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Why Has the Gay Marriage Issue Exploded ?


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Old 03-02-2013, 15:39
marjangles
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Well it's not technically a revolt as it's a free vote but getting yourself into a position where a hundred or two of your own MPs are against you isn't the cleverest way to run your politics! And he may live to regret it, the Tories can be a bloodthirsty lot against their own leaders, when their hackles are raised!

Might not be a bad thing either...
Someone else earlier in this thread I think said that Cameron is after a legacy. I don't think his position is unsafe over this issue but I also don't think he'll be PM after the next election and I don't think he does either.
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Old 03-02-2013, 15:45
jackthom
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All such laws have to have some basis in morality, which is in the final analysis, arbitrary, trying to judge the impact on others doesn't,t change that since such a judgement must still be rooted in moral concerns e.g. what is a good impact and what is bad, is the impact on one person outweighed by an impact on a greater number etc.
Yes I can go with that.

I'm now hoping someone else will finally explain the negative impact SSM will have on those who AFAICS won't be forced to have anything to do with marrying someone of the same sex.
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Old 03-02-2013, 15:47
WeeblesWobble
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I asked my MP Anna Soubry (Conservative) about it - she said she is voting in favour and wished me and the bf luck for the future Nice response.
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Old 03-02-2013, 15:53
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Yes I can go with that.

I'm now hoping someone else will finally explain the negative impact SSM will have on those who AFAICS won't be forced to have anything to do with marrying someone of the same sex.
Good question

Personally, I have no problem with gay marriage (although neither is it at the top of my concerns). However, I can't help but feel that the other restrictions we have on marriage are every bit as arbitrary as this one, yet mention close relatives getting married and suddenly everyone feels they have the right to impose their values on others. Its all a bit odd IMO.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:07
dip_transfer
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Thanks for all those points but not sure I'm any clearer. I thought a ''marriage'' involved people of opposite sexes ?
It did for a couple of thousand years or so, But things change, some same sex couples want a slice of it aswell now.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:09
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It wasn't in the Tory manifesto, it wasn't in the Queen's speech and until a few weeks ago you hardly heard anything about it in the media.
Now I hear Tory MPs are in revolt over gay marriage, Cameron's position is in jeopardy, teachers are threatened with the sack if they don't teach it (do they teach heterosexual marriage ?) and all sorts of pressure groups are jumping on the bandwagon.
I can't see there has been any significant development in the actual issue so why has it suddenly burst upon the scene ?
Equality is a very pesky thing isn't it. Meh.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:14
lala
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Conservatives showing their true colours more like it. They should never have made such a fuss about it, should have passed it through parliament without any fanfare. Instead they are harping on about how gay marriage is "undermining" straight marriage?!?

Like how the f**k is it doing that?
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:20
jesaya
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Conservatives showing their true colours more like it. They should never have made such a fuss about it, should have passed it through parliament without any fanfare. Instead they are harping on about how gay marriage is "undermining" straight marriage?!?

Like how the f**k is it doing that?
Indeed, and as SSM is already legal in other countries, some just a few miles across the Channel, why are we not getting this negative impact already?
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:21
Keiō Line
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First, I find the idea that the views of a large proportion of people should be summarily dismissed to be utterly undemocratic.
When it comes to the passing laws you need to bring more to the table than "my god says...".

Second, what we are talking about here is morality. Morality cannot be proven, morality is not objective. No one can prove why polygamous marriages shouldn,t be allowed, or close relatives. We may rationally debate these issues and put forward ideas against them, as do those who oppose gay marriage, such as the idea that it would devalue marriage for example, but in the end, the foundation for everyone's morality is no less arbitrary and insubstantial than My God Says
Go ahead then. Please outline the moral arguments against gay marriage.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:27
marjangles
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Indeed, and as SSM is already legal in other countries, some just a few miles across the Channel, why are we not getting this negative impact already?
This is something that always confuses me. England and Wales will be something like the 15th country to legalise gay marriage (France, Uruguay and New Zealand will probably beat us and it'll be touch and go between us and Scotland) but so many of the people against talk as if we're the first.

If there are problems in these other countries caused by gay people marrying then they should be able to point to them, particularly in the Netherlands which has allowed same sex marriage since 2001.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:36
jesaya
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This is something that always confuses me. England and Wales will be something like the 15th country to legalise gay marriage (France, Uruguay and New Zealand will probably beat us and it'll be touch and go between us and Scotland) but so many of the people against talk as if we're the first.

If there are problems in these other countries caused by gay people marrying then they should be able to point to them, particularly in the Netherlands which has allowed same sex marriage since 2001.
Well, I don't understand why the location should matter - I mean no-one is saying that Dutch Marriage is somehow different to British Marriage - so any adverse impact of SSM in the Netherlands should already be impacting here.

I have posited in the past that perhaps distance might be a factor (like the effect of gravity) and that we should be looking at any impact in East Anglia and Kent to see if SSMs in the Netherlands and Belgium are causing married couples in Felixstowe or Ramsgate to feel 'less married' than those in more western towns.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:38
edEx
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^^ Cool idea. I suggest they also do the studies in the Shetlands, due to their proximity to Scandinavia.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:40
Keiō Line
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Well, I don't understand why the location should matter - I mean no-one is saying that Dutch Marriage is somehow different to British Marriage - so any adverse impact of SSM in the Netherlands should already be impacting here.

I have posited in the past that perhaps distance might be a factor (like the effect of gravity) and that we should be looking at any impact in East Anglia and Kent to see if SSMs in the Netherlands and Belgium are causing married couples in Felixstowe or Ramsgate to feel 'less married' than those in more western towns.
Haven't heard the "less married" argument for some time. The notion that a man and woman would somehow love each other less because a SSM couple live down the road,

Its quite pathetic. They haven't got the guts to come out with the real reason they don't want SSM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:31
davidmcn
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This is something that always confuses me. England and Wales will be something like the 15th country to legalise gay marriage (France, Uruguay and New Zealand will probably beat us and it'll be touch and go between us and Scotland)
Another reason why it would be daft for Westminster to delay it until after the next general election. The Holyrood Bill has cross-party support (I haven't heard of any significant grumblings among Scottish Conservatives or any MSPs who say they'll vote against it), so it'll probably be law later this year.

Which means that by the time of the next Westminster general election same-sex marriage will be well-established in Scotland, everyone will have seen that the sky hasn't fallen in, and people might think it a bit silly for English same-sex couples to have to go to Gretna to get married.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:40
Kolin Klingon
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The death-throws (of religion) are often very noisy.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:43
Kolin Klingon
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It clearly shows who is in the right when the resident homophobes on DS have nothing to say to back up their case and just run in here and post one-liners without any explanation.

If they had anything of any worth, value or validity, they would post it. They have nothing, zero, zilch, nada!
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:47
marjangles
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Another reason why it would be daft for Westminster to delay it until after the next general election. The Holyrood Bill has cross-party support (I haven't heard of any significant grumblings among Scottish Conservatives or any MSPs who say they'll vote against it), so it'll probably be law later this year.

Which means that by the time of the next Westminster general election same-sex marriage will be well-established in Scotland, everyone will have seen that the sky hasn't fallen in, and people might think it a bit silly for English same-sex couples to have to go to Gretna to get married.
There's a bit of grumbling amongst some of the more conservative elements of the SNP and from what I understand all but 2 of the Tory MSPs have indicated they'll vote against but Labour, Lib Dem, Green and SNP support will see the bill become law north of the border before long. There are inbuilt delays to all legislation emanating from Scotland though because the Parliament is unicameral.

The last thing Cameron wants is for this to be an election issue. If this is sorted by Summer or even if it hangs over until next year (a possibility if they have to use the Parliament Act) then it will be put to bed and no one can use the issue. Even UKIP aren't going to campaign on repealing same sex marriage. That's why the Tory local chairmen who wrote the letter urging Cameron to delay until after 2015 are idiots. The last thing they want is this hanging over them.
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:51
edEx
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That's why the Tory local chairmen who wrote the letter urging Cameron to delay until after 2015 are idiots.
I can't believe the media are making a big deal out of that. 22 constituency chairmen, out of 600-odd. What is that, 3% or so? Hardly a major revolt is it?
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Old 03-02-2013, 17:58
wonkeydonkey
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I asked my MP Anna Soubry (Conservative) about it - she said she is voting in favour and wished me and the bf luck for the future Nice response.
My MP is against. He's normally a good egg, but Catholics, eh?
I can't believe the media are making a big deal out of that. 22 constituency chairmen, out of 600-odd. What is that, 3% or so? Hardly a major revolt is it?
It's been annoying me all day that the BBC have it as their main news item. Any minute now someone from the ludicrous taxpayers alliance will say something and all the papers will report it in reverential tones as if they represented more than three people and a disappointed dog.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:07
JB3
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It wasn't in the Tory manifesto, it wasn't in the Queen's speech and until a few weeks ago you hardly heard anything about it in the media.
Now I hear Tory MPs are in revolt over gay marriage, Cameron's position is in jeopardy, teachers are threatened with the sack if they don't teach it (do they teach heterosexual marriage ?) and all sorts of pressure groups are jumping on the bandwagon.
I can't see there has been any significant development in the actual issue so why has it suddenly burst upon the scene ?
It's a distraction so that we dont notice the benefit cuts, the council tax cuts, the hounding of the disabled to get to work, the lack of any plans to build the 3 million homes we need, in my opinion.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:09
academia
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Thanks for all those points but not sure I'm any clearer. I thought a ''marriage'' involved people of opposite sexes ?
Hadn't you heard? Gay people are now in charge of defining family and marriage. Heterosexual and biology ae SO passe.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:09
DMN1968
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Never hear about it in the media?

Its constantly on the BBC website as it is one of their agendas they push down our throats, along with climate change and multi-culturism.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:12
Kolin Klingon
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Do they really think that it is going to go away if they don't vote in favour tomorrow?

They may as well pass it and get it into law ASAP as we will looked even more backward than we are as a country.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:42
Shadow2009
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I just can't believe gay marriage even warrants a discussion. We're in 2013 and the world has saw so many life changing things both positive and negative and there's so much more important issues in the world and yet here we are in the UK and gay marriage STILL isn't recognized. It's so infuriating that it even needs a discussion. What's to discuss? Two people love each other, is that not a good enough reason?

Jeez! I despair.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:48
edEx
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Never hear about it in the media?

Its constantly on the BBC website as it is one of their agendas they push down our throats, along with climate change and multi-culturism.
However the BBC Website, as well as the BBC broadcast news, has been very biased towards the anti-equality side of the debate. They have frequently spread misconceptions about the proposals as fact and have given much more airtime and webpage space to those against the changes without inviting the pro-equality side to respond . They frequently only interview those against, they highlight protests against without mentioning counter-protests for the proposals, up the objections of the religious groups that don't want the changes without mentioning those that are for, and generally sensationalise the entire issue.

I can't work out whether they are genuinely anti-equality in the same way UKIP or the Daily Telegraph are, or if they are deliberately trying to cause tension within the Tory Party. Either way, there is no impartiality in their reporting.
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