[AdelaideGirl]

You can be scientific with humour but it did sometimes seem that JNT and Chris Bidmead forgot that.

[DavetheScot]

One reason for declining viewing figures in series 18 might have been a change to an earlier time. Previous series had tended to be shown in a post-6pm slot, but series 18 was about 5.10. It's less likely that people who were doing something on Saturday afternoon would get back (and video recorders were still not so common).

[jrmswfc]

Originally Posted by DavetheScot

One reason for declining viewing figures in series 18 might have been a change to an earlier time. Previous series had tended to be shown in a post-6pm slot, but series 18 was about 5.10. It's less likely that people who were doing something on Saturday afternoon would get back (and video recorders were still not so common).

Yes, I recall that they moved it earlier, straight after the news which followed Grandstand. I remember getting home from the football to find that Doctor Who had either finished or nearly finished so I missed alternate episodes of the final two stories (I started going to football matches in Feb 1981).

I can't remember what time the Davison stories were on, I assume they were similar, but I lost interest a bit after my hero Tom Baker left the role as he was the only Doctor I'd really known.

[Corwin]

Originally Posted by jrmswfc

I can't remember what time the Davison stories were on, I assume they were similar, but I lost interest a bit after my hero Tom Baker left the role as he was the only Doctor I'd really known.

Davisons stories were moved off Saturday and shown twice weekly (the actual days varied between seasons)

I'd forgotten till I rewatched the stories on DVD that I'd actually missed big chunks of Davisons first Season as I would only catch about half of the Monday episode.

[Jon Ross]

Originally Posted by Pull2Open

I think the general viewing public, not the fans, just fell out of love with it. JNT changed the theme, the costume and the direction of the programme...thats a lot to swallow if you're not die hard I would imagine!

Tom Baker was popular for his portrayal, he was stopped from being his Doctor imo!

Originally Posted by CELT1987

Spot on.

I thought it wouldn't be long before the JNT bashing started.

Yes, JNT did change the direction of the series, but then so did Graham Williams when he took over from Hinchcliffe, so did Hinchcliffe when he took over from Barry Letts. That's what producers tend to do.

Personally, I think Baker DID need reining in and JNT did need to make changes. The way the show had declined in the three seasons since Hinchcliffe left was pretty astonishing. By Season 17 it was little more than a camp sci-fi panto for the most part.

[Pull2Open]

Originally Posted by Jon Ross

I thought it wouldn't be long before the JNT bashing started.

Yes, JNT did change the direction of the series, but then so did Graham Williams when he took over from Hinchcliffe, so did Hinchcliffe when he took over from Barry Letts. That's what producers tend to do.

Personally, I think Baker DID need reining in and JNT did need to make changes. The way the show had declined in the three seasons since Hinchcliffe left was pretty astonishing. By Season 17 it was little more than a camp sci-fi panto for the most part.

I wasn't bashing anyone tbh, just stating a fact, he changed a lot all at once...it probably was too much for everyone!

Edit: misunderstood rest of post!

[Jon Ross]

I don't think Season 18 is great, but at least it's Doctor Who with a production team that's taking the show seriously again, which certainly wasn't the case with Graham Williams and Douglas Adams.

[CELT1987]

Originally Posted by Jon Ross

I thought it wouldn't be long before the JNT bashing started.

Yes, JNT did change the direction of the series, but then so did Graham Williams when he took over from Hinchcliffe, so did Hinchcliffe when he took over from Barry Letts. That's what producers tend to do.

Personally, I think Baker DID need reining in and JNT did need to make changes. The way the show had declined in the three seasons since Hinchcliffe left was pretty astonishing. By Season 17 it was little more than a camp sci-fi panto for the most part.

I think JNT was right to cut out some of the silly humour, but still kept the wit of Tom Baker's Doctor. Baker was far too serious in season 18, a balance of wit and seriousness was how his portrayal was in his first 3 seasons.

[TimeMyRelative]

Hmm... poor old JNT and his dynamic opening season getting a real slating here. As I said in another thread I actually place S18 as his 3rd strongest overall. S12 may have had that position if Zygons was the closer as first planned.
Yes Tom is very different but still magnetic in spite of his grey mood, and it fits the season long theme of decay and decline.
Bidmead for me certainly deserved another season, as much as I like Davison's tenure as it stands - and indeed Peter did regret not having a 4th season in the end.

[Glenn A]

Originally Posted by DavetheScot

One reason for declining viewing figures in series 18 might have been a change to an earlier time. Previous series had tended to be shown in a post-6pm slot, but series 18 was about 5.10. It's less likely that people who were doing something on Saturday afternoon would get back (and video recorders were still not so common).

Also the standard of the scripts seemed to falling and he had the rubbish Adrec as a companion( Tegan wasn't too hot either, but seemed to do better with Peter Davidson). From 1974 to 1980, though, Tom Baker never had a bad story.

[DavetheScot]

Originally Posted by Glenn A

From 1974 to 1980, though, Tom Baker never had a bad story.

He really did. Revenge of the Cybermen and Destiny of the Daleks were abysmal, and a good few others weren't much better.

[CELT1987]

Originally Posted by Glenn A

Also the standard of the scripts seemed to falling and he had the rubbish Adrec as a companion( Tegan wasn't too hot either, but seemed to do better with Peter Davidson). From 1974 to 1980, though, Tom Baker never had a bad story.

Underworld,Invasion of Time,Horns of Nimon....

[AdelaideGirl]

Underworld was impressive for what could be done on 10p and a few bits of string...Destiny of the Daleks doesn't have any excuse.

Although to be honest I love them and their crappiness.

[daveyboy7472]

Originally Posted by TimeMyRelative

Hmm... poor old JNT and his dynamic opening season getting a real slating here. As I said in another thread I actually place S18 as his 3rd strongest overall. S12 may have had that position if Zygons was the closer as first planned.
Yes Tom is very different but still magnetic in spite of his grey mood, and it fits the season long theme of decay and decline.
Bidmead for me certainly deserved another season, as much as I like Davison's tenure as it stands - and indeed Peter did regret not having a 4th season in the end.

I think in terms of Season 18 itself JNT can't really be slated as he made it fresh and original and updated all the effects though he went a bit OTT in his first story, The Leisure Hive.

I think the show did need updating for the 80's. It had had had the same title sequence since Baker started in 74, the humour had got a bit OTT as well in Season 17(though I did enjoy that) but there was no doubt it needed cutting down a bit and yes, JNT got the dramatic emphasis back in the show like it used to be.

As has been said already, though, it was not only the humour of the 4th Doctor he cut down but the humour in the show itself. Despite a few odd scenes there was no balance between the two and this continued right through the Davison Era as well. I think the joy of watching Doctor Who even in the New Series is that there is a nice balance between the two, summed up by the character of The Doctor himself who can quickly switch from one to the other.

That didn't happen with Baker or the Series in Season 18 and it isn't slating JNT as such, it's pointing out that this was one of the first mistakes he made when he took over the show. Imo.

[meglosmurmurs]

I'm glad he did season 18 as it showed that the 4th Doctor can do Dr Who in the 80's with a more modernized style. No other Doctor has done 2 different decades.

Plus it contains some of Dr Who's most fascinating and intriguing stories. I think only Meglos lets the side down a bit, not me but the story.

I think it's his strongest season since season 14.

[DavetheScot]

Originally Posted by AdelaideGirl

Underworld was impressive for what could be done on 10p and a few bits of string...Destiny of the Daleks doesn't have any excuse.

Although to be honest I love them and their crappiness.

I don't mind cheap sets. What was wrong with Underworld was that it was dull.

[TimeMyRelative]

The general consensus in this thread seemed rather JNT but maybe I am letting my experience of fandom in general looking to him as the reason the classic show finished get in my mind a bit.

Nice to see someone with a soft spot for meglos with the username reflecting this! I can't pretend it's more than average, but of course the most fun average that DW specialises in!

[Dave3622]

Originally Posted by Corwin

Watch the Third of these adverts the two of them did for Prime Computers.

It was cool watching those adverts, however the fourth one spoiled things a little by having the Doctor answer to the name 'Doctor Who'.

[JohnnyForget]

Originally Posted by Glenn A

From 1974 to 1980, though, Tom Baker never had a bad story.

Originally Posted by DavetheScot

He really did. Revenge of the Cybermen and Destiny of the Daleks were abysmal, and a good few others weren't much better.

I have to agree with Dave. Tom had several bad stories (imo), but because he was so magnificent and a real joy to watch in the role, those stories' lack of quality really didn't really matter.

[allen_who]

Dont know why Destiny of the Daleks is considered so bad myself. I found it very watchable wherea 'The Sunmakers' and 'Underworld' were a borefest

As for 'The Invasion of Time' ... clearly they made the script up as they were going along. What a mish mash

Some of the 'Key to Time' season were a struggle for me too. The Power of Kroll was terrible (for me) despite being written by R Holmes

[meglosmurmurs]

I agree that Destiny of the Daleks is good viewing, if you're looking for a bit of light-hearted entertainment.

I suppose what may be hard to take is such an important story being so light-hearted, it's Romana's regeneration story (which I must admit should have been taken a bit more serious I think) and it's the return of the Daleks and Davros (after they were last seen in the incredibly powerful and brutal Genesis of the Daleks).

[DavetheScot]

Originally Posted by allen_who

Dont know why Destiny of the Daleks is considered so bad myself. I found it very watchable wherea 'The Sunmakers' and 'Underworld' were a borefest

As for 'The Invasion of Time' ... clearly they made the script up as they were going along. What a mish mash

Some of the 'Key to Time' season were a struggle for me too. The Power of Kroll was terrible (for me) despite being written by R Holmes

I agree about Underworld; very dull. But I found The Sunmakers a lot of fun.

The Invasion of Time; well, as I said on the thread on that story, I can see why they thought that the Sontarans and Gallifrey (both fine in earlier stories) would be gold, but somehow they forgot that those stories worked because of good stories, scripts and acting, none of which were on evidence here.

The Key to Time series started really well; I liked all the first three stories. If I wasn't so enamoured of Androids of Tara, at any rate Peter Jeffrey was a first-rate villain. But the last two weren't very good.

[DavetheScot]

Originally Posted by meglosmurmurs

I agree that Destiny of the Daleks is good viewing, if you're looking for a bit of light-hearted entertainment.

I suppose what may be hard to take is such an important story being so light-hearted, it's Romana's regeneration story (which I must admit should have been taken a bit more serious I think) and it's the return of the Daleks and Davros (after they were last seen in the incredibly powerful and brutal Genesis of the Daleks).

See, I like a light-hearted story that's just entertaining. Horns of Nimon, for all its flaws, is great fun if you approach it in that spirit. But Destiny of the Daleks doesn't really strike me like that at all. It's not just poor, it's boring.

[JCR]

Originally Posted by DavetheScot

See, I like a light-hearted story that's just entertaining. Horns of Nimon, for all its flaws, is great fun if you approach it in that spirit. But Destiny of the Daleks doesn't really strike me like that at all. It's not just poor, it's boring.

The problem with Destiny is it was a no doubt serious in tone Terry Nation script that was rewritten over a weekend by (a presumably drunk) Douglas Adams, and then likely was made even more jokey by Tom. As a result Destiny doesn't know what it wants to be, and doesn't work at all.

Nimon is far superior as it knows it wants to be a pantomime and works on that level

[Jon Ross]

Originally Posted by Glenn A

Also the standard of the scripts seemed to falling and he had the rubbish Adrec as a companion.

I agree Adric was a bit rubbish, but Season 18 didn't have a script - or production - quite as bad as The Horns of Nimon.

Originally Posted by Glenn A

From 1974 to 1980, though, Tom Baker never had a bad story .

Can you lend me your rose-tinted spectacles when you're finished with them?