[tomwozhere]

I hadn't watched it a while so I thought I would and I noticed something that has annoyed me.

When River gets out her diary, she says judging by his eyes it's early days. She then asks him if they had done crash of the Byzantium yet and then picnic at Asgard. When he says no she says it's very early days and then realises this is his first time meeting her.

I know Moffat probably was intending on using the Byzantium later on but they used it and it's messed with what River said. If the Doctor had done the crash of the Byzantium he must have regenerated (from matt to david) since then, that means it obviously wasn't early days.

Why couldn't the wrighters have just called the ship in Time of Angels something else to avoid the error?

[sohoguy]

Originally Posted by tomwozhere

I hadn't watched it a while so I thought I would and I noticed something that has annoyed me.

When River gets out her diary, she says judging by his eyes it's early days. She then asks him if they had done crash of the Byzantium yet and then picnic at Asgard. When he says no she says it's very early days and then realises this is his first time meeting her.

I know Moffat probably was intending on using the Byzantium later on but they used it and it's messed with what River said. If the Doctor had done the crash of the Byzantium he must have regenerated (from matt to david) since then, that means it obviously wasn't early days.

Why couldn't the wrighters have just called the ship in Time of Angels something else to avoid the error?

Yes I've always been confused by this. Perhaps River is so old at the point she meets the 10th Doc that she forgot what he looked like when she met him then.

[lordOfTime]

Clearly it was the first and only time she hed met 10's incarnation but she has pictures of all his faces, so to her the last moment with The Doctor could have been any one of them except perhaps 11.

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by lordOfTime

Clearly it was the first and only time she hed met 10's incarnation but she has pictures of all his faces, so to her the last moment with The Doctor could have been any one of them except perhaps 11.

But if he had done the Byzantium he would have already have been Matt and must have regenerated since then and considering this was the end of River she would have had many adventures with Matt's Doctor so it doesn't make sense.

[Torry_Z]

she thought he might have been a later doctor like lord of time says... it's the only way it makes sense... also he might not actually be the doctor he could have been an imposter from her perspective so it's a test...

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by Torry_Z

she thought he might have been a later doctor like lord of time says... it's the only way it makes sense... also he might not actually be the doctor he could have been an imposter from her perspective so it's a test...

But what I'm saying is that if he was a later doctor that would have come after Byzantium and it wouldn't be early days.

[sandydune]

Couldn't River meet him at any time in the future series if David Tennant was available for filming, she looked at his eyes, if she was to meet him again, maybe a tear that drops is enough to know that she is River, no words but a simple expression.

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by sandydune

Couldn't River meet him at any time in the future series if David Tennant was available for filming, she looked at his eyes, if she was to meet him again, maybe a tear that drops is enough to know that she is River, no words but a simple expression.

Sorry, my brain hurts from thinking about this whole thing, what do you mean?

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by lordOfTime

Clearly it was the first and only time she hed met 10's incarnation

Except it wasn't.

Dialogue in the show and Moffat himself have implied other meetings between River and Ten.

The Byzantium line can be explained by River only meeting 10 a few times and being (before the Library) not totally sure if he is before or after Matt Smith.

[Torry_Z]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Except it wasn't.

Dialogue in the show and Moffat himself have implied other meetings between River and Ten.

The Byzantium line can be explained by River only meeting 10 a few times and being (before the Library) not totally sure if he is before or after Matt Smith.

this... I think... it's implied they meet again... also Byzantium is his first 11 adventure but they're already well aquainted... the keeping score etc...

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Except it wasn't.

Dialogue in the show and Moffat himself have implied other meetings between River and Ten.

The Byzantium line can be explained by River only meeting 10 a few times and being (before the Library) not totally sure if he is before or after Matt Smith.

But why did she say it was early days if she thought he could be after Matt's doctor.

[sandydune]

Originally Posted by tomwozhere

Sorry, my brain hurts from thinking about this whole thing, what do you mean?

I'm sorry too,when I have read it back it is a bit strange.

There are two Tenth Doctors, one of them being Rose's Doctor. Somehow a version of River could go on to meet Rose's Doctor, he would be an older version of the Tenth Doctor that she didn't recognise at first with older eyes. It could even be that the older Doctor lets a tear fall and so then it all makes sense.

Actually it still seems strange

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by Torry_Z

this... I think... it's implied they meet again... also Byzantium is his first 11 adventure but they're already well aquainted... the keeping score etc...

Yeah, Eleven tells Amy that he and River Keep meeting in the wrong order. Not something he would say if this was only the 2nd time he ever saw her.

So he had met her more than once.

Now unless these meeting happened in the 12 or 2 year gaps that the Doctor left Amy for in The Eleventh Hour then these meetings had to be with Doc Ten.

Moffat also described the Byzantium meeting as "their first Major meeting since the Library" and for this to be a major meeting there must have been other meetings Moffat classes as Minor.

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by sandydune

I'm sorry too,when I have read it back it is a bit strange.

There are two Tenth Doctors, one of them being Rose's Doctor. Somehow a version of River could go on to meet Rose's Doctor, he would be an older version of the Tenth Doctor that she didn't recognise at first with older eyes. It could even be that the older Doctor lets a tear fall and so then it all makes sense.

Actually it still seems strange

It makes more sense now though, thanks for explaining.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by tomwozhere

But why did she say it was early days if she thought he could be after Matt's doctor.

Ok, then she know 10 is before 11 and she knew Byzantium was one of the earliest meetings she had with the Doctor but could not recall if it was with 10 or 11.
Byzantium may well have been 20 plus years in her personal past for all we know.


Or maybe she considers all the meetings with 10 & 11 early days for the Doctor, this would be true if she knew 5 later Doctors for example.

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Ok, then she know 10 is before 11 and she knew Byzantium was one of the earliest meetings she had with the Doctor but could not recall if it was with 10 or 11.
Byzantium may well have been 20 plus years in her personal past for all we know.


Or maybe she considers all the meetings with 10 & 11 early days for the Doctor, this would be true if she knew 5 later Doctors for example.

But wouldn't her memory be nearly as good as the doctor's (I'm only assuming though, we don't know how Human+Time Lord minds work). Surely she would remember Amy's first meeting of her.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by tomwozhere

But wouldn't her memory be nearly as good as the doctor's (I'm only assuming though, we don't know how Human+Time Lord minds work). Surely she would remember Amy's first meeting of her.

Well we know the Doctors memory isn't a 100% since he can only vaguely recall the events of The Web of Fear at the end of The Snowmen.

While it was Amys first meeting with River* it wasn't Rivers first meeting with Amy nor for that matter her last so for her it would be just another meeting.

*Not including the Mels incarnation.

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Well we know the Doctors memory isn't a 100% since he can only vaguely recall the events of The Web of Fear at the end of The Snowmen.

While it was Amys first meeting with River* it wasn't Rivers first meeting with Amy nor for that matter her last so for her it would be just another meeting.

*Not including the Mels incarnation.

But it's still an important milestone. And The Web Of Fear was hundreds of years ago so that's easier to forget. I don't think it's down to her forgetting, I think it's just a really annoying fault.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by tomwozhere

I don't think it's down to her forgetting, I think it's just a really annoying fault.

Ok, try this one
How about the Timeline is rewritten at some point.

When we see River in SitL she actually recalls that it was Doc 10 that she met at the Byzantium.

However at a point after SitL when 10 was about to visit the Delirium Archives and discover the Black Box of the Byzantium (and thus rescue River)something happens to distract him and he doesn't go.

So Rivers History changes, in the original Timeline it's 10 she meets in ToA but in the rewritten one it's 11.

We know Rivers life can be changed as we saw in Time of Angels where she had been released from Stormcage due to there being no records of the Doctor when previously she was doing stuff like the Angels mission in order to earn parole.

[MinkytheDog]

Analogy - Ten years from now, I jump in my Tardis and travel through time where I meet you - I then I ask you if you've started this thread and if you say "No", you must be earlier in your timeline.

Ordinarily, it would be obvious because I'd know that I had travelled back in time by more than the ten years from when you created this thread - but you also have a Tardis so you could be in 2003 but originate from 2033 having written your post in 1066 and not posted it until 2013 - so the time of the meeting does not indicate the position on the personal time line for either of us.

Since I don't know what you look like, I'd have to ask at least one question to which I already knew the answer in order to determine where you are in your personal time line.

That's the key - there were two time travellers involved so they'd need a common frame of reference to determine each other's relative age - in this case, the existence of a shared adventure.

[Granny McSmith]

I just think Moffat should pay more attention to what he's writing.

It obviously wasn't thought through at the time of writing TSitL; he probably thought at the time that DT would stay on and he would write the Byzantium thing for him. As that didn't happen, it just makes the comments by River about the future Doctor seem very odd.

No way round it, imo, just as there's no way round the fact that she behaves very oddly in TIA/TDotM pretending she knows nothing about what's going on with the shooting of the Doctor and the identity of the little girl, when of course she does.

I love River as a character, but the way her story has been written is a shambles. It's OK if you just watch the programme then forget about it immediately; but it's not good if, as a dedicated fan, you delve a bit deeper.

[Torry_Z]

she thinks he's a later doctor than 11... only when he has no idea does she realise he's earlier... and when they maybe meet in her timeline before and his after he didn't tell her which number he is... she does say she needs the spotters guide in crash of the Byzantium

[sandydune]

Originally Posted by MinkytheDog

Analogy - Ten years from now, I jump in my Tardis and travel through time where I meet you - I then I ask you if you've started this thread and if you say "No", you must be earlier in your timeline.

Sorry to interrupt
From your analogy, would the thread be still there in ten years time for you to know that someone started the thread at that point


And if the answer is no, would that remind the person to make the thread?

[tomwozhere]

Originally Posted by Torry_Z

she thinks he's a later doctor than 11... only when he has no idea does she realise he's earlier... and when they maybe meet in her timeline before and his after he didn't tell her which number he is... she does say she needs the spotters guide in crash of the Byzantium

Then why is it early days? She wouldn't har said that if she thought he was 12 or later because it wouldn't be early days.

[Torry_Z]

Originally Posted by tomwozhere

Then why is it early days? She wouldn't har said that if she thought he was 12 or later because it wouldn't be early days.

because she realises it's early days after she's asked