Oh, sorry, yes, my comment was based on all his OTHER things like these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trials_...vio_Berlusconi

The trials of which he's strung out so much they run out within the Italian legal system.

I've 'no problem' with the age thing. Although accusations were that he paid for the sex which is illegal 'with a 16year old' in Italy.
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:19
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When he abused dying hospice patients surely they must have made allegations at the time so why were they not acted upon?
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Old 11-01-2013, 14:22
Penny Crayon
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There has to be a suspicion that even the police were influenced by Savile's celebrity. There's no sign they put any energy into investigating the claims. Another thing that baffles me is why the press didn't go after him in later years.
Or that Savile had stuff on them. Remember the story in his autobiography when he said 'if I go down I'll take half the station with me' or words to that effect.
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