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Why Does Line Rental Feel Like A Con?


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Old 27-01-2013, 15:16
koantemplation
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Not sure what it is, but whenever they do deals for Broadband or phone packages, they never include line rental on the price, and is nearly always in small print.

Why do we pay line rental in the first place?

Surely it should be part of the price of either having a phone or BB?
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Old 27-01-2013, 15:33
Pretinama
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Well, I suppose it's a bit like 'water rates'...
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Old 27-01-2013, 15:41
Nigel Goodwin
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Not sure what it is, but whenever they do deals for Broadband or phone packages, they never include line rental on the price, and is nearly always in small print.

Why do we pay line rental in the first place?

Surely it should be part of the price of either having a phone or BB?
It's a separate charge for a separate reason - and very often nothing at all to do with your ISP.

Basically the call charges pay for the calls you make, the ISP charges pay for the data transferred over the Internet, and the line rental pays for the physical infrastructure making it possible.
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Old 27-01-2013, 15:43
koantemplation
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It's a separate charge for a separate reason - and very often nothing at all to do with your ISP.

Basically the call charges pay for the calls you make, the ISP charges pay for the data transferred over the Internet, and the line rental pays for the physical infrastructure making it possible.
Yes but you don't pay for having a line if you don't use it.

You only pay when you have either BB or a landline.

It should just be included in the cost of the package you buy.

It is misleading when they say '5 a month for BB' and then say 'Oh and by the way 15 for line rental'.

Why not just say 20.
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Old 27-01-2013, 15:47
Richard1960
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Yes but you don't pay for having a line if you don't use it.

You only pay when you have either BB or a landline.

It should just be included in the cost of the package you buy.

It is misleading when they say '5 a month for BB' and then say 'Oh and by the way 15 for line rental'.

Why not just say 20.
OFCOM should make then do this for reasons of clarity.
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Old 27-01-2013, 15:49
koantemplation
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Well, I suppose it's a bit like 'water rates'...
But we don't pay line rental for Electricity.

I think most people would understand that water pipes need more maintenance than Electricity or Phone lines, and the charge is clear on the bill.

I just don't understand why line rental isn't inclusive in the bill. do some people not pay line rental?
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Old 27-01-2013, 16:05
Dan Sette
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But we don't pay line rental for Electricity.
It's called a standing charge.
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Old 27-01-2013, 16:09
koantemplation
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It's called a standing charge.
I've just checked my Electricity bill and I only pay for Electricity used, there is no other charge.
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Old 27-01-2013, 16:31
Stig
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I've just checked my Electricity bill and I only pay for Electricity used, there is no other charge.
Many electric bills do have a standing charge pus the units used. Gas bills too. If you aren't paying the standing charge then they've just lumped the fees into the unit costs.

A lot of people still use BT for their phone (boo!) and a different ISP for their broadband, so I suppose it still makes since to have the two charges separate.
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Old 27-01-2013, 16:36
Tal'shiar
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Because BT are rip off kings and have been for 2 decades. Your paying for the optical roll out as well, even if you never use it or go with someone else. Imagine if Ford demanded taxes be used to create new cars as the old ones are rubbish. You would say "do your own work if you want to stay up to date". Then imagine Ford have been taking taxes for years, and tax breaks for no work whatsoever. And than add in that they get paid a % for every breakdown (line repair) they do from the taxes as well. Thats BT, disgusting.

Also, whats a megabit? only computers measure data in megabytes, something which is different.

Here, buy this new car, it travels 400 merps per moment, thats fast isnt it! go on buy it, look at the merps per moment, you cannot beat that level of speed. It makes no sense and is only used to confuse people with nothing claims of stats that are not used in the real world.
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Old 27-01-2013, 16:55
stewM
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Just a little bit paranoid!
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Old 27-01-2013, 17:39
1andrew1
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Because BT are rip off kings and have been for 2 decades. Your paying for the optical roll out as well, even if you never use it or go with someone else.
Line rental prices are set by Ofcom, not BT so none of the subsequent comments which whilst amusing are relevant. You should be grateful that Ofcom determines the line rental costs. In Ireland the monthly cost incl VAT has been set at 25.78. (about 22)
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Old 27-01-2013, 18:04
Old Dude
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Also, whats a megabit? only computers measure data in megabytes, something which is different.
Internally, bytes, which consist of 8 bits, are the basic building blocks of data within a PC. If those bytes need to be transmitted over a network, the bytes have to be split into their component bits and they are then sent serially down the line. At the other end they are de-serialised and reconstituted as bytes. However so that things don't get totally screwed up in the process, there are further bits inserted to enable the control and interpretation of the transfers. That involves the transmission of more bits. There isn't a one to one correspondence between the number of bits that form the data and the number of bits sent over the network. Megabits per second are a transmission rate. Megabytes are a measure of an amount of data.
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Old 27-01-2013, 19:09
Tal'shiar
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Internally, bytes, which consist of 8 bits, are the basic building blocks of data within a PC. If those bytes need to be transmitted over a network, the bytes have to be split into their component bits and they are then sent serially down the line. At the other end they are de-serialised and reconstituted as bytes. However so that things don't get totally screwed up in the process, there are further bits inserted to enable the control and interpretation of the transfers. That involves the transmission of more bits. There isn't a one to one correspondence between the number of bits that form the data and the number of bits sent over the network. Megabits per second are a transmission rate. Megabytes are a measure of an amount of data.
I know this, but why involve all the extra "useless" information that serves only to confuse the average customer. And that transmission rate should be reflected in the amount of data.

Like I have an 8mb connection, which tops out at 6mbs, but the actual data transfer speed is about 700-800kbs. The added info just looks larger, and thats the exact reason they use that one.

Like in my car analogy, you measure in MPH and the speed is reflected in that. Its an extra layer to do one in MPH and the other meters per hour. Its just overly confusing and serves no one. But ISPs always use the larger sounding number in order to sound better.

Thats before we get into the whole "possible speeds" crap they push about. An old Micra "could" travel at 300mph if it was fired out a cannon, but in reality it never will. a 16mb BB connection will never reach speeds close to that, never. Yet they get around it saying "possible" speeds.
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Old 27-01-2013, 20:25
littleboo
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I've just checked my Electricity bill and I only pay for Electricity used, there is no other charge.
Do you pay more for the first x units ? That's your standing charge disguised.
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:17
koantemplation
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Do you pay more for the first x units ? That's your standing charge disguised.
Yes the first 174kWh are charged at a slightly higher rate.

I suppose they have to advertise the line rental separately as some people might have phone and BB by separate suppliers.
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Old 27-01-2013, 22:41
moox
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Because BT are rip off kings and have been for 2 decades. Your paying for the optical roll out as well, even if you never use it or go with someone else. .
Life isn't fair, you pay for a lot of things you may never use. I don't use public libraries and I haven't used the NHS for 8 years but I still pay for them.

If you sign up to any fibre product, even if it isn't from BT (but except Virgin), it uses BT's fibre network. So don't assume you will never use it.

Like I have an 8mb connection, which tops out at 6mbs, but the actual data transfer speed is about 700-800kbs. The added info just looks larger, and thats the exact reason they use that one.
Surely 800kbytes/sec looks better than 6Mbits? It's a bigger number and that's surely better for advertising.

Like in my car analogy, you measure in MPH and the speed is reflected in that. Its an extra layer to do one in MPH and the other meters per hour. Its just overly confusing and serves no one. But ISPs always use the larger sounding number in order to sound better.
So? What difference does it really make? It doesn't change the performance of the connection.

Thats before we get into the whole "possible speeds" crap they push about. An old Micra "could" travel at 300mph if it was fired out a cannon, but in reality it never will. a 16mb BB connection will never reach speeds close to that, never. Yet they get around it saying "possible" speeds.
They say "possible" speeds because there is so many variables and unless you're paying for a leased line with an SLA they can never guarantee anything. Hence "up to" and "possible".

I'm sure a 16Mbit connection connecting at 16Mbit, and assuming no congestion or other issues, will attain throughput close to 16Mbit.
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Old 27-01-2013, 23:30
Tal'shiar
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Life isn't fair, you pay for a lot of things you may never use. I don't use public libraries and I haven't used the NHS for 8 years but I still pay for them.

If you sign up to any fibre product, even if it isn't from BT (but except Virgin), it uses BT's fibre network. So don't assume you will never use it.

No because I live in a rural area which has no fibre optic, and no real plans to have any in the future.


Surely 800kbytes/sec looks better than 6Mbits? It's a bigger number and that's surely better for advertising.

Dont be cocky, 6mbs is a bigger number in this regard, as well you know. Its a faster looking number is my point.

So? What difference does it really make? It doesn't change the performance of the connection.

It does if someone expects the thing that was advertised, only to realise that it doesnt work that way at all.


They say "possible" speeds because there is so many variables and unless you're paying for a leased line with an SLA they can never guarantee anything. Hence "up to" and "possible".

I'm sure a 16Mbit connection connecting at 16Mbit, and assuming no congestion or other issues, will attain throughput close to 16Mbit

Actually no, it couldnt be done. Even if you cleared the line and had perfect conditions, the way BT has set up the line network means it will never really hit that number, even in a perfect situation, even if you convert the numbers correctly as well.
I suspect as well you are just trying to be cocky and not really accepting the facts. They lie because it serves them to earn more money that way. A few times ISPs have been brought to task on the mental levels of adverts they put out, and the clear lies they continue to use. Just recently BT got a slapped wrist for the fibre optic roll out checker being complete bullshit.
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Old 28-01-2013, 00:40
Kolin Klingon
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"Why Does Line Rental Feel Like A Con?"

Because it is!

It goes way back to when you rented a phone and paid a charge for the line rental, even when it was all the same (GPO) company.

People are used to it and so they are not going to drop it if people still think it's normal.

Like coffee in the 70s - dirt cheap as most drank tea and then there was a shortage and the price went through the roof - But when the shortage was over, they looked and saw that idiots were still prepared to pay silly prices for it and so it never did go back down again.

And Sky TV - they just keep adding on thing and hiking the prices up and up and up and yet people still pay it. SO they ain't going to refuse to take anyone's money.

I think no however that under the advertising standards, cost of broadband should clearly state the inclusive price with Line Rental as you can't get it without. Sky keep advertising that my broadband only costs me 7.50 a month, but the Line Rental is 14.95 and I don't use the phone side of it at all ever. So my broadband actually costs 22.45! That's a bit different from the 7.50 that they advertise it at.

So yes! It's one big con.

PS to get it at 7.50 you HAVE TO take sky Talk thingy so why don't they state that in the price?
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Old 28-01-2013, 07:12
neo_wales
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You need the line for broadband or telephone or both...you need to rent it. It is separate from the broadband service you pick.
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Old 28-01-2013, 08:51
moox
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I suspect as well you are just trying to be cocky and not really accepting the facts. They lie because it serves them to earn more money that way. A few times ISPs have been brought to task on the mental levels of adverts they put out, and the clear lies they continue to use. Just recently BT got a slapped wrist for the fibre optic roll out checker being complete bullshit.
I'm not accepting what you say, that doesn't mean I don't accept the facts.

You may live in a rural area but that doesn't mean you'll never get it - I am in a rural area too, and I have it.

I would say 700 is a larger number than 6. The average person doesn't know what an Mb means in relation to kB or Kb but they do have an idea of our numbering system. So if an ISP wanted to be misleading then they'd surely sell it that way,

The thing that was advertised is the thing they're getting. It's like buying in imperial and it being measured in metric - it's equivalent, but it looks different. With internet connectivity you can never guarantee anything.

You *can* hit the speed that is advertised, in theory. The connection speed is the advertised speed and it doesn't account for overheads - if you looked at the speed your modem is transferring at (as in what it is actually sending or receiving from the phone line), and not the speed your download manager is reporting, you'd find that it is roughly accurate. It's roughly equivalent to your computer sending data with an envelope of a particular size (with the IP protocol) and the phone line requiring one of a larger size (the ATM protocol), so any smaller envelopes have to be stuffed into a larger one.

I think the likes of BT have started to account for this in their most recent marketing. They sell a fibre product at "76Mbit/s" but the maximum speed the modem will connect at is actually 80Mbit/s.
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Old 28-01-2013, 08:57
moox
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"Why Does Line Rental Feel Like A Con?"

Because it is!

It goes way back to when you rented a phone and paid a charge for the line rental, even when it was all the same (GPO) company.

People are used to it and so they are not going to drop it if people still think it's normal.

Like coffee in the 70s - dirt cheap as most drank tea and then there was a shortage and the price went through the roof - But when the shortage was over, they looked and saw that idiots were still prepared to pay silly prices for it and so it never did go back down again.

And Sky TV - they just keep adding on thing and hiking the prices up and up and up and yet people still pay it. SO they ain't going to refuse to take anyone's money.

I think no however that under the advertising standards, cost of broadband should clearly state the inclusive price with Line Rental as you can't get it without. Sky keep advertising that my broadband only costs me 7.50 a month, but the Line Rental is 14.95 and I don't use the phone side of it at all ever. So my broadband actually costs 22.45! That's a bit different from the 7.50 that they advertise it at.

So yes! It's one big con.

PS to get it at 7.50 you HAVE TO take sky Talk thingy so why don't they state that in the price?
Some of us don't buy phone and broadband from the same company. I would rather the prices and choices reflected the price of the actual service (broadband) and not something you probably have anyway (a phone line).
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Old 28-01-2013, 09:13
tghe-retford
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BT now also charge if you don't make enough phone calls on your line a month, upping the line rental price to counteract those people who are using their mobile phone operators inclusive calls and/or those whom use their line purely for broadband.

I moved my line rental from BT to Primus for this reason.
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Old 28-01-2013, 09:57
TeeGee
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I've just checked my Electricity bill and I only pay for Electricity used, there is no other charge.
Maybe so but even without the "Standing Charge" you will pay at a significantly higher rate for, say, the first 225 KwH used per quarter so if you use it at all you get shafted by higher prices.
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Old 28-01-2013, 10:07
moox
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BT now also charge if you don't make enough phone calls on your line a month, upping the line rental price to counteract those people who are using their mobile phone operators inclusive calls and/or those whom use their line purely for broadband.

I moved my line rental from BT to Primus for this reason.
Is that the "free" caller ID thing? The threshold is pathetically low, something like 5 chargeable (or inclusive) calls per month or something. They've done that for years.
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