[Gatehouse]

Originally Posted by tealady

Maybe she is on a scholarship.

I've done my best with freeze-frame, and from what I can see, the picture on the wall in her room says "Alice loveheart dad". Dad hasn't been seen on screen, and he would probably have featured at the police station given the severity of the crime that Grant is alleged to have committed, so she is at least from a single parent family. Yet another character who doesn't know their father-and now has no mother.


Talking of which, there has been no mention of Jessica's mother as yet..bit odd, that. Maybe like Arby she "doesn't have one"? And her name, Hyde...not Carvel, not Deyn. It could be a made-up-name to, ahem, "hyde" her identity, but seeing as everyone knows her as that anyway now, she'd surely go back to her real name if that wasn't it.


And who were "they" who "got her out when she was 4"? Who was Christos, the guy who looked after her, working for? She seemed to love him almost as a father. And she has a sense of humour, albeit warped-she giggles with Grant quite a lot.

[Gatehouse]

Or it could be "Alice loveheart Rab". Seems unlikely. She sure loves her lovehearts that girl..trying to brighten up that drab yellow room I guess.

[Gatehouse]

There really is something of The Precious about the manuscript. In Ep 3 alone, we've got Grant having to persuade Jessica that they'll give it up when they're in the bathroom,; then despite him having done this, Jessica having to persuade Grant to "drop it!" when he's outside the window-and Alice still isn't safe-and he doesn't drop it, he chucks it down in a right strop; then when Jessica herself picks it up to give to Arby, we get a wiping of the eyes, a little sniffle, and finally a hug, before Arby snatches it from her and recoils against the wall.

Then there's the effect it has earlier on both Grant and Alice-no nice, sensible (upper)-middle class girl would allow a rough lad-and a stranger-like Grant to stay in their room like that, but she's clearly also enraptured with the manuscript-"thanks for letting me see Utopia", etc.


For Arby, I think it's more a case of "mission accomplished"-then once he has it, he can get on to "personal stuff" in his chat with Jessica. If he doesn't at least perceive her in some way as a sister, it may be that he's surprised to see who she is...he does a couple of nice "I can't believe me peepers!" blinks.

[dodrade]

Surely the post mortems would show by the tragectory and entry points that the school shootings had to have been carried out by an adult?

The story of how Mr Rabbit got his name was very Keyser Soze-ish.

[barnsleykeith]

Originally Posted by dodrade

Surely the post mortems would show by the tragectory and entry points that the school shootings had to have been carried out by an adult?

The story of how Mr Rabbit got his name was very Keyser Soze-ish.

To quote Wilson Wilson - ''They faked the CCTV and fingerprints. No need to stand up in court. They just need to get their hands on him''.

and Jessica said ''They just made Grant the most famous kid in the country. The moment he is picked up they have him. All it cost was a handful of lies''

And it worked. Alice's schoolmates recognized Grant and told the authorities.

[barnsleykeith]

Originally Posted by Gatehouse

It's an interesting theory, and does fit with his cameo appearance last week, and what he said, whereas-

Spoiler

Letts was almost reticent to "give the order" when Assistant said "it's time". And the very name "Assistant" could be to put us off the scent. I do find the "his name begins with L, I think..." a bit lame/too obvious, whilst Letts almost seemed sensitive with Arby. However I think that was an act-Rea's characters are often very good at "acting", too! I still hope he "goes Gatehouse" on us

All assuming we have actually seen Mr Rabbit.

We have seen a rabbit - with a collection bucket outside Doomsday Comics. But I don't think he was our arch villain.

Alice has a crayon(?) drawing on her bedroom wall. It shows her holding hands with another boy. The boy looks like Grant. Spikey hair and dressed in blue. But I think it says Alice loves Kyle. So who is/was Kyle?

[wrighty694]

An observant colleague of mine has mentioned that when Arby is met by the headmaster at the school the headmaster says something along the lines of 'haven't seen you in a while, what are the police doing here?'.....Arby's a copper? Did anyone else catch this?

[spaniel-lover]

Originally Posted by barnsleykeith

To quote Wilson Wilson - ''They faked the CCTV and fingerprints. No need to stand up in court. They just need to get their hands on him''.

and Jessica said ''They just made Grant the most famous kid in the country. The moment he is picked up they have him. All it cost was a handful of lies''

And it worked. Alice's schoolmates recognized Grant and told the authorities.

Do you mean 'lives'?

[barnsleykeith]

Originally Posted by wrighty694

An observant colleague of mine has mentioned that when Arby is met by the headmaster at the school the headmaster says something along the lines of 'haven't seen you in a while, what are the police doing here?'.....Arby's a copper? Did anyone else catch this?

Arby and Lee pretended to be police when they first went to the school looking for Grant. He jumped out of the headmasters office window to escape.

Arby was posing as an officer as well when he went for Alice.

[barnsleykeith]

Originally Posted by spaniel-lover

Do you mean 'lives'?

Ooops. Correct. I'll give you the V.

[Barrie Williams]

Originally Posted by barnsleykeith

Arby and Lee pretended to be police when they first went to the school looking for Grant. He jumped out of the headmasters office window to escape.

Arby was posing as an officer as well when he went for Alice.

And nobody yet seems to have thought that he had rather an odd personality for a policeman it seems?

[Barrie Williams]

Originally Posted by VicsMum

Are you always this happy?

Always! Thanks for asking!

[Barrie Williams]

Originally Posted by Gatehouse

Ah, Barrie, Barrie, Barrie...I'm not going to get wound up by what you say; you might be an 11 year old kid for all I know


It's my opinion, that's all. I like it, you don't-yet you are still watching, I notice. Still, a little joust is always fun, so here we go!


Re: Jessica being graceful-yeah, a bit like a robot, actually! In a Bladerunner kinda way. Arby and her have a lot in common-yet a lot of differences, such as their movements.

Re: Arby having something wrong with him-yeah, obviously a guy who can callously murder and torture has "issues"; but I don't think many saw his childhood and an emerging self-questioning to be something quite so important. I did

Re: grass verge/funeral-yeah, that's what I thought at first-as do all the people I've discussed it with. But think about it...why would the publishers funeral procession go along the very road where he was grossly splattered? Doesn't that strike you as a little inappropriate? That's based on people seeing grass verge like the one in the publishers death scene-it might be a different one all together I guess. BUT why would Arby go to the funeral of the publisher? The Network would easily be able to get access to the body to confirm he is dead-they have already taken his widow into custody and there's a CIA agent in her place at her house.
Now consider Arby's comments to Letts about Lee's death, and the look on Arby's face as he staggered down the grass verge; looks like he's trying to feel, and just getting numb. Lee is a major loss to him-probably his biggest "life event" in some time. Enough to make him start questioning his emotions-and motivations-for the first time in his life?

Re: Coldplay-depends on what you think about Coldplay! Jessica hasn't had much in the way of cultural reference points; she thinks she's incredibly savvy in general. Yet Grant is blatantly more coooool than her, he at least realises how naff Coldplay are. At least it was early Coldplay she was playing I guess..."Shiver" would have been better in terms of musical merit, but lacks the ironic-for-the-situation lyrics.

Re: skinhead-well it's already been partly explained about the phone line, but if you are going to go around vaguely calling people baddies then you're missing a lot of the point..


Re: corpse gag-well it makes more sense second time around. I didn't see it coming, congratulations on your fantastic prowess of insight. You must have a much better idea than me what's going on, then!
Anyway, I found it funny.

Yes, let's joust! I'm not 11 by the way, add 40 years and you'll be nearer and I've been making TV programmes for the past 20 years or so.

I've got my own theories about the relationship between Jessica and Arby and where they both came from and often I watch programmes like this just to see if I'm right or wrong about things. This series feels to me a bit like a car crash, you know you shouldn't look but you can't help yourself!

For what it's worth, I like more of your ideas this time by the way, so let's just see how it pans out. I'm just a bit annoyed at the number of plot holes so far and hope that the producers do tie up the loose ends rather than just saying, 'oh that's a mistake but it doesn't matter because the viewers are muppets and will accept anything that we put in front of them'

[barnsleykeith]

Originally Posted by Barrie Williams

And nobody yet seems to have thought that he had rather an odd personality for a policeman it seems?

I would think everyone who meets Arby thinks he's strange. Nobody has aid out loud what they are thinking though. If you met a thick bobby would you tell him to his face what you thought of him? I've been tempted on a couple of occasions. But thought better of it in the end.

[Gatehouse]

Originally Posted by Barrie Williams

Yes, let's joust! I'm not 11 by the way, add 40 years and you'll be nearer and I've been making TV programmes for the past 20 years or so.

I've got my own theories about the relationship between Jessica and Arby and where they both came from and often I watch programmes like this just to see if I'm right or wrong about things. This series feels to me a bit like a car crash, you know you shouldn't look but you can't help yourself!

For what it's worth, I like more of your ideas this time by the way, so let's just see how it pans out. I'm just a bit annoyed at the number of plot holes so far and hope that the producers do tie up the loose ends rather than just saying, 'oh that's a mistake but it doesn't matter because the viewers are muppets and will accept anything that we put in front of them'

I didn't really think you're eleven-just a nod and a wink to the Grant storyline. To that end, "I make TV" is no more provable than "I'm a city trader and shag supermodels" It struck a chord of truth and made me wonder how many times over the years I've got suckered online like Bejan, Becky, Wilson and Ian


This isn't Muppet TV, IMO-this is trying to do something different and succeeding. All of those drab formulaic TV series and movies are the ones that are lapped up by people who tolerate rubbish "entertainment". Our expectation of drama-and TV in general-is very low, and I'm with Edward Murrow all the way on that. This is complicated drama, and deliberately other-worldly and "hyper-realistic". Read around-here and elsewhere-there are plenty of people giving up because they don't get what's going on; equally, those that love it often do so because they have to work and study the characters and scenes for clues, and get value for doing so, or because they enjoy not quite knowing what's going on, and trying to work it out-very similar to the response to Twin Peaks when it first came out, right down to the "not the point" catch-phrases (who killed Laura Palmer/where is Jessica Hyde).



Of course it isn't to everybody's tastes, if it was to most peoples tastes, it would probably be bland-and actually every bit as unrealistic as Utopia. And I wouldn't be watching it. I can't remember a drama on TV for ages where almost every single line-certainly every scene-is vital and telling you something important. And I utterly adore the music; if I'm confused or stuck, it gives me my cue every darn time. Dugdale running after Donaldson "down the rabbit hole" is possibly my favourite piece, and it's had me bouncing and skanking my way through the day at work




I'm not sure there are big plot-holes as such; the biggest one I'm aware of is the gas-leak/bashed in head in EP 1 or the argument about bullet trajectories in the school shootings-both are missing the obvious point that the police are under the influence of The Network, so it really doesn't have to be a water-tight explanation in those cases.



I like the news webpage that Dugdale is reading on the loo, btw-every single news story on there is a Network scam! It probably contains about as much truth as The Sun has in it's entire print run, mind..

[brangdon]

Originally Posted by Gatehouse

Milner-does anyone trust her? She rang back incredibly quickly; the skinhead bloke was already parked outside the gangs hideout-and probably had been for some time. Kinda implies that she knew they were there already.

That would be possible if she were working with Becky, but I don't think it's necessary or likely. Milner had to act quickly because she knew the Network would be. Also, I assumed there was a cut between the phone call and the skinhead turning up, which covered however long was necessary.

Originally Posted by blackletterday

Lee would have made a crappy Mr Rabbit, seeing as he couldn't out manoeuvre a blind man.

I don't think he was old enough, either. Mr Rabbit was working with Jessica's dad, and doing other shenanigans some time before that, so I think he must be well over 50 now.

[Gatehouse]

And Rabbit was embedded "30 years ago".


Becky could well be working with Milner, but I don't think so..I know that in a clip in a future episode she..

Spoiler

phones somebody whilst alone and says "I need to see you, I'm in trouble". That could be Milner, but it could be a multitude of other characters from what we know so far. (EDIT: actually, Milner did give them a phone to call her on, didn't she? Hmm, that could be who she is calling, but not necessarily "working with".) Next shot is of her unwrapping something-looks like it's in a small plastic bag. Could be a septic finger end I guess...

She says in another scene (to Ian): "We're just like them now, we're scary". Lovely roll of the r's on scary, too...awesome accent So that could be for Ian's benefit-he keeps playing the "look, we're just normal people, it has nothing to do with us" card. Or she could mean it from the heart. In a funny way, we know more about Arby than her now!

[Gatehouse]

Although Brangdon-I'm pretty sure skinhead was parked outside all along...

[Barrie Williams]

BTW. I did their, how long to find me thing on the C4 website and it said 40 hours, yet if they had my name and checked my facebook page, then they would see that I 'like' my local pub and should really be able to find me in a few hours!

[Gatehouse]

Yes I found that a bit weak-a lot of the links weren't that relevant or even slightly creepy (which is what I think they were going for). Wilson would have done a much better job. 4 obviously have a massive guilty conscience about changing the popular meaning of Big Brother and are trying to make up for it...still, I was slightly surprised and irritated by just how much my sleepy little burg had been spending on CCTV, especially given our massive job cuts in the past few years.

Anyhoo, you might get Arby tracking you down to the pub, but Lee wouldn't bother..not since the smoking ban

[catsitter]

Why did they have the warning for "graphic violence" at the start of the final segment of this episode? There was nothing particularly gruesome, was there?

Surely the law would prevent Grant's name from being released to the media as a suspect in the school shootings because of his age. Or if this law was overridden because of the severity of the crime, it would surely take much longer for this to be authorised than in the episode. I think all they would have been able to tell the media about Grant was that he was missing and the police were "concerned for his welfare" or something along those lines.

[T.K. Mazin]

I'm enjoying this series I have to say, purely because it feels different and fresh compared to the usual bland shows on TV. It's a nice breath of fresh air .

And Gatehouse, loving your theories and analysis - I did notice quite a few of them myself. Very interesting. Keep it up .

There's another Utopia thread on the Cult, Sci-Fi, Fantasy forum with some interesting thoughts and comments as well.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1785736

[barnsleykeith]

Originally Posted by catsitter

Why did they have the warning for "graphic violence" at the start of the final segment of this episode? There was nothing particularly gruesome, was there?

Surely the law would prevent Grant's name from being released to the media as a suspect in the school shootings because of his age. Or if this law was overridden because of the severity of the crime, it would surely take much longer for this to be authorised than in the episode. I think all they would have been able to tell the media about Grant was that he was missing and the police were "concerned for his welfare" or something along those lines.

You mean the final part when Alice's Mum was killed in front of her? And then Alice was terrorized by Arby. I found this bit the most distressing of all. Even more than the eyeball scene and the school massacre.

James Bulger's killers were caught when someone recognized them on TV. The CCTV footage was shown on National TV and a member of the public knew who the killers were. On that occasion though the killers weren't named - because the police didn't know who they were at the time. Grant being shown on TV reminded me of that case. But I'm not sure if children can be named in those circumstances, as you say. Maybe it's only allowed in exceptional circumstances? And the police decide with legal advice. Or the writers decided to use a plot device that isn't realistic?

[fruitloop27]

Originally Posted by barnsleykeith

You mean the final part when Alice's Mum was killed in front of her? And then Alice was terrorized by Arby. I found this bit the most distressing of all. Even more than the eyeball scene and the school massacre.

James Bulger's killers were caught when someone recognized them on TV. The CCTV footage was shown on National TV and a member of the public knew who the killers were. On that occasion though the killers weren't named - because the police didn't know who they were at the time. Grant being shown on TV reminded me of that case. But I'm not sure if children can be named in those circumstances, as you say. Maybe it's only allowed in exceptional circumstances? And the police decide with legal advice. Or the writers decided to use a plot device that isn't realistic?

The entire ep.3 was harrowing tbh. And yet despite this, I'm totally addicted to Utopia. I think the look/cinematography is fantastic & reminds me of Sherlock in that it's taking a risk breaking from the norm.
The odd thing is I miss Lee. I thought there might have been a bit more scope for his character but, oh well. He was rather handsome, too.

[VicsMum]

Originally Posted by T.K. Mazin

I'm enjoying this series I have to say, purely because it feels different and fresh compared to the usual bland shows on TV. It's a nice breath of fresh air .

And Gatehouse, loving your theories and analysis - I did notice quite a few of them myself. Very interesting. Keep it up .

There's another Utopia thread on the Cult, Sci-Fi, Fantasy forum with some interesting thoughts and comments as well.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1785736

Thanks, TK Mazin, that thread is fantastic and some of the posts are bang on!